How legal is your firearms cert?

rrpc

Section 9(4)(a) of the 1964 Firearms act states:

A firearm certificate granted by a Superintendent may be renewed by a member of the Garda Síochána not below the rank of Sergeant in the district in which the holder of the certificate resides if and so long as he is so authorised in writing by the Superintendent of that district.

What this means is that if your renewal is signed by a Garda of rank below Sergeant, it is not legal. If your first licence is not signed by the Superintendent it is not legal either. If it is not signed at all, well then you're in deep doodoo

Check your licences folks and get back down to your Garda station if it's not signed according to the law.

bunny shooter

I may be in breach of this piece of legislation :eek:

Trojan911

rrpc wrote: »

What this means is that if your renewal is signed by a Garda of rank below Sergeant, it is not legal. Check your licences folks and get back down to your Garda station if it's not signed according to the law.

Well it would be probably argued (correctly in my opinion) that the Station Officer has been authorised in this instance to deal with the massive renewal deadline & will deal as appropriate. It is always the way.

The Superintendent will never see any of the letters of complaint that come in as his 'PA' i.e. the Inspector to the Super will normally deal with these and other issues....

Out of curiosity... Do you exceed the current limit of ammunition as prescribed on your certs?

johngalway

rrpc wrote: »

Section 9(4)(a) of the 1964 Firearms act states:


What this means is that if your renewal is signed by a Garda of rank below Sergeant, it is not legal. If your first licence is not signed by the Superintendent it is not legal either. If it is not signed at all, well then you're in deep doodoo

Check your licences folks and get back down to your Garda station if it's not signed according to the law.

Question, should they not know better?

rrpc

Trojan911 wrote: »

Well it would be probably argued (correctly in my opinion) that the Station Officer has been authorised in this instance to deal with the massive renewal deadline & will deal as appropriate. It is always the way.

Doesn't make it legal TJ and ignorancia juris reminem excusat would be the phrase applied.

Out of curiosity... Do you exceed the current limit of ammunition as prescribed on your certs?

No, but then again I have a 1000 round limit.

rrpc

johngalway wrote: »

Question, should they not know better?

They should, as should we. Hence the thread

It's better that everyone know this because if for example you are importing a firearm and the cert goes to the DoJ for import approval, they will refuse.

Rew

Mine are signed a member of the rank of Garda as far as I remember...

rrpc

Rew wrote: »

Mine are singed by a member of the rank of Garda as far as I remember...

Hot stuff :D Or was it a case of spontaneous combustion?

I would suggest that anyone with a cert signed by an ordinary Garda bring it back and get it signed by the Sergeant. It's not as though they wouldn't stand on the law if the situation were reversed.

fishdog

This does not surprise me. A group of us gave copies of our FACs to a RFD we use to support his application to the DOJ to allow him to buy a large quantity of ammunition in the calibre that we require for competitions/practice.

However my certificate was not accepted by the department, apparently it was not valid because of the very issue RRPC raised.:(

rrpc

fishdog wrote: »

This does not surprise me. A group of us gave copies of our FACs to a RFD we use to support his application to the DOJ to allow him to buy a large quantity of ammunition in the calibre that we require for competitions/practice.

However my certificate was not accepted by the department, apparently it was not valid because of the very issue RRPC raised.:(

I heard of a similar situation that prompted me to look it up and start this thread. For most people it isn't an issue until something like fishdogs experience comes up, or some other unforeseen situation in which you rely on your licence and find out that you can't.

Best to check it and get it sorted.

johngalway

Hmmm I must look at mine in the morning. Pretty sure they're signed by three different Supernintendos though as I remember I had a different one for each application.

Trojan911

rrpc wrote: »

Doesn't make it legal TJ and ignorancia juris reminem excusat would be the phrase applied.

Sure it wouldn't, but I'm just offering my opinion from experience.

rrpc wrote: »

No, but then again I have a 1000 round limit.

Nice.

The Villain

rrpc wrote: »

Section 9(4)(a) of the 1964 Firearms act states:


What this means is that if your renewal is signed by a Garda of rank below Sergeant, it is not legal. If your first licence is not signed by the Superintendent it is not legal either. If it is not signed at all, well then you're in deep doodoo

Check your licences folks and get back down to your Garda station if it's not signed according to the law.

2 questions spring to mind on this one...

1. If the initial application for the cert has been previously approved by the superintendant, then is the entire application not "signed" by the superintendant?? The fact that the garda signed the final piece of paper mightn't necessarily deem the certificate null and void?

2. Does bringing the cert back to your local station to get get signed by your sergeant deem the cert legally valid? Does the cert have to be signed by a sergeant, inspector or superintendant who work in the superintendants office?

To me now, this query can open up a huge legal can of worms...and one which the authorities would probably prefer went away and never came back!! Well spotted RRPC. Any other observations that could throw the system into turmoil????????

rrpc

The Villain wrote: »

1. If the initial application for the cert has been previously approved by the superintendant, then is the entire application not "signed" by the superintendant?? The fact that the garda signed the final piece of paper mightn't necessarily deem the certificate null and void?

Unfortunately it would. The first cert must be signed by the Superintendent to be legal.

2. Does bringing the cert back to your local station to get get signed by your sergeant deem the cert legally valid? Does the cert have to be signed by a sergeant, inspector or superintendant who work in the superintendants office?

The act is clear on this. It says the Sergeant of your local station authorised by the Superintendent.

Any other observations that could throw the system into turmoil????????

Not yet

Our man in Havana

Mine was signed by the Inspector acting as a Superintendent. Is that allowed?

rrpc

Bond-007 wrote: »

Mine was signed by the Inspector acting as a Superintendent. Is that allowed?

AFAIK Yes.

Trojan911

Ok, Iv'e just checked my three certs & they are all signed by the same Garda who is the rank of Garda. Are you saying these are not legal?

I cannot remember but isn't there a detachable piece that is taken off whilst renewing. Is that signed by the Inspector for the Super?

Another question pops to mind, when I or we trade in our rifles for newer or bigger calibers, is the Garda who alters the licence & stamps it acting in a lawful capacity?

Our man in Havana

Trojan911 wrote: »

Another question pops to mind, when I or we trade in our rifles for newer or bigger calibers, is the Garda who alters the licence & stamps it acting in a lawful capacity?

This is a very thorny issue in some districts. Where I live I was told that no one expect the Super had the authority to alter a FAC. None of the local Gardaí are willing to alter a FAC.

sixpointfive

mine signed by the firearms lad but he didnt put rank down? now what??

Trojan911

Bond-007 wrote: »

This is a very thorny issue in some districts. Where I live I was told that no one expect the Super had the authority to alter a FAC. None of the local Gardaí are willing to alter a FAC.

There does appear to be a lot of discrepency in this field. I, thankfully, have not encountered this problem when I've renewed or changed firearm but reading some threads/posts on this forum some people go through hell to get their certs issued/altered.

This issue needs to be addressed in the interests of fairness to all. In general, I cannot complain about our locals as they have looked after me when the need arises.

But if I were to move districts one of the things on my to do list would be to suss out the local Super & his/her attitudes towards FAC's.

fat-tony

Let's be clear on this:

First cert must be signed by the Superintendent (or Inspector acting as Super)

Renewals must be signed by Sergeant rank or higher - if your Firearms Officer is signing Renewals and he/she is not Sergeant rank or higher then it's not legal.

Alterations to certs (for change in description - serial no., calibre, make etc.) may be done by your FAO as a person authorised by the Superintendent. It's when renewal time comes around that it must be signed by the Sergeant.

My local guard always is delayed in getting the licences out as they have to go to another station to get signed by a Sergerant or the Super..

So I'm fine in this case.

johngalway

Looked at mine, all are renewals signed by Sgt.

But, I have another question.

One renewal was for a rifle I traded in. The local Garda crossed out the old rifle serial number and make and wrote in the new rifles serial number and make. Is that ok? Like I said, the renewal for the old rifle was signed by a Sargent, but the details were put in by a Garda (I think that's his rank).

boc121

If the garda is a fire arms officer,then surely he/she is authurised by the super or someone else?

fat-tony

johngalway wrote: »

Looked at mine, all are renewals signed by Sgt.

But, I have another question.

One renewal was for a rifle I traded in. The local Garda crossed out the old rifle serial number and make and wrote in the new rifles serial number and make. Is that ok? Like I said, the renewal for the old rifle was signed by a Sargent, but the details were put in by a Garda (I think that's his rank).

See post number 21 above. Amendments may be done (and initialled) by the Firearms Officer who is acting on behalf of the Super. The amendments should also be stamped with the station stamp. As you say in your post your cert is SIGNED by the Sergeant.

CJhaughey

Just to update this timely thread.
I applied online to the DOJ for a license to import my .243 from the UK, I enclosed a scanned copy of my FAC.
Today I got in the post a letter saying that ^^ as posted above the first cert HAS to be signed by the Super.
So off I go back to the main station to get the Supers signature on the paper to make it all legal.
Jeebus what a mess this whole system is! I guess the reason that people deal with this is that they are afraid what might happen if it was changed:eek: