Should cannibas be legalised????

Seachmall

jiltloop wrote: »

also my opinion on this debate is that making it legal would probably be a good idea if it was a global thing but something that people don't seem to realise is that if ireland made cannibas legal and opened up coffee shops it would bring forth some rather unsavoury tourists. i've been to amsterdam in my smoking days and its a magnet for all sorts of dodgy people from all over the globe. fact is you would get people coming to ireland for the coffee shops who also dabble in other drugs. this would mean more customers for drug dealers who are dealing the illegal stuff. cue an influx of all sorts of shady characters ready to earn their buck from the new open minded tourists. although i do agree that cannibas is way less damaging to society than alcohol and cigarettes.

Make it only available to Irish Citizens over the age of 18, anyone attempting to purchase it must show an Irish ID to satisfy both claims.

Havermeyer

Tis a fairly controversial topic, imo. How and ever, I think it should be legalised. I don't believe it's a gateway drug, and more people die every year from alcohol abuse and cigarette smoking.

But, let's be honest, ciggies and beer are big tax winners. :rolleyes:

Seachmall

nummnutts wrote: »

Tis a fairly controversial topic, imo. How and ever, I think it should be legalised. I don't believe it's a gateway drug

No proof to the contrary.

and more people die every year from alcohol abuse and cigarette smoking.

Its impossible to overdose from marijuana and it has never been connected to any illness. In fact, noone has ever died from it.

But, let's be honest, ciggies and beer are big tax winners. :rolleyes:

Why can't marijuana? Even if you have a 200% mark-up for taxing it'd still be cheaper then street prices keeping everyone happy.

Timans

Seachmall wrote: »

No proof to the contrary.Its impossible to overdose from marijuana and it has never been connected to any illness. In fact, noone has ever died from it.Why can't marijuana? Even if you have a 200% mark-up for taxing it'd still be cheaper then street prices keeping everyone happy.

http://www.irishhealth.com/?id=1541&level=4

Sam Vimes

Tha Gopher wrote: »

More arse.

I never said Ireland would be cannabis free.


It`s people like you who abuse the rule banning personal abuse.

having had a look back through the thread:

Tha Gopher wrote: »

With the Morrocans clamping down heavily on hash and the majority of weed available here being so weak it is not worth buying, the government has no incentive to legalise. The stuff will either be gone within 10-15 years, will be too expensive due to the distace travelled or, in the case of weed, will be of such poor quality nobody will bother buying it.

i'm confused here. When you use the word arse, do you mean "yes certainly mr vimes, i said exactly that. Well done on being so observant"?

Seachmall

Timans wrote: »

http://www.irishhealth.com/?id=1541&level=4

one in six regular cannabis users displayed severe psychotic symptoms, including hearing voices or irrational feelings of persecution. - That gives no indication as to whether or not marijuana is the result. One in three Americans smoke marijuana, that doesn't mean smoking marijuana makes you American.

Cannabis users were also more likely to develop other types of mental illness, such as depression. - That is is the infamous claim which is commonly rejected based the fact that you are more likely to use marijuana if you are depressed. It doesn't cause depression but people who are already depressed use it, when studies like these are carried out they regurally ignore this fact. It is similar to alcohol in this way however the effects that alcoholism has on someones life can then lead to further depression making marijuana the preffered option of these 2 for those desperate enough.

There are several mentions of THC and its anti-depressant capabilities here,
http://books.nap.edu/html/marimed/

AARRRGH

bitemybanger wrote: »

After all, thousands of people smoke the stuff, it dosnt really do any harm

I read a study recently that showed it is a lot more dangerous than cigarettes regarding lung cancer.

The government is slowly trying to stamp out smoking, so I can't see cannabis being legalised anytime soon!

Long term, it might happen though.

I'd happily ban alcohol and legalise cannabis, if we had to have one or the other...

Timans

Seachmall wrote: »

one in six regular cannabis users displayed severe psychotic symptoms, including hearing voices or irrational feelings of persecution. - That gives no indication as to whether or not marijuana is the result. One in three Americans smoke marijuana, that doesn't mean smoking marijuana makes you American.

Cannabis users were also more likely to develop other types of mental illness, such as depression. - That is is the infamous claim which is commonly rejected based the fact that you are more likely to use marijuana if you are depressed. It doesn't cause depression but people who are already depressed use it, when studies like these are carried out they regurally ignore this fact. It is similar to alcohol in this way however the effects that alcoholism has on someones life can then lead to further depression making marijuana the preffered option of these 2 for those desperate enough.

There are several mentions of THC and its anti-depressant capabilities here,
http://books.nap.edu/html/marimed/

You said Cannabis has never been linked to any illness, which quite clearly is not true.

JC 2K3

It's never been conclusively linked to any mental illness. They have found that a higher proportion of users have mental illnesses than the general population, but there's no more basis to say it causes these illnesses than to say that anti-depressants cause depression because the vast majority of users are depressed.

Also, when they say it causes all these psychotic symptoms, they annoyingly always forget to mention whether they mean while under they're talking about being under the influence of cannabis, i.e. an effect that wears off after a couple of hours, or a permanent, lasting effect that affects the victim constantly. Obviously the former is not much of a concern, and is perhaps even desirable, whereas the latter is a genuinely serious issue.

Timans

You could say that is also hasn't been 'conclusively' linked to not causing mental illness.

As with all drugs, there is an element of risk involved. If you are happy to take the risk and accept the potential consequences then that's fine. But it is silly to say that Cannabis has "never been linked to any illness", because that statement is not true.

Seachmall

AARRRGH wrote: »

I read a study recently that showed it is a lot more dangerous than cigarettes regarding lung cancer.

Absolutly not. Lets hear a word from the most respected man in the field of lung diseases.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJmQ16cGBHU

You can see the look on the guys face when Dr. Tashkin mentions negative effects.
I can't seem to find part 2, if I do find it I'll post it.

You said Cannabis has never been linked to any illness, which quite clearly is not true.

If someone says its dangerous and then its proven to be false or inaccurate that link is broken. What you posted is one of the most 'infamous' cases that gets laughed at by pro-legalisation groups and respected doctors in the field all the time. The only major illness that could potentially arise from marijunan is inhaling carcinogens as a result of smoking it, these however are not as a result of the marijuana but merely the fact you are inhaling smoke. If you ingest (or possibly use a vapouriser) it there are no negative effects.

You could say that is also hasn't been 'conclusively' linked to not causing mental illness.

Well the burden of proof is on those claiming it is connected to mental illness. People only refute it when a lack of evidence is presented, those people don't need to prove anything because they are not 'leading' the claim.

Timans

I'm very surprised that pro-logalisation groups would laugh at something which goes against their beliefs.. very surprised..

Seachmall

Timans wrote: »

I'm very surprised that pro-logalisation groups would laugh at something which goes against their beliefs.. very surprised..

Not that it goes against their beliefs but because its a claim taken so seriously but its so flawed. If it is conclusively proven to cause mental illness then it is something that would definetly be taken into consideration and possibly the concept of recreational use would be rejected by pro-legalisation groups. However its benefits for medical use can not be refuted, I've posted a video and a link to a medical report to support this.

People happily give ridalin to kids but don't want to give marijuana to the teminally ill, can you explain that?

JC 2K3

Timans wrote: »

As with all drugs, there is an element of risk involved. If you are happy to take the risk and accept the potential consequences then that's fine.

That's essentially it really.

Wertz

Timans wrote: »

I'm very surprised that pro-logalisation groups would laugh at something which goes against their beliefs.. very surprised..

I'd be even more surprised that those advocating or supporting the continued prohibition of cannabis would clutch at straws like these "links" that have no solid scientific basis and go on to build whole arguments atop the questionable claims...
If you're going to argue against cannibinoids then at least stick to things that are known about it; ie. it's effect through over use on motivation, ambition, memory and learning functions...because as a long term user of the drug those to me were and are a lot more worrying that some tenuous bullsh*t that does nothing but try to scare people into not using the drug through the lingering "threat" of mental illness...

Seachmall

For the sake of it heres another video from the co-author of 'Marijuana Myths, Marijuana Facts; A review of the scientific evidence'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KLy150NR_U

Timans

Wertz wrote: »

I'd be even more surprised that those advocating or supporting the continued prohibition of cannabis would clutch at straws like these "links" that have no solid scientific basis and go on to build whole arguments atop the questionable claims...
If you're going to argue against cannibinoids then at least stick to things that are known about it; ie. it's effect through over use on motivation, ambition, memory and learning functions...because as a long term user of the drug those to me were and are a lot more worrying that some tenuous bullsh*t that does nothing but try to scare people into not using the drug through the lingering "threat" of mental illness...

Well, to be honest, I believe that it can cause mental illness in some cases. I am not saying that everyone will become mentally ill from their use of the drug, but I believe that people should be aware of a chance of it happening.

I am not necessarily arguing against "cannibinoids" because I have learned there is no point, nothing I say will be taken on board. The debate is ridiculous, neither party changes their mind. I just think that a lot of people on here seem to believe that cannabis is completely harmless, and this is not the case. There is always risks that you will be affected negatively by any drug, not just cannabis, and I believe it is important for those risks to be known. One of those risks is mental illness.

Timans wrote:

As with all drugs, there is an element of risk involved. If you are happy to take the risk and accept the potential consequences then that's fine.

Seachmall wrote:

People happily give ridalin to kids but don't want to give marijuana to the terminally ill, can you explain that?

No, I can't, how could I?

Seachmall

Timans wrote: »

Well, to be honest, I believe that it can cause mental illness in some cases. I am not saying that everyone will become mentally ill from their use of the drug, but I believe that people should be aware of a chance of it happening.I just think that a lot of people on here seem to believe that cannabis is completely harmless, and this is not the case. There is always risks that you will be affected negatively by any drug, not just cannabis, and I believe it is important for those risks to be known. One of those risks is mental illness.

There is always a chance but debates need to be centered around known facts for them to get anywhere. I will not deny there is a chance tomorrow marijuana could be proven to cause cancer, mental illness and be an effective spermacide but the current evidence shows otherwise. People throwing possibilities around will get discussions nowhere.

No, I can't, how could I?

Rhetorical question, wasn't supossed to be targeted at anyone in particular, apolagies.

Timans

Seachmall wrote: »

There is always a chance but debates need to be centered around known facts for them to get anywhere. I will not deny there is a chance tomorrow marijuana could be proven to cause cancer, mental illness and be an effective spermacide but the current evidence shows otherwise. People throwing possibilities around will get discussions nowhere.

Rhetorical question, wasn't supossed to be targeted at anyone in particular, apolagies.

There has been studies linking cannabis to mental illness, if you decide to reject it, then that is your own choice.

Seachmall

Timans wrote: »

There has been studies linking cannabis to mental illness, if you decide to reject it, then that is your own choice.

Can you provide a source? The only one I'm aware of is the one you've already mentioned which I've explained why its been rejected.

Heres a small article on the subject.

'Scientists do not yet know how the use of marijuana relates to mental illness. Among the difficulties in this kind of research are determining whether drug use precedes or follows mental health problems; whether one causes the other; and/or whether both are due to other factors such as genetics or environmental conditions.

High doses of marijuana can induce psychosis (disturbed perceptions and thoughts), and marijuana use can worsen psychotic symptoms in people who have schizophrenia. There is also evidence of increased rates of depression, anxiety, and suicidal thinking in chronic marijuana users.

However, it is not yet clear whether marijuana is being used in an attempt to self-medicate an already present but otherwise untreated mental health problem, or whether marijuana use leads to mental disorders (or both).
I think this is what you are getting at: There is also evidence of increased rates of depression, anxiety, and suicidal thinking in chronic marijuana users.'

Like I said before though, that is mentioned in the medical report I provided and states it varies from person to person with those having increased thoughts being the minority. Once again I apolagise for taking the wrong end of the stick, I assume this is what you were getting at?

Wertz

I'm sorry to be sceptical but I will believe links to mental illness and in particular, schizophrenia if/when a concrete link is estbalished.
Other than that I have only my own and that of my friends experiences' to go from...none of us have ever been to a psychologist (or even a doctor) over weed. None of us either would deny that the drug effects us, some times in negative ways (I don't think any drug user would seriously try and say that their substance of choice has no negative effetcs)...then again none of us would say that drink hasn't got even more negative effects.
We're all quite happy to live with the perceived negative effects of any susbstance because for a lot of the time the good outweighs the bad...in the long run that may be bad for our health...but in life, what isn't?

Terry

Tigger wrote: »

what about alcohol (i'm sure you've answered this before but i missed it) what is the inherant difference that you see between the use/abuse of alcohol and the abuse /use of narcotics speficially cannabis

i have had a lot of experioance btw and i will agree with a lot of the points against legalisation but i'm interested in yours

Better the devil you know would be the simplest reason.
Sure haven't people been drinking alcohol for thousands of years. It's natural and stuff.

vinylmesh wrote: »

No!!!

Drugs are illegal for the same reason condoms(1985), homosexuality(1993) and divorce (1997) were all illegal!

Well that's just a really stupid arguement.

Do you honestly believe there's a rational basis for prohibition?

Yes. Drugs mess you up. What part of that do you not understand?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article1555582.ece

Well that's me convinced.
Got any more valuable nuggets?

Boggle wrote: »

What stupid things has anyone ever done while smoking a joint?

Made a bong out of a 5 litre bottle of water.

Its time to treat adults like adults so that at least when the govt warns someone of dangers then their word carries at least some weight...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/humber/features/2003/talkingteenagers/images/kevin_teenager_270.jpg

Seachmall wrote: »

No proof to the contrary.Its impossible to overdose from marijuana and it has never been connected to any illness. In fact, noone has ever died from it.Why can't marijuana? Even if you have a 200% mark-up for taxing it'd still be cheaper then street prices keeping everyone happy.

Timans wrote: »

http://www.irishhealth.com/?id=1541&level=4

Seachmall wrote: »

one in six regular cannabis users displayed severe psychotic symptoms, including hearing voices or irrational feelings of persecution. - That gives no indication as to whether or not marijuana is the result. One in three Americans smoke marijuana, that doesn't mean smoking marijuana makes you American.

Cannabis users were also more likely to develop other types of mental illness, such as depression. - That is is the infamous claim which is commonly rejected based the fact that you are more likely to use marijuana if you are depressed. It doesn't cause depression but people who are already depressed use it, when studies like these are carried out they regurally ignore this fact. It is similar to alcohol in this way however the effects that alcoholism has on someones life can then lead to further depression making marijuana the preffered option of these 2 for those desperate enough.

There are several mentions of THC and its anti-depressant capabilities here,
http://books.nap.edu/html/marimed/

Pro-smoking person disagrees with study that shows cannabis can be harmful shocker!.

Seachmall

Wertz wrote: »

I'm sorry to be sceptical but I will believe links to mental illness and in particular, schizophrenia if/when a concrete link is estbalished.

Schizophrenia is very difficult to answer because noone knows what causes it or even whether its a genetic disorder. I don't think that will be answered any time soon and until it is we cannot claim anything causes it, people can assume though.

Pro-smoking person disagrees with study that shows cannabis can be harmful shocker!.

I'd like to mention here that I don't smoke marijuana and I amn't pro-smoking it. I believe we have the right to use it but think if it is used it should be ingested. I have also explained why I (and numerous respected doctors in the field) reject that report (or atleast I think its that report). Perhaps if you read the thread you will get a better understanding of my stance on the subject.

You're also very condescending of me while I'm the only person to post medical reports and videos from leading doctors and authors on the subject.

Drugs are illegal for the same reason condoms(1985), homosexuality(1993) and divorce (1997) were all illegal!

Well that's just a really stupid arguement.

Marijuana was first mad illegal in the United States in 1939 by Harry J. Anslinger. He believed it made black people feel equal to whites, white women sleep with black men and it fueld the devils music (i.e. Jazz), these were promoted in newspapers who were politically in bed with Anslinger and on television. This session of propaganda is commonly reffered to as 'Reefer Madness'. This appeared, to the white voters of America (blacks couldn't vote), to be a good enough reason to outlaw the substance. As you may have noticed 1939 is also the same year the Irish constitution was written, with Ireland hoping to improve the country it took influence from some of the most powerful countries in the world to base the constitution on. If you don't believe me google it yourself.

This is the video from where reefer madness took its name (a t.v. advert in 1936):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM_vLk1I6G4

Sam Vimes

Terry wrote: »

Better the devil you know would be the simplest reason.
Sure haven't people been drinking alcohol for thousands of years. It's natural and stuff.

a very good point. And since cannabis has been smoked for 12,000 years it counts as the devil you know

Wertz

Seachmall wrote:

Schizophrenia is very difficult to answer because noone knows what causes it or even whether its a genetic disorder. I don't think that will be answered any time soon and until it is we cannot claim anything causes it, people can assume though.

Okay so just the whole general "mental illness" unbrella then...what is mental illness even defined as? Any deviation from the "norm"?
As has been alluded to already in this thread, it is as likely to be that those people of a genetic (or otherwise) predisposition to mental illness would seek out recreational drugs and self medicate to a greater extent than the "normal" person...hence any links seen in closed studies are just as likely to be due to false positives, ie. where a schizophrenic was a dope smoker, that the smoking dope is seen as the contributory factor or precursor rather than a symptom of the underlying mental illness...

Boggle

Terry wrote:

Better the devil you know would be the simplest reason.
Sure haven't people been drinking alcohol for thousands of years. It's natural and stuff.

Can similar logic not be applied to caannabis?

Well that's just a really stupid arguement.

Well thats just a really stupid argument. (See I can do it too!)

Yes. Drugs mess you up. What part of that do you not understand?

The thread is should cannabis be legalised so please expand on your statement and leave the soundbites at home.

Made a bong out of a 5 litre bottle of water.

Are you serious here? Is this the best you an come up with?

Pro-smoking person disagrees with study that shows cannabis can be harmful shocker!.

Religiously anti-smoking person buries head in sand and screams la-la,la-la so he doesn't have to acknowledge he may be wrong... What a shocker!

Timans wrote:

I am not necessarily arguing against "cannibinoids" because I have learned there is no point, nothing I say will be taken on board. The debate is ridiculous, neither party changes their mind.

Atually, I think that slowly but surely people are coming around to acknowledging that prohibition of cannabis is a waste of taxpayers resources.
There was a poll on that irish health website that showed a huge majority wanted it legalised for example...

AARRRGH

Seachmall wrote: »

Absolutly not. Lets hear a word from the most respected man in the field of lung diseases.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJmQ16cGBHU

Isn't that video clip a few years old?

The stuff I read was fairly recent, for example: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7217601.stm

Shulgin

AARRRGH wrote: »

Isn't that video clip a few years old?

The stuff I read was fairly recent, for example: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7217601.stm

All that lung cancer stuff doesn`t apply to cannabis when eaten or vapourised.
You don`t HAVE to smoke it! Its just as effective (and more pleasant for some) used through other methods.

AARRRGH

Shulgin wrote: »

All that lung cancer stuff doesn`t apply to cannabis when eaten or vapourised.
You don`t HAVE to smoke it! Its just as effective (and more pleasant for some) used through other methods.

Very true.

The thing about eating hash cakes or whatever though, it's very easy to "overdose" on them, especially if you've just eaten a big meal. I know you don't die or whatever, but you do have the shakes, extremely paranoia and no short term memory for a few hours.

At least with booze you're able to get sick and feel better pretty quickly.

Seachmall

AARRRGH wrote: »

Very true.

The thing about eating hash cakes or whatever though, it's very easy to "overdose" on them, especially if you've just eaten a big meal. I know you don't die or whatever, but you do have the shakes, extremely paranoia and no short term memory for a few hours.

At least with booze you're able to get sick and feel better pretty quickly.

Although I haven't smoked for a couple of years I have pulled a whitey and once I threw up a few times I felt fine, relatively fine anyway. I'm not sure what your experiences are with marijuana but I've never heard of an overdose like this.

Also, you should take into consideration that due to the extremly high prices in europe (excluding Holland I think) marijuana is smoke with tobbaco which we all know to cause cancer. In the states there is no tobbaco and so joints are pure marijuana reducing the risk of cancer. I'm not sure what its like in New Zealand where this study was carried out though, can someone from that region clarify however even so, 7% is still extremly low when compared to other chemicals (tobbaco for example) although I generally don't belief comparison is a form of defense for this type of thing.

Also, saying it can cause cancer isn't really enough detail, what type of cancer (there are over 200 types)? Some are more dangerous then others, not saying I'd like to have any though.

Isn't that video clip a few years old?

Yes, 2006 but it is still the largest experiment done to date.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/25/AR2006052501729_pf.html