ISPCA- Your honest opinions

Whispered

No the Kildare society

luckat

Yes, they can be rude, and they can be incredibly stupid, and some of the people working in pounds and on the phone shouldn't have a job doing anything more taxing than pushing a broom.

But one good experience: I was walking by the river with a friend and our dogs a few months ago and we met two men, one of whom was talking on a mobile phone and both staring intensely across the river. One man looked homeless, the other like a fairly well-off tweedy dog-walk type.

We stopped and looked across the river too, and became aware of barking over there. "There's a dog trapped and he's barking for help - smart little dog!" said the homeless man, pointing, and we spotted the dog among bushes on the banks.

The two men called the DSPCA, and we all waited. After a few minutes, a van drew up and men got out and started scouting around, and we all shouted across the wide river and pointed at where the dog was.

The men made their way down the bank on the other side and into the water, and were obviously trying to reassure the dog and untangle him - it was too far to see, but it looked as if his collar had got tangled into the bushes.

They took him off with them, wagging like crazy. I hope they found his owner.

sebastianv

I applaud your sentiments summer in a bowl.
Until a few years ago I would have been one of those who expected the SPCA to jump to help me, I indeed thought it was my right. We had a problem with stray cats and kittens. Every year it was the same story they chose our garden to have their kittens in. Thought I had nothing better to do than DEMAND someone come out and take them away, I was arrogant to think this is what they did.
Then I got educated. And indeed where is the responsible owner ship. The lady from one organization who did come out and neuter not remove these cats said something very poignant. These cats or their "parents" were owned at one time, it's the failure of the human not to neuter that causes the problem. She also encourage us to think about keeping our own cats inside or building a run, that way our neighbours can't complain about cat poo, in their garden.

The pounds are spilling over with unwanted dogs and the majority of the according to my own research are unneutered. There are over 300,000 stray cats roaming in the Dublin area alone. How can one organization cope or make a dent in such figures, we can be quick to point the finger but slow to see the cause us the humans.
I wouldn't want to be a dog in a pound in this weather or a stray cat.
And I would not advocate to save them all, there are worse things for any animal than that kind of existence, but we must through education try and solve this pandemic problem.
Seb

I only had to deal with them once also and i was shocked by what i heard from the person who answered the phone. Some of you might remember the story were i bought a Ferret, it was advertised as a pet, but when i got it home it was far from a Pet. It attacted my girlfriend and she had to go to Hospital.
I called the ISPCA and told them situation and also told them that this guy is still selling these Ferrets as pets and somebody could get seriously injured.
First of all she asked what a Ferret Was ? ? I explained it to her and she said there was nobody there that deals with Ferrets and basically tried to get rid of the call. I refused to hang up that easily and demanded to speak to somebody that knows somthing . She eventually gave me another number to somebody who knew a little more then she did. She told me that she would take the ferret and put it down .
Again i was furious because that wasnt sorting out the problem. This ferret was being blaimed for somthing it doesnt know . In the end they could do nothing for me and i was discusted by the lack of knowlage of animals .

golden

As summer in a bowl as pointed out the ISPCA is a voluntary organisation.

Its the same old thing again people are very quick to critise something and not do anything about it ie volunteer.

doctor evil

Summer which ISPCA was that?, I`m in Dublin and would like to do it.

summer_ina_bowl

dre as in dray, firstly, you were speaking to a volunteer, they may have been as young as sixteen or they may have no knowledge of any other animal than dogs. i think it is ignorant of you to call their knowledge of ferrets into question as it was not them who blindly chose to purchase an un-tame one. it may have been advertised as a pet, but it was grossly negligent of you to have purchased it without confirming this. most ferrets are not frequently handled before homing, they require patient dedicated owners, who have the knowledge and time to tediously train them before they become "tame".

Secondly, you were angry that the ferret was euthanised? lmao, you were disgusted at THEIR lack of knowledge of animals? you purchased the animal. it was your responsibility. a ferret is hard work to tame, it is time consuming and can be costly.
you were unable to handle the animal. you're right on one thing - it wasn't the ferrets fault that your girlfriend was injured - it was yours. the ferret was euthanised because unfortunately rescue agencies do not have the time or money to pick up YOUR slack. a ferret is hard work to tame, it is time consuming and can be costly.
Also, if you believe the provider is falsely advertising/ selling dangerous stock, go to the consumer rights website and complain to someone with the power to take action against him.


Please, in future, if you are going to own a pet, be aware of the reality of pet ownership.



doctor evil, the spca I volunteer with is based in athlone - thanks for asking, its probably a bit far for you to travel but i'm sure one of the dublin shelters would be very grateful for your help.

Demonique

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

Secondly, you were angry that the ferret was euthanised? lmao, you were disgusted at THEIR lack of knowledge of animals? you purchased the animal. it was your responsibility. a ferret is hard work to tame, it is time consuming and can be costly.
you were unable to handle the animal. you're right on one thing - it wasn't the ferrets fault that your girlfriend was injured - it was yours. the ferret was euthanised because unfortunately rescue agencies do not have the time or money to pick up YOUR slack. a ferret is hard work to tame, it is time consuming and can be costly.

They never actually said the ferret was euthanised, they said the person told them they would take the ferret and put it down, but they never said that they actually gave the ferret to them and also said that euthanising the ferret wouldn't solve the problem
They did say that they could do nothing for them

summer_ina_bowl

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

Secondly, you were angry that the ferret was euthanised?

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

the ferret was euthanised because unfortunately rescue agencies do not have the time or money to pick up YOUR slack.

my bad, ahem

Guess they should read...

Secondly, you were angry that the ferret would have been euthanised?


the ferret would have been euthanised because unfortunately rescue agencies do not have the time or money to pick up YOUR slack.


apologies, dre as in dray - but the point doesn't change much!

and thanks demonique:)

Dublingirl23

summer_ina_bowl wrote: »

Many of the spca's get little or no direct help from the ispca, they actually have to pay the ispca for affiliation rights and insurance. i think many people are really hard on the smaller spca's and animal shelters. goverment funding is ridiculously mean and animals rights are based on trivial laws from hundreds of years ago. a large dog eats 10 euro worth of food a week. basic vaccinations cost 50 euro. required microchipping cost 30 per dog.f lea and worm treatments can cost 15 euro per month. it can cost 200 euro to get a large breed female spayed. a routine health check up costs 40 euro. a mild stomach bug can cost 80 in treatment. imagine the cost of this bug spreading through kennels housing thirty dogs.

imagine. your facilities are prehistoric. you have approx 30 dogs in your care at any one time. you re-home approx 90 a year. you recieve 10,000 gov funding per annum. i'm not a genius but those funds don't add up. you get up every day, and clean up after 30 dogs, you feed 30 dogs, you care for 30 dogs. you do this almost alone with just a few regular volunteers.

the spca's don't take in strays because their job is to alleviate suffering. sadly, for monetary reasons shelters cannot afford to take in every stray dog. yes, it is sad that many are put down in pounds but do not blame the people who have dedicated their whole lives to helping animals, do you know the love and devotion you need to have the strength to deal with horrific cruelty cases on a daily basis? cases so bad that you are ashamed to be human?!

don't blame these people.

blame the people who don't think that their pet is their responsibility. blame the people who take on pets that they can't won't look after. blame the education system that does not teach children the needs and feelings of animals. blame the government who'd rather pay for make up for their politicians than information for the public. blame the people who don't restrain thier pets - pets that get lost, injured and breed uncontrolled.

don't blame the small shelters, the little spca's - the people, the VOLUNTEERS who give up their time, money and emotions to care for abandoned, hopeless, shattered animals.


please, cut these people a break. if they could save every dog, cat, mouse etc - they would. do you know how hard it is to be the one to make a decision that you know will result in an animal being euthanised.

why do you feel that these people should be any more responsible for a stray than you? sure, they get funding for thr purpose but not enough to help every animal.

if you do not like what they do. ring up, offer your help, time, money, experience, opinions and ideas, campaign for more funding, raise awareness.


and when people criticise you, even though you give everything you can to your cause, tell them.... do something.

Excellent post SIAB, I agree with you. Maybe I put my post up wrong (my first one), In fairness, I do personally know the SPCAS staff, and they are good-hearted people. I really wanted to attack the goverment for not tackling this issue, head on.

I do hope to re-join the ISPCA soon, I started off as a volunteer as well. I throughly enjoyed giving the animals a nice long walk. All I can say is we, the public really need to take a stand, we need to push and push until animals are high up on the priority list.

nite11owl

littlebug wrote: »

I've rung them once when I saw a stray cat get hit by a car and drag itself by it's front legs (presumably paralysed) off under another car. it took me ages to actually get through to them but in fairness once I did they were out fairly quickly and took the cat away. This was in Rathmines though and I think they were based fairly close by.

Please get things right... if they came from Rathmines it was the DSPCA which is a totaly seperate run and funded SPCA.

nite11owl

Dublingirl23 wrote: »

Excellent post SIAB, I agree with you. Maybe I put my post up wrong (my first one), In fairness, I do personally know the SPCAS staff, and they are good-hearted people. I really wanted to attack the goverment for not tackling this issue, head on.

I do hope to re-join the ISPCA soon, I started off as a volunteer as well. I throughly enjoyed giving the animals a nice long walk. All I can say is we, the public really need to take a stand, we need to push and push until animals are high up on the priority list.

WELL SAID

The thing people have to remember is what SPCA stands for, it is to help animals that are being treated cruelly by there owners..!!!
so what part of STRAY,Ferrel cat, bird fell out of its nest, i have bats in my attic,i have just seen a stray dog hit by a car come out now and get it, etc etc does this come under cruelty????????

nite11owl

Dublingirl23 wrote: »

Thanks for all your honest replys. I agree with most of you. It's not entirely the ISPCA'S fault though. The goverment don't give them an awful lot of money to run their shelters off. I myself found it crazy that there is only 9-12 inspectors in the entire country (excluding DSPCA).

It does make me wonder, where the animals stand in this country, not very high up on the goverments list, by the looks of things.

I'm sorry to hear that some of you found the ISPCA rude, I always did my best to make sure that the animals interest was put first.

I did make enquiries into why there are only 12 inspectors. I want to become an inspector myself, but there is no training program for me to do so. I find this absurd.

Someone asked what the criteria is to get an animal into the shelter: Well i queried that too. It always seemed we were "full". In fairness though, there was a few times when the inspectors would bring in a vast amount of puppies and kittens from raids on puppy farms etc. It does make me wonder why more hasn't been done to perhaps open more shelters.

I know a lady who runs a shelter, and gets 20,000 euros a year from the goverment. She can't get any more money because she is not an ISPCA registered shelter. Crazy isn't it? When she did apply to them to see if they would help her out she was told "No". Yet she would take some of the animals from their shelters and re-home them herself.

All in all, it's not an ideal set-up at all. There is room for about 25 dogs and 30 cats at the ISPCA'S HQ. Not enough. The goverment need to wake up and cop onto the fact that animal abuse is huge here in Ireland. 12 inspectors cant cover 26 counties, its just not on.

The correct figure on inspectores for the country is:

DSPCA covering Dublin is 4 at present.
ISPCA covering a total of about 14 or 15 counties is 5
The other counties are then covered by voluntary
inspectores many of which have no formal training.

BlackCat2008

echosound wrote: »

unfortunately a lot of money goes to ridiculous things that would be well spent elsewhere. Payrises for politicians when the HSE is in a budget freeze is one that springs to mind immediately :mad: Don't get me started.

Thanks for the offer Dublingirl, I will talk to my relatives and see if the situation is still ongoing with them, and I'll PM you if I find out he's still got dogs, it's been a while since I was out visiting there, it's so good to see people trying to do their best for animal welfare, fair play to you.

Hope I can help here to, first of you need to find who covers that area, dog warden or ISPCA the dog warden has the right to remove animals if he believes that they are in danger and can get back up from the police, ISPCA can not gain access to any premises unless they are invited in and only then if they see enough prove they can ask for help from the warden or guards to remove the animals, if they can't gain access their is nothing they can do, heard that from the managers mouth from DSPCA ON Friday, problem??????? is they don't want to work with the wardens I gave them in a dog a while back (amazing they had a free space) and when I was up at Aston pound the following day and told them, they had a fit, why the hell don't they tell us, how do they expect cruelty to stop if they don't inform us where these dogs are coming from. You could try to get hold of the injunction papers and bring them to the police and tell them he is breaking the law worked for a while with travellers who were band from keeping animal for ten years then when new one's moved in they all claimed they were their animals:mad::mad::mad:

The trued of the matter is we are still working of 1918 laws and they no more have the right to remove an animal then you or I in fact we have more.

I removed 40 cats from a hoarders house a few years back and asked for there help, they said no because some of the cats had already been removed from the house, 10 were put to sleep and thanks to cat aid and cat protection I got some help financially to care for them and they and my vets helped to rehome them, I spoke to someone I know up there and they said because I removed them, they wouldn't get the publicity for it so it wasn't worth there while, there was no publicity and I didn't want it anyway if there was I'm happy to work quietly form the side lines, but he gave me his card if they could help in the future, won't hold me breath just in-case.

sorella

Our two cats came, along with a third sibling, from the filthiest, smelliest and most overcrowded "shelter" you could find. Cages in tiers; sick cats and a dead kitten everywhere... diarrheoa all over the floor. The three kittens had been in only three days; they were not quarantined and were in a bottom cage; no floors so everything could drip through.

It was an ancient cottage; the other room she told me waswhere the vet had been in thr previous day to neuter and spay; also filthy.

She begged - our three old cats had all died so I was able to rehome at least two - to take these three.

Within three days there were down with enteritis; a good private refuge it emerged knew all about this woman and had been trying to get her closed down.

We pulled three through at home; one died later with a heart defect

That woman was the county ISPCA, van and all... we reported her and asked them to do a surprise inspection. She then got a large grant so hopefully she cleaned her act up.

Now we always go through other agencies. when we see farm animals being mistreated an email to the dept of ag in Dublin works wonders.

We know; it varies from county to county. But we have tried many times when farm critters were involved etc and no action etc.

For us the critters come first and yes, in Ireland it is awful. Donkeys with feet like long Dutch clogs.... Dogs tied to logs 24/7

God reward all here for their caring....

Cole

I have been reading various threads on this forum and the confusion regarding the SPCA structure is widespread, but understandable.
nite11owl's posts have clarified some of this.

There is no such thing as ISPCA branches. The ISPCA does not have a branch structure.

There are numerous SPCA's around the country...DSPCA, LSPCA, GSPCA etc. etc. They are all independent, autonomous organisations. Some are merely affilliated to the ISPCA and some have nothing to do with the ISPCA.
In effect, the perceived notion of the ISPCA being the national body for animal welfare in Ireland is inaccurate.

The situation is an absolute mess. While there are very good local SPCA's and other welfare groups doing great work, the standards can vary hugely from county to county. So we have no common standards for staff/volunteer training, shelter construction and management, no common welfare policies etc. etc.

No wonder animal welfare in Ireland is such a non issue for government and the broader public.

kerrysgold

Does anyone know how a shelter can call itself an SPCA yet not actually be recognised by the ISPCA but still get a massive grant just because it's an "SPCA"?

Know of one that a) hardly ever responds to cruelty reports b) if they do check it out, the don't follow up c) are situated next door to a pound where nearly 2,000 dogs are put down every year and have empty kennels but don't help any of the dogs d) don't neuter/spay or vaccinate dogs before rehoming (even with the huge grant) and e) often have completly empty kennels.

I think it's a disgrace that so-called rescues like the one I know get a large grant and rescues who actually help hundreds of animals get the same or in most cases even less.

Jimkel

Underfunded, understaffed, underpayed, uninterested.

JA12

I've only had to communicate with the ISPCA once. I was shocked with the level of service available compared to the RSPCA.

I kept being told to contact local groups, not associated with the ISPCA, who in turn pushed me back towards the ISPCA, I got fed up with the "there's nothing we can do" response.

The problem as I see it, is that the organization is underfunded, too thin on the ground and has little interest in animal welfare in Rural Ireland.

My call related to a swallow trapped in an unoccupied house.

Our man in Havana

kerrysgold wrote: »

Does anyone know how a shelter can call itself an SPCA yet not actually be recognised by the ISPCA but still get a massive grant just because it's an "SPCA"?

Know of one that a) hardly ever responds to cruelty reports b) if they do check it out, the don't follow up c) are situated next door to a pound where nearly 2,000 dogs are put down every year and have empty kennels but don't help any of the dogs d) don't neuter/spay or vaccinate dogs before rehoming (even with the huge grant) and e) often have completly empty kennels.

I think it's a disgrace that so-called rescues like the one I know get a large grant and rescues who actually help hundreds of animals get the same or in most cases even less.

There are rescues that spay, neuter, vacinate and microchip that don't receive a red cent from the government. That is a fact. :mad:

As regards the use of the term SPCA, the name SPCA is not copyrighted or protected by a trademark and as such anyone can register the name SPCA on payment of a fee of €20 to the companies office. They will send you a nice cert and you are then free to run your SPCA. This is all legal and above board.

kerrysgold

That's ridiculous. SPCA should mean a well regulated shelter that actually takes in a large number of animals and fixes them up properly (worms, vaccinated, neuters/spays, microchips, assess animal temperament, proper bedding in kennels and home checks potential adopters) and they should be inspected themselves regularly to make sure they are using the grant for looking after the animals and nothing else.

Discodog

Some of you may not like this but it is an unescapable fact that the majority of Irish voters do not give a damn about animal welfare. That is the key & what's more it's unlikely to change. I moved here 6 years ago & the level of animal cruelty is definitely the worse thing about Ireland. I wonder if it relates to the catholic faith as Spain & Italy are also bad where as France & Germany are much better ?.
The RSPCA has millions because it is supported by the British people yet it was founded by an Irishman from Connemara !.

I am sure that one of the reasons that I am still single is because I share my small home with 2 big dogs !. In England girls would find that an attraction where as here women think that I am mad !

Whispered

On the subject of relationships, isn't it mad how someones views on animals can make such a big part of how you see them!

Cole

Discodog wrote: »

Some of you may not like this but it is an unescapable fact that the majority of Irish voters do not give a damn about animal welfare. That is the key & what's more it's unlikely to change.

I agree, but I think this a sympton of the apathy that we have as a people towards most things. We are great for moaning but abysmal at actually taking action. When it comes to the crunch, we don't give a damn about a lot of things. This traditional image of the Irish being fiery and passionate could not be further from the truth.

Discodog wrote: »

I moved here 6 years ago & the level of animal cruelty is definitely the worse thing about Ireland.

I have lived in England and definitely the standards of welfare are higher. An obvious example is the stray/unwanted dog problem...different world in the UK.

Many English people who visit or move here are struck by the obvious things that we have grown up with and have become somewhat immune to, e.g stray dogs, horses on estates, horse fairs (with little or no enforcement of any laws), inappropriate transit of livestock. These things are just not tolerated in England. We either fail to notice a problem, or sigh and think 'isn't that terrible'.

But I think that much of the problem here is that our standards are generally much lower. There are many instances of pre-meditated cruelty in the UK. I would argue that we are no worse in that regard, but definitely we have a major issue with poor standards of care...ignorance and indifference is our most widespread problem. Unfortunately when this indifference is common within the likes of the Gardai and Dept. of Agriculture (conscientious and dedicated individuals is not enough), you have an uphill battle.

Discodog wrote: »

I wonder if it relates to the catholic faith as Spain & Italy are also bad where as France & Germany are much better ?.

I've heard this argument before. As a Catholic, I am unaware of any teaching that tolerates or encourages cruelty towards animals. How would you apply that arguement to countries such as China and Korea, who have major welfare issues?

Discodog wrote: »

The RSPCA has millions because it is supported by the British people yet it was founded by an Irishman from Connemara !

It is ironic. Richard Martin also introduced the first piece of animal welfare legislation in the world in 1822.

Discodog wrote: »

In England girls would find that an attraction where as here women think that I am mad!

A bit of a generalisation, but I have noticed that difference also:(

BlackCat2008

[quote=Discodog;57472134}
I am sure that one of the reasons that I am still single is because I share my small home with 2 big dogs !. In England girls would find that an attraction where as here women think that I am mad ![/quote]

:D I found the same thing, my ex didn't mind that I rescued and he was fine with the animals but as soon as he thought we may have sorted a home of our own out, the rule book came out, I'm a carpenter and I can build blah blah blah outside. Needless to say it didn't work out, he was a good soul but being mugged for your corn beef sandwich for lunch and having your laces chowed of at 7 in the morning wasn't his idea of fun.

I have been thinking long and hard for a while now about starting a charity or reg. as i can't help those who are not aware I'm here and if they were it would cost a lot to keep up. I may have found a solution but I'm still working on the finer points, there is no help or anyone to stand up for the wild life in Dublin, and the dogs don't stand a chance in the pounds, and from what I've read on boards alone the rest of the country is no better.

I am aware of many great shelters around the country but I am sick of hearing them put one another down, you ring one and tell them you were in touch with another and they only have bad things to say and vica versa, I've stuck with helping two who feel the same way and it sadness us all that they are not willing to work together for the greater good of the animals.

Cole

BlackCat2008 wrote: »

I am aware of many great shelters around the country but I am sick of hearing them put one another down, you ring one and tell them you were in touch with another and they only have bad things to say and vica versa, I've stuck with helping two who feel the same way and it sadness us all that they are not willing to work together for the greater good of the animals.

Couldn't agree more. Imo one of the biggest reason for the poor profile that animal welfare has, as an issue in this country, is the politics.

The legislature make the law, the state authorities enforce it. The government can instigate new animal welfare policies/laws and more importantly, make them policy.

But can you imagine the reluctance of said people getting involved with or trying to liaise with the multitude of different groups...with varying policies, standards and sometimes agendas. It's like a minefield of bickering and point-scoring.

We are always going to have a number of organisations involved in any cause, but it's a mess in this country. The lack of unity here dilutes any kind of effective lobbying that is needed.

Our man in Havana

I agree with you 100%.

sorella

Amen to this. Yet always there are small groups doing sterling work; many are foreigners.

The cruelty we see appalls us.

No it is nothing to do with Holy Mother Church. The same happens in the North of Scotland in Presbyterian circles, and with every tradition.

Much is sheer ignorance and insouciance.

Discodog wrote: »

Some of you may not like this but it is an unescapable fact that the majority of Irish voters do not give a damn about animal welfare. That is the key & what's more it's unlikely to change. I moved here 6 years ago & the level of animal cruelty is definitely the worse thing about Ireland. I wonder if it relates to the catholic faith as Spain & Italy are also bad where as France & Germany are much better ?.
The RSPCA has millions because it is supported by the British people yet it was founded by an Irishman from Connemara !.

I am sure that one of the reasons that I am still single is because I share my small home with 2 big dogs !. In England girls would find that an attraction where as here women think that I am mad !

Discodog

It always baffles me when ignorance is used as an excuse for animal cruelty. There seems to be this notion that the accused didn't know that he was starving his pet or that it does hurt a donkey to have foot long hooves. This government will do most things to get elected & if they thought that animal cruelty was a vote winner they would legislate. If just one person received a 12 month prison sentence it would send a shockwave around the whole country. The RSPCA used to follow the practice of education & reform as do the Irish SPCA's. Now they have become much more proactive regarding proscecution following encouragement from the government. The hunting bill meant so much more than a ban on hunting.

I would totally agree that the numbers of different groups make action harder. There even appears to be division between individuals within SPCA's. Sometimes we can be fighting so hard for the welfare of our animals that we don't focus on being together as a group.

On the subject of animals & relationships I will start another thread !.

sorella

I am not excusing it in any way; please believe me on that.

Maybe ignorance is not the right word.
One example.
When we moved here, the man had recently died. He had had a collie, that he had never taken to. It was bought to try to alleviate the grief after his wife died. Always it was left alone here at night, often we are sure , tied up.
When he died, none of the family "could" take the dog in.
It was here almost always alone, always fed after a fashion, until we rented the house.
when we viewed the house, the dog was shut in a kennel in an outbuilding because they did nto want it running around while we were there. we were told it would be taken elsewhere
As we found a few days later, "elsewhere" was tied to a large weight by the ruined house up the lane. Fed once a day and never exercised.
Totally alone.
Of course, we asked if we could care for her.
She was being fed on white bread and tinned dog food and, collie, was so thin we thought she was part greyhound.
We have cared for her since; wormed her, had her spayed . She is well fed and shows for it.
when the family occasionally are here, they make a great fuss of her; how much they love her and miss her etc.
They still see her as "their" dog; yet when we leave here soon, we will of course be taking her with us.
What they did was cruel by any standards.
But they just do not see it; they would say they did all they could for her in the circumstances.
Is this ignorance?
They are decent folk, kind and generous... blind?

Discodog wrote: »

It always baffles me when ignorance is used as an excuse for animal cruelty. There seems to be this notion that the accused didn't know that he was starving his pet or that it does hurt a donkey to have foot long hooves. I would totally agree that the numbers of different groups make action harder. There even appears to be division between individuals within SPCA's. Sometimes we can be fighting so hard for the welfare of our animals that we don't focus on being together as a group.

On the subject of animals & relationships I will start another thread !.