Microsoft Starts New Ban Wave on LIVE Against Modified Firmwares

Helix

humanji wrote: »

As for the second hand games, aparently, (according to stuff I found on the web, so who knows if it's true), devlopers don't ask for royalties for second hand sales because it's not worth bothering about at the moment. But if second hand sales go up then they'll soon start asking for money (so god knows what Gamestop will charge for them then!).

the fact is tho that its doing exactly what people here are saying piracy is doing, and thats depriving developers of monetary reinbursement for the privilege of playing their games

Emmo

When you purchase a game you are allowed to make as many back up copies of that game that you want under the terms of the "mechanical license" allowed with each purchase.

You are only allowed to use these copies for personal use and nothing else.

Microsoft wont allow you to use these back up copies of the game on XBoxlive but under the terms of the contract when purchasing the game you are entitled to use the game under Xboxlive.

Sounds like someone should buy an xbox, buy a game, flash it, back it up, get banned and sue the **** out of Xbox for breach of contract and breach of EU law.

Emmo

ongarite

€70 for a game may seem like a rip-off but making games that people want these days are REALLY expensive. The amount of man-power and tech needed to make a Halo3 or GOW, etc has increased exponentially with each generation of consoles.
The publisher has to charge this amount to pay the wages of all the staff needed and then make some profit to fund the multi-million pound development of next game.

If you can't afford to pay that much you shouldn't be into gaming on consoles.

Helix

ongarite wrote: »

If you can't afford to pay that much you shouldn't be into gaming on consoles.

ive spent over €500 on ps3 games in a month

however i ensure im not buying turd by first downloading them for the 360 and seeing whats good and whats not

eg cod4, downloaded it, played it for 4 hours, bought for ps3

no loss there for devs

or is there? coz i bought it second hand

which means the developers made no money off me at all, and i still have the game. so here we have 2 cases of the developer getting nothing for me getting the game, one downloaded, one bought second hand

one is frowned upon, one is perfectly ok in the eyes of the afforementioned frowners

that make no sense to anyone else?

Ciaran500

Emmo wrote: »

When you purchase a game you are allowed to make as many back up copies of that game that you want under the terms of the "mechanical license" allowed with each purchase.

You are only allowed to use these copies for personal use and nothing else.

Source to the exact law? Pretty sure its not that liberal and also think there is a law against circumventing copy protections.

Vikings

Helix wrote: »

you miss the point here. say i download game 'a', because i want to see what its like. there is NO sale lost there for the developers, because i wouldnt have bought it anyway. if i play it and like it, i WILL buy it on the ps3 if it has online gameplay, therefore, in my case (and as stated earlier, this is ONLY my case, i cant speak for everyone else) if the game is worth buying, itll be bought


again its not stealing. its massive breaching of copyrights, which is illegal. stealing is taking something from someone at a cost, however minimal, to them, without their permission. there is no cost to any developers for games i download (apart from pro evo 08, which i was going to buy but downloaded instead, fortunately coz its dirt)

Do you have Microsofts permission when you download your Xbox 360 games?

If you really believe that nobody loses out on any money by you downloading games like this then there is no point in anybody arguing with you as you wont see reason.

By you downloading the game you are stealing from everybody involved in making the game, distributing the game, selling the game, renting the game...even those people advertising the game!

You try to justify it by saying that you buy the good games for the PS3... that means sweet F all to anybody who works for Microsoft or developed that game for the Xbox, it means nothing to lets say Xtravision who could have rented it to you and it certainly means nothing from the correct side of the law. What about all the bad games you download? There is no try before you buy out there... do your research before buying a game.

Helix wrote:

otherwise tho ill download it, and you know why? it doesnt cost me anything

Welcome to the real world...where services cost money.

Helix

read the rest of my posts before jumping in there skip

especially the 2nd hand bit

Vikings

I'm not talking about 2nd hand games. I'm talking about downloading games, pirated games.

Your argument on 2nd hand games means absolutely nothing when the issue at hand is to do with pirated games, it is a completely different kettle of fish.

humanji

Helix wrote: »

if there was no piracy i wouldnt get the game full stop. simple as that

Is it that simple? You say you download games to see what they are like. But you must assume you might like a game before you download. So if you can't pirate a game, how will you know if it's any good? Assuming you can't rent or borrow it, you'll have to buy it to find out. And unless you're an incredibly lucky person, or love all games, you're going to be stung with a bum game at some point.

Helix wrote:

see my points about second hand games. do you feel the same about them?

You're over estimating the second hand market.

Example 1: I make a game, you buy it. I get paid and (because I'm the worlds greatest game designer ) you enjoy the game. You finish, and sell it on. I've made my money, you've played the game and sold it on for hopefully a good price. Person C now has the game and may sell it on, but only after they've played the game and it's repeated to infinity. The amount of time between each sale is going to vary by quite a bit. Also, bare in mind that not everyone will want to sell it on (because it's so brilliant!), so you may only get people selling on a game months after it's released.

I, as a developer, would certainly lose money, but nowhere near the amount in this example:

Example 2: I make a game, you buy it. I get paid. You then upload it to the internet. Now everyone on the earth with an internet connection can download the game. Millions of pirate copies could be floating around on the day of release. Meaning, on release day, I'll be down millions of euro.

As I said before, developers don't currently get royalties from second hand sales, but if it ever proved profitable and worthwhile, you'll see that they soon will.

it makes sense tho surely, make the demos available on the xbox website for download and burning onto regular dvd+rs so that people without xbl for whatever reason, can play demos

Oh, it does make a hell of a lot of sense, but although I was kind of joking in the reply, piracy would be a major concern for MS. Plus there's the extra cost involved. The majority of xbox users will have an internet connection, so I can't see MS trying to cater for the minority. Financially, it just wouldn't be worth it (plus, they're mean, money grabbing b*stards ).

Helix

Vikings wrote: »

I'm not talking about 2nd hand games. I'm talking about downloading games, pirated games.

Your argument on 2nd hand games means absolutely nothing when the issue at hand is to do with pirated games, it is a completely different kettle of fish.

of course it does

its the same thing, youre getting on your high horse for people getting games and devs not getting a cut

i can guarentee you here and now that i spend more money annually on games than you, if i didnt download i wouldnt spend as much and thats a fact

Helix

humanji wrote: »

Example 2: I make a game, you buy it. I get paid. You then upload it to the internet. Now everyone on the earth with an internet connection can download the game. Millions of pirate copies could be floating around on the day of release. Meaning, on release day, I'll be down millions of euro.

thats not how it works, you wont be down a penny

humanji

Of course I will. Just because you pay for games that you like, doesn't mean everyone else does. In fact, I could be down more, because most games go up for download before the game is released, which means I wouldn't even be getting money for the original copy.

There are plenty of people who'd go out and buy a game if they couldn't find it for download, but when it appears infront of them, then why would they bother with all the hassle?

Helix

i know 3 people with modded 360s

theres me and one chap who both have ps3s and use the 360 for similar means (that is play it occasionally, with newly downloaded games, and if theyre any use buy them for the ps3)
and one who has a modded 360 AND an unmodded one

so thats 100% of people i know with modded boxes who still buy games regularly

and youd be surprised, im sure a lot of people bought 360s purely because they could download games. for those people the chances of them buying one if they had to pay 70 quid a whack is minimal, so again not really that damaging to sales.

if im overestimating the second hand market (which i dont believe i am), then youre overestimating the actual damage compared to theoretical damage of piracy

another example, i got a dreamcast recently because i could just download games for it. wouldnt have got it if i couldnt, same goes for my ds. point blank wouldnt have bought it if games werent free, and ill wager theres a massive amount of people who pirate who are the same. those individuals are NOT causing lost revenue, or reducing sales. theyre the individuals (and there are lots) who only actually got the machine in the first place because it was easy to pirate on

Smellyirishman

Helix wrote: »

thats not how it works, you wont be down a penny

:rolleyes: Yeah, sure. Tell me, how does piracy work?

Stop trying to justify stealing. I won't lie, I've pirated games (PC) but I know that in the end I did damage. As the ad goes, would you steal a car to test drive it and then buy it later? The only reason you're trying to justify what you're doing is because it's easy to do and the punishment is minimal/non-existant.

Give us a picture of your games collection there would ya?

To the person complaining about price, perhaps if nobody pirated games the price would come down. (Not likely)

Vikings

Helix wrote: »

of course it does

its the same thing, youre getting on your high horse for people getting games and devs not getting a cut

i can guarentee you here and now that i spend more money annually on games than you, if i didnt download i wouldnt spend as much and thats a fact

How is it the same thing? Buying second hand games is legal. Downloading pirated games is illegal.

That's about as clear cut as you can get and if you don't understand that then...well...theres not much more to say.

Helix wrote: »

another example, i got a dreamcast recently because i could just download games for it. wouldnt have got it if i couldnt, same goes for my ds. point blank wouldnt have bought it if games werent free, and ill wager theres a massive amount of people who pirate who are the same. those individuals are NOT causing lost revenue, or reducing sales. theyre the individuals (and there are lots) who only actually got the machine in the first place because it was easy to pirate on

Look, you download a game - a full game - and play it to your hearts content. If you complete that game you are not going to buy it (oh wait, unless its on the PS3 and has multiplayer) and if you do not like that game you will not buy it. So essentially you are getting a product for free. A product which you have to pay for in order to obtain it legally.

I'm not sure what part of this you do not understand?

humanji

Helix wrote: »

i know 3 people with modded 360s

theres me and one chap who both have ps3s and use the 360 for similar means (that is play it occasionally, with newly downloaded games, and if theyre any use buy them for the ps3)
and one who has a modded 360 AND an unmodded one

so thats 100% of people i know with modded boxes who still buy games regularly

and youd be surprised, im sure a lot of people bought 360s purely because they could download games. for those people the chances of them buying one if they had to pay 70 quid a whack is minimal, so again not really that damaging to sales.

It's incredibly damaging. If there's no piracy, would everyone do without games? Because you say you wouldn't by a game if you didn't enjoy the download, so the only way you can ever be sure of not getting a lemon is by not buying.

As I said before, without piracy, you'd have to buy some bad games in order to get to the good ones, therefore, because of piracy, that's income lost due to your pirating.

Helix wrote:

if im overestimating the second hand market (which i dont believe i am), then youre overestimating the actual damage compared to theoretical damage of piracy

another example, i got a dreamcast recently because i could just download games for it. wouldnt have got it if i couldnt, same goes for my ds. point blank wouldnt have bought it if games werent free, and ill wager theres a massive amount of people who pirate who are the same. those individuals are NOT causing lost revenue, or reducing sales. theyre the individuals (and there are lots) who only actually got the machine in the first place because it was easy to pirate on

You say you wouldn't, but you can't really say what you may have done if there was no piracy. And anyway, the point isn't that you wouldn't of bought it, it's the point that you ARE using it and playing the games, so they must have some merit, yet you still feel justified for the theft.

Helix

Vikings wrote: »

How is it the same thing? Buying second hand games is legal. Downloading pirated games is illegal.

That's about as clear cut as you can get and if you don't understand that then...well...theres not much more to say.

my point is not about illegalities here, everyone is saying "oh but the poor devs get no money if you download" im saying the poor devs get no money if you buy second hand

if your soul reason here is because its illegal grand, i wont lose any sleep over that. but dont be bringing up things like developers not getting money when you have no problem with second hand games

Vikings wrote: »

Look, you download a game - a full game - and play it to your hearts content. If you complete that game you are not going to buy it (oh wait, unless its on the PS3 and has multiplayer) and if you do not like that game you will not buy it. So essentially you are getting a product for free. A product which you have to pay for in order to obtain it legally.

I'm not sure what part of this you do not understand?

to date, ive completed 2 xbox 360 games. both of which were originals (of which i had 23 btw before i traded some of them in to help pay for the ps and a few games and sold others afterwards)

yes im getting a product for free, but its a product i wouldnt have bought anyway. youre missing that point. nobody loses any sales because i download a game for the above point you mentioned, if its worth a ****e ill buy it. xbox 360 games i downloaded which i BOUGHT for ps3:

fifa 08
tiger woods 07
skate
virtua fighter 5
need for speed carbon
the godfather
call of duty 4
the darkness
enchanted arms
the orange box (when it comes out)


xbox 360 games i downloaded which i BOUGHT for xbox 360:
gears of war
oblivion
pro evolution soccer 6
fifa 07
football manager 07
brian lara 07
project gotham racing 3
earth defence force 2017
call of duty 3

so please point out how i (me personally, not generic swashbuckling pirate who mugs grannies in your mind) has cost anyone money?

Helix

humanji wrote: »

It's incredibly damaging. If there's no piracy, would everyone do without games? Because you say you wouldn't by a game if you didn't enjoy the download, so the only way you can ever be sure of not getting a lemon is by not buying.

no, id just did what i used to do on the 16 bit systems and buy the sure things, which in this day and age i dont really have time to research

humanji wrote: »

As I said before, without piracy, you'd have to buy some bad games in order to get to the good ones, therefore, because of piracy, that's income lost due to your pirating.

deserved income lost

humanji wrote: »

You say you wouldn't, but you can't really say what you may have done if there was no piracy. And anyway, the point isn't that you wouldn't of bought it, it's the point that you ARE using it and playing the games, so they must have some merit, yet you still feel justified for the theft.

if there was no piracy i wouldnt have bought as many games in the last 2 years as i have, simple as that really. and id have missed out on some absolute gems like earth defence force 2017 for example, and oblivion which i wouldnt have bought normally

i agree with your point if youre making it about someone who buys no games whereas they wouldve otherwise, but i cant speak for them, i can only speak for myself. you and some others on here however are trying to speak for EVERYONE

and once again for the record, its not theft, its copyright infringement

something my zen would be lonely without. have you never downloaded an mp3?

humanji

Helix wrote: »

no, id just did what i used to do on the 16 bit systems and buy the sure things, which in this day and age i dont really have time to research

Daikatana was a sure thing

Helix wrote: »

deserved income lost

That's just being spiteful.

Helix wrote: »

if there was no piracy i wouldnt have bought as many games in the last 2 years as i have, simple as that really. and id have missed out on some absolute gems like earth defence force 2017 for example, and oblivion which i wouldnt have bought normally

i agree with your point if youre making it about someone who buys no games whereas they wouldve otherwise, but i cant speak for them, i can only speak for myself. you and some others on here however are trying to speak for EVERYONE

I was speaking of the majority. I don't believe for a second that the majority of people who download care enough about game developers to go out and buy the games they like. And those who, like yourself, buy the good games (and I can only assume destroy the copies of the bad games after playing a small part of them, otherwise you'd wonder how bad the game really was), are not the same as those who download games and buy the occasional game also. Just pointing out that buying the occasional game doesn't wipe the slate clean.

Helix wrote: »

and once again for the record, its not theft, its copyright infringement

It's using someone elses intellectual property without their knowledge or permission. I see it as theft. It's not the right term, but it's the same result.

Helix wrote: »

something my zen would be lonely without. have you never downloaded an mp3?

Did I ever say I didn't? I just don't try and justify it.

Helix

im not trying to justify it beyond the truth of the matter for me

j0e

But u still dont get the kinda damage u do to the market, console makers lose money when they launch a console. I dont know the figures but its usually a lot and they only really start to make the money on the games which they get around 1/5 of the price tag. If you are simply deciding not to buy games for that single console then ur pretty much crippling it.

F-Stop

I love these guys who support pirating, claim it's not stealing, claim it is the same as selling something second hand, then claim they might buy a game after stealing it, if they like it. That's the most illogical part. Don't they know that game publishers have to take the lost sales from pirating and add them into the price of the product? To download a game, and then buy it is the stupidest thing I have ever heard of - I'll steal it and then if I like it I'll buy it, and I'm willing to pay more for it than I should because of the fact that I started out by stealing it. Genius. Ignoring that moron, can anyone who steals downloads justify why they are making games more expensive for the rest of us?

Nerin

To download a game, and then buy it is the stupidest thing I have ever heard of - I'll steal it and then if I like it I'll buy it, and I'm willing to pay more for it than I should because of the fact that I started out by stealing it.

WHAT??? lol
if everyone did that it would be great!
someone buys a game and rips it. someone downloads the game,likes it,buys it. the only people who suffer are the people that try and pawn off terrible games, cuz the downloaders then dont buy it.

F-Stop

nerin wrote: »

WHAT??? lol
if everyone did that it would be great!

Moron A buys game and rips it > price goes up
Moron B downloads it > price goes up
Moron B then proves he's a complete moron and buys it - price stays at inflated price to cover the ripper and downloader, and dubious 'righteous downloader' theory.

Apart from Big Rigs, there are very few universally crap games. What people like in games is very subjective - that is actually a good thing. Your elitest posturing doesn't excuse this, or make it LOL GREAT. Pirating does not, and never will, improve the quality of games.

Nerin

lol
thats a good theory... :rolleyes:

F-Stop

nerin wrote: »

lol
thats a good theory... :rolleyes:

Then Moron C enters and fails. The smiley was the clincher.

Nerin

yeah,ok, fail indeed. lol
your the one calling people morons. why am i a moron?
you pretty much copied my little idea of piracy,and turned it around for your own purpose.
using a morons theory to make an argument against "morons"
super stuff there sir.

Nerin

let me clear this up for you all before F-Stop and others like him/her get their pants in a twist.
I dont own a Xbox or Ps3,i own an unmodded ps2 (second hand games yes yes) and a soon to be modded psp, homebrew, custom apps, cheats (dont cry because i enjoy doing crazy jumping and the like in a game) etc
i have a laptop,which i play the odd strategy game on.
first one i ever got, stronghold crusader. hooked straight away.
next game i buy stronghold 2. TERRIBLE GAME. if i had downloaded it i would have known.
downloaded stronghold legends to see if it would actually work,unlike 2.
it did,if not slow,need more ram.
when i see the game,its getting bought. as is more ram,so i can play it without it being slow.
age of empires,download 2,its good, buy aoe2 and the expansion,they make more money!i bought the expansion!
so yes,there are pirates out there,who will totally rape the hell out the internets and take take take,and that will make prices go up. (although 70euros for ps3 game already?no thanks)
but there are people who pirate,and then pay because they are happy with what they got,(plus now they have an extra copy)
so get off your high horses thinking that all people that have downloaded in the past are evil and "ruining the scene"
(ps also downloaded lots of louis theroux off youtube.and now i hear hes got a boxset coming out?will buy!)

F-Stop

Seems like pirates still like their rum.

Nerin

wow,your contributions are earth shattering, how old are you?
can you not learn to debate and discuss without this kind of childish nonsense ?