Loaning horses

Bendihorse

Hey guys, I’m thinking of putting Ben out on loan for the rest of the hunting season as I don’t have time to ride him and he’s just wasting away in the field here... He loves hunting and is a very safe ride so I'm thinking of loaning him to someone in that sport. Iv advertised him on the galwayhorse.com website and had a few enquiries back...

I have expressed that the standard of care and stable management is one of my highest priorities and that I expect him to be looked after very well and that I would call to check up on how the partnership was working out on a fairly regular basis.

Are there any pitfalls that you can think of when coming to this sort of arrangement? The horse is fine where he is, has nice field of grass and there’s no problem with him staying there all winter, but id like if he was getting out and about as I think its a shame to waste him... Would I be crazy to put him out on hunting loan? Is it a bad idea?

Any opinions greatly appreciated! Ta x

fits

The BHS have draft loan agreements on their website. If I were you I'd look at filling one out with a prospective loaner so both parties know exactly where they stand.

I think its a good idea. He's a lovely horse.

TheB

Hi Bendihorse

Don't see why not.. you have in mind what you expect from a loan home and with the regular checks and visits I should think it'll be fine.. a friend who has loaned her horse while at Uni said - look for someone that you couold see yourself sharing a yard with.. i.e similar ideas of horses and keeping them.. and you can't go too far wrong..

Agree with Fits though about agreement.. BHS does have them. Defintely get one signed and although it's supplied for you (by the BHS) make sure it includes any caveats particular to your horse (feeding, specialist shoeing, insurance requirements etc etc ) and yourself (when you MUST be contacted, what happens in the event of Ben being in a life threatening situation through injury or illness etc - scary but it needs to be covered)..

You here a few horror stories about loaning but I have never witnessed anything like them.. and you know what it's like.. bad news travels faster that good news.. for every one bad story there are probably 100 good (untold) ones most loans go exceedingly well and I know people (both loaners & loanees ) who have have loaned their horses for years with no problems..

Good Luck

Bx
Good Luck

Bendihorse

Thanks Fitz and TheB, i have read over the BHS leaflet but cant seem to find the sample lone agreement, do you have links by any chance?

Im confused over the insurance issue too, hes not currently covered but thats because hes not involved in any risk activity at the moment in the field on his own - his worst enemy is grass and laminitis but even thats mostly gone now as the weather gets colder and grass scarcer...

But anyway, if hes going to be hunting i would prefer to have him covered for vets bills, the loanee says that she will be responsible for vets bills but for my own piece of mind in the event of an unthinkable situation its probablt best to have him covered... In that case should i pay the premium or should i ask her to take out a policy? Also im not clear if she falls off and has an accident, could i be held in anyway liable?

doctor evil

Does insurance for vet bills exist in Ireland?

fits

doctor evil wrote: »

Does insurance for vet bills exist in Ireland?

Yes it does I think, just not widely used. I asked my own vet about it (after my unfortunate February this year) and she thought that its not worth taking out a policy for a normal horse. If anyone has any more information about horse insurance in Ireland I'd be interested to hear about it. I doubt if any company would cover my 18 year old mare.

Anyway, heres a link to the BHS sample loan agreement. Its a pdf
http://www.bhs.org.uk/DocFrame/DocView.asp?id=190

Bendihorse, if your loaner takes out BHS gold membership, they will get public liability and rider accident insurance included.

TheB

fits wrote: »

Yes it does I think, just not widely used. I asked my own vet about it (after my unfortunate February this year) and she thought that its not worth taking out a policy for a normal horse. If anyone has any more information about horse insurance in Ireland I'd be interested to hear about it. I doubt if any company would cover my 18 year old mare.

My new horse when it comes will be insured.. the minis won't and I can't insure G as like your girl he is apprently too old .. he was always insured in the UK, for Vets Fees, Public liability etc etc - I'm not even sure my company (Petplan) had an age cut off limit.. they just make you join a veteran plan at some stage.. maybe 20 ? ..

I think it's worth every penny - even for an "ordinary" horse.. the one horse I had that was uninsured cost me thousands after a colic op.. never again..Insurance is available here.. you have to go through a broker and the main company that insures leisure horses here is SEIB (South Essex Insurance Brokers).. they have a good reputation in the UK for being easy to deal with and paying out promptly but they do exclude ruthlessly.. but otherwise they are pretty well thought of.

I have the number of a really helpful broker anyone needs it..

Bendihorse - as Fits says.. Gold Membership will sort the rider for public liability - as for horse insurance.. I would - if it's possible - want the horse insured for vets fees etc .. this is mostly the case with loaning as I know it and the loanee pays the premium. If they do it by monthly DD then it can be started or cancelled to suit the loan period.. Don't forget to ask for proof of cover, the policy details and to be named as the owner of the animal (possesion is 9/10th of the law! make sure your name as owner is all over everything! ) - insurance companies have provision for loan animals.

It prevents the situation where, ,god forbid, the horse gets injured and needs expensive treatment and the loanee can't afford it..and turns to you.. can you pick up the bill ? It's protection for you and the horse.

Insurance, IMO, is the way to go... if not for Loss Of Use or anything else but just to cover vet fees.. as you say - he takes part in a high risk sport so it may be worth it.

Sorry to be playing devils advocate but better safe than sorry - your loanee is probably a really nice person !!

Bx

togster

Hi Bendi-horse. Perhaps its a little too late to hire him out now. Because i guess he need to be gotten fit first and that should be part if your agreement. I would also suggest contacting someone in the hunt to let them know the offer is there. I could get you some numbers. PM me for more details.

Bendihorse

Thanks everyone

TheB, i have told her that i will require her to insure both herself and the horse. Is it possible that i can be held liable for her falling off my horse? Id imagine not when im not 'hiring' him to her for reward... Anyway, im not 100% certain on that. Could you give me the number of your broker and ill give them a call, i want to get Mandi insured too as shes a lot more delicate than Ben so i think it would be wise to have her covered!

Togster, this girl rides out/works with the North Galway Foxhounds. I told her that he is turned out at the moment and will need to be gotten fit before hunting and she seems happy enough with that. Shes <snip> and from Tuam, dont suppose you'd know her, her name is <snip>

When you say 'contact someone in the hunt to let them know the offer is there' do you mean in Roscommon hunt?

togster

Bendihorse wrote: »

Thanks everyone

TheB, i have told her that i will require her to insure both herself and the horse. Is it possible that i can be held liable for her falling off my horse? Id imagine not when im not 'hiring' him to her for reward... Anyway, im not 100% certain on that. Could you give me the number of your broker and ill give them a call, i want to get Mandi insured too as shes a lot more delicate than Ben so i think it would be wise to have her covered!

Togster, this girl rides out/works with the North Galway Foxhounds. I told her that he is turned out at the moment and will need to be gotten fit before hunting and she seems happy enough with that. Shes <snip> and from Tuam, dont suppose you'd know her, her name is <snip>

When you say 'contact someone in the hunt to let them know the offer is there' do you mean in Roscommon hunt?

Yes i mean Roscommon. Wasn't Ben loaned out last year to another Ben or the riding school? If its the same horse then id say you'll have no problem renting him out.

Bendihorse

He was loaned to <snip> from Ballygar, she was using him in the school at the time and i gave her permission to hunt him whenever she wanted and sometimes gave permission to kids/people from the yard to take him out for a day too.

Cant say for sure that there was ever a person also called Ben riding him but i dont think so! He wasn't out last season either, only the season before last and the one before that... Maybe not the same horse.

Oliver asked me would i sell him a few times but i dont really ever want to sell him, hence i was thinkin of loaning him out.

This girl is VERY keen to take him on, shes coming down on Saturday/Sunday to ride him so we'll see how that goes... If it doesn't work out ill look at loaning him to someone from Roscommon hunt. I know Michael Curley very well so i suppose i should have asked him first but to be honest i kinda put him on the website on a whim to see if id get any enquiries!

togster

Bendihorse wrote: »

He was loaned to <snip> from Ballygar, she was using him in the school at the time and i gave her permission to hunt him whenever she wanted and sometimes gave permission to kids/people from the yard to take him out for a day too.

Cant say for sure that there was ever a person also called Ben riding him but i dont think so! He wasn't out last season either, only the season before last and the one before that... Maybe not the same horse.

Oliver asked me would i sell him a few times but i dont really ever want to sell him, hence i was thinkin of loaning him out.

This girl is VERY keen to take him on, shes coming down on Saturday/Sunday to ride him so we'll see how that goes... If it doesn't work out ill look at loaning him to someone from Roscommon hunt. I know Michael Curley very well so i suppose i should have asked him first but to be honest i kinda put him on the website on a whim to see if id get any enquiries!

Yup thats the horse. Really excellent hunter!! Best of luck with the loaning.

Bendihorse

Have decided against loaning Ben out for hunting after having a good think about it over the weekend, id really hate if he got a permanent injury or something bad happened and hes not costing me anything or doing any harm where he is in the field and im sure given the choice of picking whether to stay out relaxing in the field for the winter or going hunting he'd pick the former!

After reading the prospective loanees bebo page (i think i was entitled to do a little bit of research) i found that she was telling people/friends that she was 'buying' the horse off me and had even gone so far as to say she was going to rename him! That did freak me out a little...

Anyway, i think i may go with my original plan and take a rescure horse on loan as company and winter them out. I can always use Ben as my happy hacker next summer when the evenings start to stretch again and perhaps take him out showing, i think he'd do very well in a lightweight/small hunter class...

togster

:eek:

Yeah thats a bit wierd allright! Probably a good idea not to loan him.

fits

Bendihorse wrote: »

i think he'd do very well in a lightweight/small hunter class...

I think so too. He's too nice not to have fun with.

Its great to have an older experienced horse to have fun on when you're bringing on a youngster too. Keeps the confidence up too.

Just a point - can we have less of the names of people on this thread please? Its not fair on them as they have no right of reply (unless they are boardsies, then you can use their usernames)

Togster, if you want to enquire about it, then please keep it too PM.

I for one would be pissed if details about what horse I was riding and what horse I was looking to rent were being discussed on the internet.

katiemac

May I make a few points.

Firstly, any loan agreements that apply under law in the UK may not have the same legal protection in Ireland. Legislation may not apply to such agreements n Ireland.
Secondly, there is no reason for anyone wishing to enter into an agreement with a loanee to utilise the services of a solicitor in Ireland to put the arrangement on a strict, legal footing.
Thirdly, as regards insurance, forget about it in Ireland. Insurance companies are very loathe to insure horses as they are classed as 'high risk' and the premiums might cost you more than the horse is worth.

togster

Deleted User wrote: »

Just a point - can we have less of the names of people on this thread please? Its not fair on them as they have no right of reply (unless they are boardsies, then you can use their usernames)

Togster, if you want to enquire about it, then please keep it too PM.

I for one would be pissed if details about what horse I was riding and what horse I was looking to rent were being discussed on the internet.

Sorry but i never mentioned anyones names except the horses and the guy who used to ride him first name. And there are 6 Bens who hunt there so...

fits

katiemac wrote: »

Firstly, any loan agreements that apply under law in the UK may not have the same legal protection in Ireland. Legislation may not apply to such agreements n Ireland.

True, but I linked to the loan agreements so that each party would know where they stand on potentially contentious issues.

Secondly, there is no reason for anyone wishing to enter into an agreement with a loanee to utilise the services of a solicitor in Ireland to put the arrangement on a strict, legal footing.

I dont understand what you're saying here.

Thirdly, as regards insurance, forget about it in Ireland. Insurance companies are very loathe to insure horses as they are classed as 'high risk' and the premiums might cost you more than the horse is worth.

Thats what I've heard, that its not worth it for horses that arent worth a lot of money, however TheB seems to think its a good idea to insure for vets fees, and seems to know as much as anyone else about the issue.

Togster - not every post refers to you.


Bendihorse, the post was primarily addressed to you. Can you in future write 'some guy, this girl, etc etc', it doesn't take away from the post and it keeps everyone (especially the admins) happy as even if you just give their first name, you are still naming a person, naming their hunt and the fact that they borrowed a horse. Ireland is a small place and its easy enough to figure these things out.

In future, if you want to know more about personal details, PM the person.

If you have an issue with this, take it to feedback or pm me.

togster

Deleted User wrote: »

Togster - not every post refers to you.


Bendihorse, the post was primarily addressed to you. Can you in future write 'some guy, this girl, etc etc', it doesn't take away from the post and it keeps everyone (especially the admins) happy as even if you just give their first name, you are still naming a person, naming their hunt and the fact that they borrowed a horse. Ireland is a small place and its easy enough to figure these things out.

In future, if you want to know more about personal details, PM the person.

If you have an issue with this, take it to feedback or pm me.

Fair point:)

Bendihorse

I dont have an issue with that zaraba, i guess i name drop a bit because i know togster knows these people and im not saying anything bad about them really just drawing connections... but point noted, ill keep the names off the forum in future.

Thats grand - think of it like this.

Posting the names is the same as standing up on a table in a crowded pub and shouting out that X wants to borrow me horse. Everyone can hear it, most people won't care, but a few will gossip (and probably get it wrong).

PM'ing is the same as whispering it into Togsters ear. No one else is the wiser.

TheB

A bit OT here and probably not applicable even as BH not loaning Ben now ( :eek: at Bebo page thing - Ben will be fine at home.. summer will be back soon and shows with classes for him will be around..:) ) but I read
the below and would like to comment..

May I make a few points.

Firstly, any loan agreements that apply under law in the UK may not have the same legal protection in Ireland. Legislation may not apply to such agreements n Ireland.

Have you read the loan agreement ? They are generic as far as I can tell.. as UK, Scottish & Irish laws are all different.. and the BHS operates in all of these (and more) countries.. Sensible people (I think anyway) would check to make sure it was all applicable though .. adjusting to local laws if neccessary..

Secondly, there is no reason for anyone wishing to enter into an agreement with a loanee to utilise the services of a solicitor in Ireland to put the arrangement on a strict, legal footing.

Eh ? do you basically mean there is no need for a loan agreement ? surely that is upto the person who owns the animal.. and tbh in this day and age of litigation/theft/legal wrangling and to protect my own interests (i.e my clear uncontested ownership of the animal at all times) I think it's very important to have an agreement and if necessary for anyone wishing to enter into an agreement with a loanee to utilise the services of a solicitor in Ireland to put the arrangement on a strict, legal footing
I personally wouldn't have a solicitor involved unless the horse was worth megabucks but each to their own..

Thirdly, as regards insurance, forget about it in Ireland. Insurance companies are very loathe to insure horses as they are classed as 'high risk' and the premiums might cost you more than the horse is worth.

Oh dear. The 8 brokers and 4 insurance companies I spoke to must have been wrong :eek: .. Admittedly insurance is not as common here as in the UK but is easily acquired through a broker as I have previously explained and premiums are comparable to the UK where 98% of horses are insured - it's totally commonplace.. ..As before - I will be insuring my new horse before it even makes the journey to it's new home (sorry Bendihorse -never saw your post re broker details - will PM you)...

I have also never paid more than a small % of the horses' value in premiums - which is b@gger all really.... i.e an advanced eventer valued at 30k (@41k euro) .. cost me £63.44 (@87 euro) per month to insure roughly 9 years ago-he is dead now (just had a look at an old premium!).. he wasn't insured for Loss of use though.. just vets fees and associated costs, public liability and mortality/disposal..


A show horse valued at 15k (@ 20k euro) with Group C cover - which includes Hunting/SJ/Eventing/Long Distance etc as well as Showing/Dressage etc cost £38.12 (@ 53 euro) per month.. was also insured for vets fees and associated costs, public liability and mortality/disposal.. this was in August this year.

For a 5yo IDx valued at 3k euro to have Group C insurance (as above) in this country I have been quoted 62.17euro a month.. marginally more than UK but I have to go through a broker so slight increase is probably from there.. I still feel it is worth it.. total yearly cost will be @750 euro.. this covers vets fees, public liability and mortality/disposal as before.. although vets fees here doesn't incl. homeopathic or alternative treatments etc but does cover surgical shoeing.. so not bad cover.. I was quoted this last Tuesday.

Those premium totals were more than any horse was worth? and although 2 are at the mid to higher end of the spectrum in value and the IDx (now) is not worth a lot - although in a few years he may well be... .. it's not about that though - my friend insures her £1500 cob for vets fees.. because she loves him.. nothing to do with his value..

Thats what I've heard, that its not worth it for horses that arent worth a lot of money, however TheB seems to think its a good idea to insure for vets fees, and seems to know as much as anyone else about the issue.

I'm no expert but as Fits knows from previous posts I will never have another uninsured horse. UninsurABLE maybe .. but not deliberately uninsured.. I never want to have to even think of having to make the decision between money and any required & possibly seriously costly veterinary treatment ..

I very nearly has to make that choice with a previous horse but thanks to an amazingly generous OH, a (sort of) understanding bank manager and a very very helpful veterinary hospital I escaped it.. but with a 8k (sterling) bill ... next time I might not have those lucky circumstances..

Insurance is there to make sure my horses always get the very best treatment there is should they need it - regardless of the state of my bank balance.. that alone makes it worth every penny for me..

Katiemac - if you would like any info about horse insurance in Ireland I would be HTH or to put you in touch with my broker as you seem to have been mis-led a little.

Bx