Microsoft Starts New Ban Wave on LIVE Against Modified Firmwares

coolhandc

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

You cant REALLY hit down on those that use pirating tbh, they save alot of money, and the internet provides an easy accesible base to get pretty much anything you need for free.

yes you can hit down on those that use pirating,they dont contribute anything to the games developers etc, and just because its easy to do something doesnt make it right.
its easy for someone to go and get a prostitute, but that doesnt make it right...

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

But come on honestly, if there was no xbox live to be banned from, everyone would have a cracked 360 like most people had cracked ps2/1 etc.

i dont agree with you there.its still illegal and if EVERYONE did have a cracked 360 then there would be no new games made because no one would buy there games any more.

TheDoc

doesnt stop them making football manager games when on day of release you can download for free, or any single player game for that matter.

you can get any software you want for free, but they still make them.

Because they know they will make money of those who arnt in the know and those that have strong morals.

We all do things in walks of live to save some money. I'm not defending it, but think it highly hypocrytical to completly slam them.

Everyone has pulled a little scam here and there.

coolhandc

but you cant get any software you want for free?not legally anyway.and i never heard of this day of release free download stuff?!
if everyone in the world were illegally copying these discs,then the companies who make them would be going bankrupt so they wouldnt have the funds to make more games.
so what were talking about here is a world were theres no gears of war, halo, fifa, whatever your favourite games are.
what would we do then?
yes we do like to save money,but this isnt saving money its stealing money.i fail to see the difference between this and going into a bank to rob cash.

its not hypocritical at all to be criticising these people,there is a difference between me wanting to save some money by going to tesco and getting cheap beer and those that contribute in no way to the manufacturing of these games by stealing them.

Retr0gamer

brim4brim wrote: »

People saying Ms aren't doing anything wrong are technically wrong. I don't have a modded 360 but people are entitled under law to play back ups of their games and its wrong for Ms to try to prevent that and to ban people from the online service for changing the console so it can play their legal back ups.

I'm very sure that it's illegal to play back-ups of your games even if you own the game.

Helix

coolhandc wrote: »

i fail to see the difference between this and going into a bank to rob cash

if i rob a bank i am taking physical money which the bank have on their premises. when i have taken the money, they no longer have it, its gone

if i download a game i am NOT taking anything from anyone, nobody is at physical loss. nor can you say that they are at a monetary loss in my doing so, because you cannot with any degree of certainty say that i would have bought the game if i did not have the ability to download it, therefore there is no loss of earning.

and again to personalise this for myself specifically, if i really like the game and it offers some online capabilities, i will then buy it for the ps3.

im aware that i am not everyone, nor can i speak for everyone. however for me personally, it is the case that in downloading games for the 360, im not depriving any companies of sales, because if the game is good enough, it will still be bought on the ps3, all im doing is penalising the makers of mediocre games by not parting with my money for duds

Helix

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I'm very sure that it's illegal to play back-ups of your games even if you own the game.

im pretty sure youre entitled to have one backup copy of any digital media you have paid for

humanji

I dont' think it is. If you bought something, then you can legally make as many copies as you want, but you can't give or sell those copies to anyone. Or at least, that's what I thought...

event

so, all the people on here giving out have never downloaded one song, one tv show, one movie, or watched a pirate DVD?

Nerin

so, all the people on here giving out have never downloaded one song, one tv show, one movie, or watched a pirate DVD?

Nope,that would be illegal,but would you trust the word of a pirate, lol
yarrr

TheDoc

yes you can make as many copies as you want of your own material. Legal 100% fact.

No one mentions here for fear of being banned.

As for day of releases, come out of your cotton ball world, you CAN get anything you want for free, without looking hard, not gna say how cause a) i will get in trouble b) i dont do it

But anything and everything for a pc or console gets cracked and you can get for free.

Helix

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

As for day of releases, come out of your cotton ball world, you CAN get anything you want for free, without looking hard, not gna say how cause a) i will get in trouble b) i dont do it

But anything and everything for a pc or console gets cracked and you can get for free.

also its very rare that it makes it out for free from these channels the day of release, its generally before that

thebman

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I'm very sure that it's illegal to play back-ups of your games even if you own the game.

No it certainly is not. Under EU law your entitled to make backups of software you have purchased and games/movies etc... are your software that you purchased.

The games/movie manufacturers encrypt it to try to prevent you from doing it and include license agreements with terms that would be thrown out in court to try to dissuade people but none of this can over write EU law.

You are entitled to play your back ups and there are plenty of sites dedicated to helping people do it that can't be shut down because of these laws but it doesn't stop these companies trying to infringe on consumer rights by trying to prevent you having backups so when they bring out their new movie player/music player, they hope to force you into repurchasing it all over again.

Read up more on DRM and unfair license agreements for your own sake. Microsoft's license agreements even lie about what users are allowed to do. Any term in a license agreement that says you can't do something that your legally entitled to do is null and void.

Fingleberries

Oh wait - just because you can get it cracked and for free, then it's OK.

If that's the case, I must apologise about all the pitiful arguements that everyone has made so far against downloading a illegal backups of games and playing them.
________________________________________________________________

You can't seriously think that just because it's available for free by some nefarious method that it makes it right or legal.

That's the same logic as theiving little scumbags that see a bike locked on the street and decide to nick it. The same as the young lads who see a blank wall as a blank canvas to graffiti on.

"Sure if they didn't want it nicked / written on, then why did they just leave it there"
"I mean the bike was just left there, I just had to apply a crack to the lock and it was free - no harm, no foul. Sure, they're probably insured anyway so they'll get the money back for it and what's the problem? Everyone comes out breaking even."

I saw earlier that someone defended the comparison between robbing money out of a till / from a bank by saying that doing that is robbing real money. Whereas there's no 'real' money being lost to piracy (or 'making a backup for personal use', as some call it).

Cobblers.

There is real money being lost, just because you are not handing over your money, does not equate to the same thing as the Software company, programmers, distributors and stores getting their fair dues. They don't spend millions researching, developing, coding, producing and marketing a game just so you can be happy. It's a business and they need to make a profit in order to continue in business.

They're hardly going to go "Lads, Joe90 on boards got a shady copy of the game off a dodgy site, but they really loved it. We're so happy about that, it makes the last two years of our effort worthwhile. Let's go home and have some fresh air for dinner. By the way, lads, P45's all around. Wahay!"

• As for those with the "I'm only doing this to see if I like it" ... What are demos for? Why not rent the game? How about borrowing it from a mate?
• If everyone is doing it, does that make it right? ... No.
• Just because you can do something, does that mean you should do it? ... No. If it's wrong, it's wrong. No matter how you may try to justify it.
• If it was legal and above board, why are people so furtive about it and all the web sites that offer links to these downloads so scruffy and hidden - and you need to have most of your Antivirus and stuff up to date just in case they try any nastiness?
  
• Stealing something is not the same as Saving money.
  
• Is it some consipiracy by Microsoft / Sony / Nintendo and all the game publishers? ... No.
• Are Games ridiculuously overpriced in this country? ... Hell yeah. If you don't like the price, then don't pay it. Shop around - look for a better deal elsewhere. Many of the top games are region free, and can be bought online for up to half the price of a retail outlet here. If you let the retail outlets know, after a while they may get the point if enough people make the point.

TheDoc

i never said it was right, i clearly said i dont support these actions.

Reference was to the post that said you cant

its interesting to view the numbers of illegal windows vista and xp used around the world, ill think youll find the numbers staggering.

And if you go into any net cafe that plays games, you think they bought the same game 20 times for each machine?

they all download the games and use key generators, or any cafe ive been in anyway.

only used for lan so thats how they work, try go online in most games and you cant, have to bring your own game cd key with you.

And i think people that say they dont download or use free software when they shouldnt, are liars to be fair. Everyone does it. Again doesnt mean its right, but there is no way of stopping it.

Why go pay 250 euro for a piece of photo shop software when you can get it for free?

And copyright hunters only go after people who upload, and even then its a certain upload cap they search for. they dont bother with average joe who downloads.

Its unfortunate, but then rightly so this boards facility does not allow conversations about illegal software etc.

But if we WERE allowed, youd be shocked to see the savings people make if you where in the dark about the whole scene.

Kazu

i never said it was right, i clearly said i dont support these actions.

Reference was to the post that said you cant

its interesting to view the numbers of illegal windows vista and xp used around the world, ill think youll find the numbers staggering.

And if you go into any net cafe that plays games, you think they bought the same game 20 times for each machine?

they all download the games and use key generators, or any cafe ive been in anyway.

only used for lan so thats how they work, try go online in most games and you cant, have to bring your own game cd key with you.

And i think people that say they dont download or use free software when they shouldnt, are liars to be fair. Everyone does it. Again doesnt mean its right, but there is no way of stopping it.

Why go pay 250 euro for a piece of photo shop software when you can get it for free?

And copyright hunters only go after people who upload, and even then its a certain upload cap they search for. they dont bother with average joe who downloads.

Its unfortunate, but then rightly so this boards facility does not allow conversations about illegal software etc.

But if we WERE allowed, youd be shocked to see the savings people make if you where in the dark about the whole scene.

your right warez allows people to test out software and dabble into stuff

i dont own a modded xbox 360 i buy my games 70 euro for a 4-5 hr game what a rip off



i do howerver download other warez

if it is good enough i will buy it

copyright laws are broken every day in may formats

there should be a fourm on boards which would allow boards user talk about warez and talk only no giving links to download files etc

Helix

Fingleberries wrote: »

Oh wait - just because you can get it cracked and for free, then it's OK.

nobody said that

Fingleberries wrote: »

If that's the case, I must apologise about all the pitiful arguements that everyone has made so far against downloading a illegal backups of games and playing them.

what arguements? people do it coz its free

Fingleberries wrote: »

You can't seriously think that just because it's available for free by some nefarious method that it makes it right or legal.

where did anyone say that?

Fingleberries wrote: »

That's the same logic as theiving little scumbags that see a bike locked on the street and decide to nick it.

no its not. if i download a game, nobody loses anything. if i steal a bike, the bike is gone, and the owner no longer has it

Fingleberries wrote: »

or 'making a backup for personal use', as some call it

you DO realise that people referring to that are ACTUALLY referring to making backups of their own games, as youre legally entitled to? theyre not talking about downloading anything

Fingleberries wrote: »

There is real money being lost, just because you are not handing over your money, does not equate to the same thing as the Software company, programmers, distributors and stores getting their fair dues. They don't spend millions researching, developing, coding, producing and marketing a game just so you can be happy. It's a business and they need to make a profit in order to continue in business.

you miss the point here. say i download game 'a', because i want to see what its like. there is NO sale lost there for the developers, because i wouldnt have bought it anyway. if i play it and like it, i WILL buy it on the ps3 if it has online gameplay, therefore, in my case (and as stated earlier, this is ONLY my case, i cant speak for everyone else) if the game is worth buying, itll be bought

Fingleberries wrote: »

They're hardly going to go "Lads, Joe90 on boards got a shady copy of the game off a dodgy site, but they really loved it. We're so happy about that, it makes the last two years of our effort worthwhile. Let's go home and have some fresh air for dinner. By the way, lads, P45's all around. Wahay!"

how many games that people download and burn do you ACTUALLY think theyd have bought otherwise? its a very low percentage. i have close to 100 xbox 360 games, most were downloaded, burnt, played for an hour, and never played again. nobody loses anything from me in those circumstances

Fingleberries wrote: »

[*] As for those with the "I'm only doing this to see if I like it" ... What are demos for? Why not rent the game? How about borrowing it from a mate?

as i said, ill get a game off a mate if possible first and foremost. otherwise tho ill download it, and you know why? it doesnt cost me anything

Fingleberries wrote: »

If everyone is doing it, does that make it right? ... No.

who said that?

Fingleberries wrote: »

[*] Just because you can do something, does that mean you should do it? ... No. If it's wrong, it's wrong. No matter how you may try to justify it.

whos trying to justify it or saying its right?

Fingleberries wrote: »

[*] If it was legal and above board, why are people so furtive about it and all the web sites that offer links to these downloads so scruffy and hidden - and you need to have most of your Antivirus and stuff up to date just in case they try any nastiness?

who said downloading games was legal? its not, and nobody said it was

[

Fingleberries wrote: »

Stealing something is not the same as Saving money.

again its not stealing. its massive breaching of copyrights, which is illegal. stealing is taking something from someone at a cost, however minimal, to them, without their permission. there is no cost to any developers for games i download (apart from pro evo 08, which i was going to buy but downloaded instead, fortunately coz its dirt)

event

jesus there are some amount of high horses in here

humanji

Helix wrote: »

you miss the point here. say i download game 'a', because i want to see what its like. there is NO sale lost there for the developers, because i wouldnt have bought it anyway. if i play it and like it, i WILL buy it on the ps3 if it has online gameplay, therefore, in my case (and as stated earlier, this is ONLY my case, i cant speak for everyone else) if the game is worth buying, itll be bought

I don't really see this as a valid argument. It's just making excuses. Granted, it may be true in your case, and if it is, you're definitely in the minority. Why would anyone go out and buy a game they already have? And then you get people who'll just tell themselves that even though they enjoyed a game, it could of been better, therefore justifying not buying it later.

The truth is, even when you download a game that you'd never consider buying, you're still taking money away from developers. Justify it all you want, it's still you stealing from these people. Personally, I couldn't care less that they're not getting my money, but I'm a stingy git. And I don't kid myself that it's a victimless crime.


And sure, you can always download demos of games instead, but that point rarely gets raised.

Helix

humanji wrote: »

I don't really see this as a valid argument.

why isnt it?

humanji wrote: »

Granted, it may be true in your case, and if it is, you're definitely in the minority.

i never claimed i wasnt

humanji wrote: »

Why would anyone go out and buy a game they already have?

did you miss the bit where i said "WILL buy it on the ps3 if it has online gameplay"?

humanji wrote: »

The truth is, even when you download a game that you'd never consider buying, you're still taking money away from developers.

how exactly?

humanji wrote: »

Justify it all you want, it's still you stealing from these people. Personally, I couldn't care less that they're not getting my money, but I'm a stingy git. And I don't kid myself that it's a victimless crime.

again how is it stealing if the developers of good games are still getting my money regardless? im not saying its a victimless crime, im saying that in my case the victims are the ones making pants games

humanji wrote: »

And sure, you can always download demos of games instead, but that point rarely gets raised.

how can you download demos on a machine which cant access live?

if ms had a feature where you could download demos from their website, burn them to dvd, and play them on the 360, then id actually download less in the way of 360 games, no doubt about that.

for the record as well this can be done, because the sites where i acquire games have started having demos from xbl on them for download too, and in those cases i have actually downloaded the demos

Helix

question for people

if you buy second hand games, are you not also stealing from the developer? in that it says the games arent for resale, and youre completely and utterly depriving the developers 100% of any income because youre buying it second hand?

SubjectSean

Fingleberries is saying "There is real money being lost, just because you are not handing over your money, does not equate to the same thing as the Software company, programmers, distributors and stores getting their fair dues. They don't spend millions researching, developing, coding, producing and marketing a game just so you can be happy. It's a business and they need to make a profit in order to continue in business."

Last time I looked Bill Gates was about one of the money richest people on the planet. He didn't get that way by charging a fair price for flawless products. All the movie stars and rock stars and studio execs. Look at the lives they lead and the money they are paid. It is totally obscence. My friend Vusi in Swaziland works 12 hour shifts six days a week. After a whole months work he could just about afford an XBOX game. Not an XBOX, just some new release title to play on an XBOX 360. Back as far as the 70's I taped music off the radio because I couldn't afford it otherwise. My point is that these industries are milking the people of planet earth. If the pirates cut into their obscene profits by taking a little back and sharing it around then surely they are the Robin Hoods.

MikeHoncho

Helix wrote: »

question for people

if you buy second hand games, are you not also stealing from the developer? in that it says the games arent for resale, and youre completely and utterly depriving the developers 100% of any income because youre buying it second hand?

Your ideas intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Seriously though that argument kind of swings it for me. Your 100% right. I was siding more to the side of pirates are bad but there really isnt a difference between the two things. The developer is getting screwed anyway its just up to you whether you or one of the rip of merchant game shops should profit from it.

Fingleberries

If I buy something crap that I don't like (e.g. one of those Coconut Moros - eww), who'se fault is it? Mine.

Now, I could go on the net and get the instructions on how to make a Coconut Moro and make it myself to see if I like it and then go and buy one if I so desired.

The only things in that are that:
- The instructions and recipe are most likely proprietary (copyrighted) information and I don't have permission to download or own them.
- The amount of money I am 'saving' is miniscule - 90c or so
- The effort to reproduce the bar is massive.

With Software it's the other way around
- The game is proprietary (copyrighted) material and I don't have permission to download or own them.
- The amound of money you 'save' is larger - generally €60+
- The effort is miniscule - a few hours to download and burn.

I can try to explain it away, but it's still the same - I can't blame Cadbury's if I waste 90c on a dud Bar (I mean, why put Coconut in a Moro? ). I learn from it and become more picky about what I buy.

If I buy a dud game, it's my fault. I'll have to be more careful the next time, and make sure I buy it for the best price.

Anyway - we've agreed on an important part of it. Downloading copyrighted material is illegal. The rest we'll have to agree to differ on.

coolhandc

Helix wrote: »

question for people

if you buy second hand games, are you not also stealing from the developer? in that it says the games arent for resale, and youre completely and utterly depriving the developers 100% of any income because youre buying it second hand?

i think i know where your going with that argument...but no i dont think your stealing from the developers.how many times does a game get traded in or exchanged though?at least when the game was released 100% did go to the appropriate parties.but even when you do go into game or something and exchange the game to get another one,then theres 100% going to the other game so no one loses.

Helix

coolhandc wrote: »

i think i know where your going with that argument...but no i dont think your stealing from the developers.how many times does a game get traded in or exchanged though?at least when the game was released 100% did go to the appropriate parties.but even when you do go into game or something and exchange the game to get another one,then theres 100% going to the other game so no one loses.

well not really, lets look at it like this

i buy game a, play it, finish it, trade it in

game put it back out on the shelf for a tenner less than the new game costs

joe bloggs comes in and buys it coz its a tenner cheaper, so he can buy a box of smokes on the way home. now, none of that money is going to the developers and joe bloggs still has game a.

fast forward 3 weeks and joe has finished the game, hes kinda bored with it so he puts it on adverts.ie for €20 under retail price.

johnny person sees it and says "jaysus yeah, i must get that" and arranges the sale, meets joe in town and buys it off him. again, none of that money is going to the developers, and another person has the game. straight up, thats the developers down 2 sales, due to something that people here have no problems with.

that may very well repeat 6 or 7 times over the course of the games life if its well looked after

"thats not many sales tho is it?" i hear you say, well no, its not. but thats say 7 people off ONE game, with 6 sales lost to developers, now, multiply that by the worldwide second hand game market

i think youll find your total losses are pretty big there, and its different to piracy in that these people intended to spend money on the game in the first place therefore it IS lost revenue, and calculatable lost revenue at that

Fony Tenton

Helix wrote: »

question for people

if you buy second hand games, are you not also stealing from the developer? in that it says the games arent for resale, and youre completely and utterly depriving the developers 100% of any income because youre buying it second hand?

Very very VERY good point

humanji

Helix wrote: »

why isnt it?

Hmm, I actually had more than one line there but must of deleted it before I posted. I don't see it as a valid point because it's claiming that if there was no piracy that you wouldn't buy the game anyway. Would you shoplift then? Or is it just the fact that it's easily obtainable that you get it?

Helix wrote:

i never claimed i wasnt

I know.

Helix wrote:

did you miss the bit where i said "WILL buy it on the ps3 if it has online gameplay"?

I wasn't aiming that at you.

Helix wrote:

how exactly?

I phrased that badly. I meant to say that you're playing something that you shouldn't have. In order for you to be playing it, the developers etc, should be getting their cut.

Helix wrote:

again how is it stealing if the developers of good games are still getting my money regardless? im not saying its a victimless crime, im saying that in my case the victims are the ones making pants games

Again, I wasn't aiming it at you.

Helix wrote:

how can you download demos on a machine which cant access live?

You don't. But then again, you'd be in the minority.

Helix wrote:

if ms had a feature where you could download demos from their website, burn them to dvd, and play them on the 360, then id actually download less in the way of 360 games, no doubt about that.

for the record as well this can be done, because the sites where i acquire games have started having demos from xbl on them for download too, and in those cases i have actually downloaded the demos

I'm sure they have some sort of worry about it being used for piracy

humanji

As for the second hand games, aparently, (according to stuff I found on the web, so who knows if it's true), devlopers don't ask for royalties for second hand sales because it's not worth bothering about at the moment. But if second hand sales go up then they'll soon start asking for money (so god knows what Gamestop will charge for them then!).

Qs

event wrote: »

jesus there are some amount of high horses in here

These folk must never have downloaded an mp3, avi or even a jpg without the permission of the creator.

If you don't charge a fair price for games then people will try to get around it. €70 for a game is outrageous. Very few are worth that much. If the game companies insist on ripping us off why should we download their games? It may be illegal but I don't believe its immoral and thats all I care about.

Helix

humanji wrote: »

Hmm, I actually had more than one line there but must of deleted it before I posted. I don't see it as a valid point because it's claiming that if there was no piracy that you wouldn't buy the game anyway. Would you shoplift then? Or is it just the fact that it's easily obtainable that you get it?

if there was no piracy i wouldnt get the game full stop. simple as that

humanji wrote: »

I phrased that badly. I meant to say that you're playing something that you shouldn't have. In order for you to be playing it, the developers etc, should be getting their cut.

see my points about second hand games. do you feel the same about them?

humanji wrote: »

I'm sure they have some sort of worry about it being used for piracy

lol

oh the irony eh

it makes sense tho surely, make the demos available on the xbox website for download and burning onto regular dvd+rs so that people without xbl for whatever reason, can play demos