Actual bodily harm witnessed outside Cuba

cornbb

randylonghorn wrote: »

Then while he was hanging around heckling you, the Gardai should have been called and that guy arrested for assault.

Bouncers have no right to hand out "punishment" ... they are not guards, let alone judge, jury and executioner all rolled up in one neat package.

Is that too difficult a concept to understand?

Spot on. I think the problem here is that bouncers are under the impression that a shaved head and black jacket gives them carte blanche to beat the shít out of people without repercussion. Inflated egos, violent tendencies and a poor grasp of fundamental morality in some bouncers are giving the whole bunch a bad name, I suggest that any security/doormen reading and posting here do not try to excuse this behaviour as they risk having themselves labelled as one of these thugs.

randylonghorn

cornbb wrote: »

Inflated egos, violent tendencies and a poor grasp of fundamental morality in some bouncers are giving the whole bunch a bad name

In fairness, as I'm sure you would agree, cornbb, it is some, not all ... or even the majority. Lots of very decent bouncers around ... pity that the minority gives the majority a bad name ... and that the majority let them!

kmick

This really has nothing to do with bouncers at all. Everyone knows bouncers are brainless brutes. You do not screw with them because if you do you will get badly injured or killed (like that guy in Cork who punched a bouncer and was choked to death by one of them).

So lets look at it from the other side
I am a guy who has had too much to drink. I dont know my limits and when I get drunk I become aggresive to other people. I abuse random people and threaten them. I am not a nice person when I am drunk. What is going to happen to me.

1) I am going to abuse a bouncer and get betaen up
2) I am going to abuse a farmer from Longford and get a beating
3) I am going to annoy a gang of Polish lads and get a beating

etc etc

Point is if I am going to insist on going out and trying to wreck other peoples nights (I mean obviously the OP was aware of this guy the whole night) I am eventually going to hit the wall.

In this case he taunted the bouncers until they had enough. I mean its like standing in front of a pack of wild dogs with a ham and taunting them. Eventually those dogs are gonna bite you.

po0k

Well that's just it, repeatedly the "few bad apples" argument comes up. Perhaps all doormen respond in different degrees depending on a given situation on a given night?
We've read a lot of opinions from one side of the fence, with a few counter-points and reality checks from wet-paint, RealJohn and mark.leonard.

Honestly, with some of the sh1t I've seen pissheads getting up to, I would lay waste to a large slice of Irish society in a heartbeat. Feckless moronic wastrels. Keeps the publicans in 7-series, S-classes and Discoveries though, so I guess they're good for something.

I have to agree with SyxPax. I spent a while working in a pub in Galway, admitted it was just as a bar porter, but I still managed to see my fair share of idiots out drinking.

Take, for example, one night during Race Week:

I had been doing my rounds when I came across this guy who was bleeding badly from his forehead. There was one of the bar staff attending to him and a bouncer asking him questions. It turned out that he had been standing there chatting to his friends when some other guy comes up behind him and taps him on the shoulder. He turns around only to have a bottle cracked against his forehead. This has (apparently) happened with no reason whatsoever and the guy didn't even know his attacker. Thankfully enough the Gardai apprehended the attacker shortly afterwards.

There are other examples, but that one always stood out to me. For anyone who says how bad some bouncers are, just ask yourself; how would you respond in the exact same situation.

mark.leonard

cornbb wrote: »

If you see a bouncer kneeing a guy in the spine while he's curled up in a ball on the ground you don't need any other information tbh, while I appreciate that it might be a challenging job sometimes, there's no background information that could possibly excuse such behaviour from a doorman.

Fracture beat me to my reply to this so I'll just add ditto what he said.

johncleary wrote:

Or the time my GF was in Cuba and got glass in the side of her foot (She was wearing heels), so they threw her out Had to get in a taxi myself with her and bring her to casualty as i'd have felt a right eejit ringing an ambulance.

Good job me 4rse, probably the most unprofessional act i've seen by a bouncer

That story has to be rubbish, the liability you would open the club up to treating someone like that would get any bouncer anywhere sacked in a heartbeat.

kmick wrote:

This really has nothing to do with bouncers at all. Everyone knows bouncers are brainless brutes. You do not screw with them because if you do you will get badly injured or killed (like that guy in Cork who punched a bouncer and was choked to death by one of them).

Ah here now! We are not all brainless brutes, I would be of the opinion that the doorman IQ conforms with the national average, and has the same representation below and above the bell curve like most other unskilled professions.

As far as the guy in Cork was concerned, I was working in a different Bar in Cork when that happened and it was a tragedy no doubt, it was not anyone's intention to kill that guy and I am sure they would all handle it differently if they could go back and change it. From the information I have it was a choke applied by an un-skilled individual and didn't know when to let go, its an argument for compulsory and consistent restraint training for all bouncers as far as I am concerned, and not really a warning to punters that "this is what you'll get!" if you take on bouncers.

kmick

mark.leonard wrote: »

Ah here now! We are not all brainless brutes, I would be of the opinion that the doorman IQ conforms with the national average, and has the same representation below and above the bell curve like most other unskilled professions.

Ok brainy brutes or at least some sot so brainy, some very brainy and a load of brutes in between

mark.leonard

kmick wrote: »

Ok brainy brutes or at least some sot so brainy, some very brainy and a load of brutes in between

lol:)

gaeilgegrinds

How one can judge an entire group of peoples' intelligence by their profession is simply beyond me?! Amazing...

cornbb

SyxPak wrote: »

Honestly, with some of the sh1t I've seen pissheads getting up to, I would lay waste to a large slice of Irish society in a heartbeat. Feckless moronic wastrels. Keeps the publicans in 7-series, S-classes and Discoveries though, so I guess they're good for something.

I hate stupid violent pissheads as much as the next man but thats no excuse for bouncers to behave in the same manner. Violence in a professional capacity is in an even worse league than the dickheadedness of the drooling pisshead brigade.

I've had some brilliant memorable drunken conversations with bouncers while smoking, usually outside smaller/quieter establishments, so I guess the troublesome/moronic ones are a minority. But there is absolutely no situation where violent behaviour from a bouncer can be condoned, either legally or ethically. I appreciate that dealing with the aforementioned pissheads can sometimes be tough but restraining them til the Gardai arrive is all they should be allowed to do. No digs, kicks, punches or dragging them into the back rooms of the club for god knows what.

If any bouncer questions the assertion that they should not behave violently under any circumstances I'd question their fitness to be working in that industry - an industry supposed to be there for the paying public's protection.

Frankieboy

First off I'd like to say that I understand where everyone that says, bouncers should not use excessive force, are coming from, they shouldn't simple as.

But where/if this happens it's not as if they are picking people at random. Prevention is better than cure and if bouncers nip a fellas attitude in the bud before he can cause serious harm then I have no problem with them using a bit of extra force. Now I mean there is a limit.

I can't say that I believe the OP story 100%, but thats just my opinion. Some people just don't like bouncers and will fluff up a story.

Some people when they are drinking think they can take on the world, they swan around knocking into people and what not thinking they are untouchable.

I have never seen any bouncers in Cuba using excessive force, and nothing like what the OP says. I used to work with one of them, and you can't meet a nicer guy. I don't fear being beating up by any bouncers in Galway nevermind Cuba, but then again I don't act like an asshole* when I'm out. Here's an idea why don't people stop acting like assholes when they drink? Surely there would be no question on whether or not a bouncers actions were excessive then.

*Once again my opinion.

mark.leonard

cornbb wrote: »

I hate stupid violent pissheads as much as the next man but thats no excuse for bouncers to behave in the same manner. Violence in a professional capacity is in an even worse league than the dickheadedness of the drooling pisshead brigade.

I presume you are excusing hitting someone back when they hit you from this statement so I will let it slide.

cornbb wrote: »

....No digs, kicks, punches or dragging them into the back rooms of the club for god knows what.

The days when you could drag someone into a back room and give them some attitude readjustment are nearly ten years gone now. These days the guards will crash down on a team that does that and the excuse that there was no camera coverage in an area where something happens now counts against doormen and is no defence at all. It doesn't happen, not in Galway at any rate. Most doormen these days are constantly fearful of legal retribution, because that is the route most scumbags take these days when they can't get the upper hand. So you are correct, excessive force used by a bouncer is not just wrong, its dangerous and seriously jeopardises your liberty. Doorstaff know that and take great steps not to take the risk.

cornbb wrote: »

If any bouncer questions the assertion that they should not behave violently under any circumstances I'd question their fitness to be working in that industry - an industry supposed to be there for the paying public's protection.

Again, I presume you are ignoring the context of self defence? I have been in plenty scuffles on doors that I did not provoke and in several of those cases I had no choice but to strike back with prejudice or find myself making a trip to a and e, EVERY time that happened the aggressors went to the guards
, but as I had waited for sufficient justification no charges were ever upheld. To be honest the legal system is becoming more and more biased against doormen, Punter A decides to take a bad night out on a bouncer, he attacks and is defeated, so to get his pound of flesh he goes to the guards. Punter B decides the same and attacks and defeats the bouncer and heads off into the night satisfied. Many bouncers don't press charges in these cases, and that is the main impediment to dissuading punters form "having a go". Would this thread have been as busy if it was a bouncer the OP saw being tackled? I really do hope so.

cornbb

Just to clarify, my "drooling pisshead brigade" references were talking about the violent crowd the bouncers are up against, not the bouncers.

I appreciate that doormen are dealing with tricky situations and violent people, some of them genuinely dangerous scumbags (remember Brian Fitzgerald who was murdered in Limerick for clamping down on drug dealing in Doc's nightclub?) but I still don't see how hitting back improves any situation. If a drunk guy takes a swing at a bouncer, surely the safest course of action is to restrain him? Now I'm not too familiar with the mechanics of getting into a scuffle with a drunk guy (thankfully) but 99% of the time it appears to me that:

1) There are always more bouncers than there are troublesome punters.
2) The doormen, being sober and anticipating the situation, should have the capacity to restrain the guy if necessary before sending him on his way or calling the cops.

Hitting back is only increasing the risk of injury to both parties surely? And increasing the risk of legal action against the doorman/establishment?

mark.leonard

cornbb wrote: »

Just to clarify, my "drooling pisshead brigade" references were talking about the violent crowd the bouncers are up against, not the bouncers.

I appreciate that doormen are dealing with tricky situations and violent people, some of them genuinely dangerous scumbags (remember Brian Fitzgerald who was murdered in Limerick for clamping down on drug dealing in Doc's nightclub?) but I still don't see how hitting back improves any situation. If a drunk guy takes a swing at a bouncer, surely the safest course of action is to restrain him? Now I'm not too familiar with the mechanics of getting into a scuffle with a drunk guy (thankfully) but 99% of the time it appears to me that:

1) There are always more bouncers than there are troublesome punters.
2) The doormen, being sober and anticipating the situation, should have the capacity to restrain the guy if necessary before sending him on his way or calling the cops.

Hitting back is only increasing the risk of injury to both parties surely? And increasing the risk of legal action against the doorman/establishment?

I agree 100% with both your points, but it is still unavoidable at times. You don't always outnumber the troublemakers, one of the reasons Stags and the ilk are given the third degree before being let in to many places.

As far as the second point I can safely say that either through weight of numbers, or sobriety's advantage most guys can be restrained but there are some pretty big guys out there and if you try and restrain someone like that when numbers are against you, it can work out quite badly for you.

In short there are definitely situations when you are forced to resort to striking instead of restraint, its unfortunate but true.

I know plenty other bouncers that lurk on boards so feel free to weigh in with your opinions guys.

Fey!

Mark is spot on in what he's said so far (from a bouncers point of view).

Just to tackle a couple of assumptions from this thread:
1) ALL bouncers are brainless idiots - many of the doorstaff in Galway have degrees and, in a few cases, MAs. A former lecturer of mine in NUIG was also a doorman in CUBA. Also, many of the doorstaff in Galway operate their own business' away from the security industry.
2) If you screw with a bouncer you're going to get hurt - no; in my experience you're more likely just to get barred.
3) Some bouncers are just out to ruin your night - MOST bouncers are there to help make your night as pleasurable as possible.

Here's an example for you: you see 3 bouncers carrying a guy down the emergency stairs of a pub. Do you assume:
1) the doorstaff were being thick ignorant idiots who just grabbed the first person they saw just for fun
2) they were carrying out a guy who had been caught following a woman into the ladies toilet and who then attempted to bite one of the doorstaff, who thought it more prudent and safer to get help carrying the guy down the stairs in case he dropped the guy carrying him on his own
3) other random stuff?

Answers on a postcard please...

JohnCleary

mark.leonard wrote: »

That story has to be rubbish, the liability you would open the club up to treating someone like that would get any bouncer anywhere sacked in a heartbeat.

Why would I lie? What do I have to gain by lieing?

I spent over 3 hours (impatiently) waiting in causalty that night and had to go back the next day to get my jacket from Cuba. They pulled the glass out of her foot and escorted her out eventhough she didn't want to. Once she was outside they didn't want to know about her, she could hardly walk. I brought her to causalty incase the wound got infected

-Edit- Out of silent protest, I don't go to Cuba anymore, it's put me off going there. So i'm hardly not going to a niteclub anymore because of a story I made up :rolleyes:

Panthro

Fracture wrote: »

Your an idiot.

Jesus i could say so so so much more but im tired and going to bed.

think its well past ur bed time buddy!
i witnessed a cupla lads tryin to get into the club,refused and when they didnt obey strait away,they were surrounded.
one did the usual verbal ur an asshole,one bouncer took offence to that,and scuffle.
as i wasnt drinkin at the time,im 90% sure they werent dealin,as they simply werent standin around long enuf!
they didnt look too interested in pick pocketin,more out on the pull and a few pints along the way kinda blokes.
they ran away but were chased.
thats my story!

david1two3

Being a doorman is dead easy if your not looking for it, if on the other hand you want some theyll smell you a mile away.The only people I ever went for were intent on attacking some young kid who had annoyed them and they chased him only for the kid to hide in our restaurant and I and others told them in no uncertain fashion what the rules were.There was a lot of pushing but no one got hit. Every one else I just pleaded nappy disfunction and any other self depracating nonsense that sprung to mind and if they wanted to hit me then I would have responded, it never happened and I was on from 2300 till 6am on Compton street on the door of the most drug addled restaurant I have ever seen. I was also complimented by several women on the night as the best doorman they had ever seen. A largely thankless job made more so by people who had previously felt themselves to be above me and demonstrating this by completely ignoring me, all of a sudden they would say hello and nod to me. I previously had reason to want to talk to them but after thre transformation of my status I was not at all interested.

SimpleSam06

SyxPak wrote: »

Honestly, with some of the sh1t I've seen pissheads getting up to, I would lay waste to a large slice of Irish society in a heartbeat. Feckless moronic wastrels. Keeps the publicans in 7-series, S-classes and Discoveries though, so I guess they're good for something.

Post of the thread tbh.