Keano OOUUTTT!

Necronomicon

I also think some of the grudges against Keane and Sunderland are ridiculous. In fact, I've seen way more Reading jerseys around the place with Doyle on the back than Sunderland jerseys. But I'm not gonna get into all that now.

Keane certainly isn't above criticism - what he did last year was spectacular, no doubt about it (and anyone who denies that has blinkers on). I thought he did very well in the transfer market, bringing in the likes of Miller, Yorke, Edwards etc. But this season, some of his summer signings really left me scratching my head. Higginbottom, Anderson, Halford to name a few. Jones and Gordon were his only quality signings, and that's not a great return from the amount of money he spent.

Still, I do think they will stay up. First thing they need to do is get Edwards and Whitehead back. Then they need to get to January, where no doubt Quinn will open his cheque book again. Then Keane needs to bring some quality in.

eirebhoy

Pigman II wrote: »

Why can't he be the organizer if he's on the way to being such a class act?

What players of his age are leading the line in defence? Dunne was terrible at 21 if left to his own devices. O'Brien? We already saw what he was like playing beside O'Shea. Probably the worst defensive performance I've seen from Ireland players (Cyprus was bad but that was mainly down to having no midfield). I just can't see McShane failing to be a success. I know I'm probably alone in that thinking now though.

Pigman II

eirebhoy wrote: »

What players of his age are leading the line in defence? Dunne was terrible at 21 if left to his own devices. O'Brien? We already saw what he was like playing beside O'Shea. Probably the worst defensive performance I've seen from Ireland players (Cyprus was bad but that was mainly down to having no midfield). I just can't see McShane failing to be a success. I know I'm probably alone in that thinking now though.

John Terry and Rio Ferdinand were both leading CB's at their clubs at 21. I'm sure there's lots of other examples past and present in the prem and in other top leagues. The fact alone that McShane was rejected by United shows he's not up to it. Ferguson doesn't let many go that come back to haunt him.

Fair play to you if you can see something in McShane. All I've seen is a limited guy who busted his gut on his international debut when we were looking for somone/anyone to make us forget about about the disaster in Cyprus and who has been given a free ticket ever since.

eirebhoy

In fairness, motm in nearly every game he played for Brighton. It's only Championship level I know but he's hardly built a reputation on one game.

Pigman II

He's building quite a reputation for himself lately too, and that isn't on one game either.

An Citeog

Pigman II wrote: »

John Terry and Rio Ferdinand were both leading CB's at their clubs at 21. I'm sure there's lots of other examples past and present in the prem and in other top leagues. The fact alone that McShane was rejected by United shows he's not up to it. Ferguson doesn't let many go that come back to haunt him.

Fair play to you if you can see something in McShane. All I've seen is a limited guy who busted his gut on his international debut when we were looking for somone/anyone to make us forget about about the disaster in Cyprus and who has been given a free ticket ever since.

How many of Ireland's centre halves would get into the United, Liverpool, Arsenal or Chelsea first team. Just because he was let go by United doesn't mean he's not up to it as a professional footballer. He lacks the pace to make it to the very top but at 21, he's one of the brightest defensive prospects we've had in a while.

Pigman II

An Citeog wrote: »

How many of Ireland's centre halves would get into the United, Liverpool, Arsenal or Chelsea first team. Just because he was let go by United doesn't mean he's not up to it as a professional footballer. He lacks the pace to make it to the very top but at 21, he's one of the brightest defensive prospects we've had in a while.

See my examples. Ferdinand was at West Ham. Terry was at (pre-Abramovich) Chelsea. Neither club was hardly champions League material at the time so I'm not even setting the bar as high as you presume.

kryogen

LMFAO at the Ferdinand and Terry comments, are you ****ting me??? you think they were the leading centre halves at 21????? i think the older more experienced centre halves that were guiding them in their early careers might disagree

Pigman II

kryogen wrote: »

LMFAO at the Ferdinand and Terry comments, are you ****ting me??? you think they were the leading centre halves at 21????? i think the older more experienced centre halves that were guiding them in their early careers might disagree

So who was the older more experienced guy at West Ham? Ian Pearce/Neil Ruddock? Yes I'm sure Rio will look back on his career in years to come and acknowledge those two worldbeaters taught him everything he knows.

OMG, FTW, LOL etc.

Call Me Jimmy

Is it just me or is mcshane the worst centre half in our universe?

kryogen

Also Julian Dicks, all highly experienced players who if you think had no bearing on him whatsoever, im sorry, but you just know absolutely nothing about football.... or you enjoy making public displays of ignorance.

and yes using capital letters did make you look very very cool

Pigman II

Dicks was almost completely absent from the team the season Ferdinand established himself as a first team player at West Ham. He was gone the following season. Now who's displaying thier ignorance?

As for the capitals letters, you started it kiddo so try cutting that out in future. However, I think there's a kiddies board over in yahoo.com if you really feel the urge to continue writing like a 6year old who just got their first fisher-price laptop.

Bungalow Bill

Jonny Arson wrote: »

jury is out on Keane for me

imo Sunderland have one of the weakest squads in terms of ability in the Premiership and this should not have been the case when you were given a chequebook of £30+ million.... Higginbotham, Halford, McShane (yes, he is shockingly overrrated), Chopra, Etuhu are not Premiership players and were very questionable signings from day one. he made too many signings, the continuity of last seasons very decent squad is smashed when you sign 12 new players, he would have been better off adding 5 or 6 really quality signings instead of some of the mediocrity he brought in. aside from Gordon, Jones and Richardson i fail to see where they are a significantly improved team from last season.
of course he did well to get them promoted last season, with a chequebook or not promotion is an achievement in itself and required good management, however football is cutthroat and with that level of money spent Sunderland should not be comtemplating the word 'relegation' this season. ok with so many new players it may take longer than you would imagine to gel but he needs to turn them around very soon or the 'chequebook manager' jibes may very well become justified.

This problem with this is that is exactly what he has done.

Jonny Evans and Danny Simpson were loan deals and part of last seasons first team. So already he has lost half of his defence.
One of his major signings in Richardson has also been out all season.
As I pointed out, Whitehead and Edwards were probably last seasons two best players and they have been out up until now.

I say judge them when the majority of team is fully fit. I'll go on record in saying that they will give chelsea a hell of a game in two weeks

DSB

Not a Keane fan myself. I hate the spin of how he took them from bottom to top. In reality there was only a few games gone out of 46. And he had a superior squad of players to most of the rest in my opinion. Leeds' inevitable promotion will belittle this achievement. His signings during the summer were poor at best. He doesn't seem to sign too many players that haven't been at clubs during his career with him, or Irish players. He would have been able to get players of a similar quality at a much lower budget. This is probably what he should have done as there would have been less expectance on his shoulders come the end of the season. Couldn't imagine Quinn sacking him even if they went down though.

Gavin "shels"

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

Is that all you ever post about?

In Keane's first season with Sunderland he won the championship, they were in 23rd place at one stage during the season and Keane changed that. Right they're not doing to good in the Premiership, but what did you expect 14 games into the season, Sunderland to be top:rolleyes:

Chucky the tree

Gavin shels wrote: »

In Keane's first season with Sunderland he won the championship, they were in 23rd place at one stage during the season and Keane changed that. Right they're not doing to good in the Premiership, but what did you expect 14 games into the season, Sunderland to be top:rolleyes:

Considering the amount of people who thought sunderland too finish in the top half half of the table this season was a great bet i wouldnt be suprised.

Kevster

Give him a chance. Most fans are understandably impatient but I find that it has become a bit ridiculous these past few seasons. Maybe it's because we are all getting more stressed in our regular lives but, anyway, I always think back to Alex Ferguson and Man Utd. He was on the verge of the sack all those years ago when Utd were in the relegation zone. He subsequently went on to win the leaguee 9 (?) times, many FA Cups, the European Cup, and a few League Cups I'm sure.

DSB

That Ferguson analogy can't be constantly used. Otherwise managers would never be sacked.

Melion

Gavin shels wrote: »

In Keane's first season with Sunderland he won the championship, they were in 23rd place at one stage during the season and Keane changed that. Right they're not doing to good in the Premiership, but what did you expect 14 games into the season, Sunderland to be top:rolleyes:

They had the best squad in the championship last year(bar WBA) as i said on the first page of this thread. They were expected to at least make the play-offs last season, it wasnt such a great achievement

ecoli

no one eems to mention the 1m he spent on roy o donovan from cork city who aint even made the bench however i think they will stay up as they have the financial backing(however bad most the transfers are) to give them enough depth for the second half of the season unlike some of the other clubs around the drop zone

~Rebel~

Melion wrote: »

They had the best squad in the championship last year(bar WBA) as i said on the first page of this thread. They were expected to at least make the play-offs last season, it wasnt such a great achievement

You can kind of answered your own criticism there. It doesn't just take the best squad, as you said West Brom had a better squad which had been together longer, but they didn't win the league. Or even get promoted. So obviously there's a little more to it then that.

ecoli wrote: »

no one eems to mention the 1m he spent on roy o donovan from cork city who aint even made the bench

He did, came on a few times and I recall he started one as well. Not played particularly well admittedly, but he hasn't just been left by the wayside since he joined.

redspider

Well, the 7-1 defeat was a fiasco, and is a sign that relegation is possible. However, there is a long way to go, things are tight in the lower-half and anything could happen. One thing is for sure about the Sund-Ireland project is that this season is one of consolidation at best. Staying up in the top flight is the only aim this season and relegation would be a serious kick-back and dent in the financial project.

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Is it just me or is mcshane the worst centre half in our universe?

Not the worst, but he definitely got caught out over the weekend for a couple of route 1 goals and this along with his recent mistake in the Ireland match is a cause for concern. His confidence and a fear of giving away another penalty affected him.

However, he wasnt the only person to blame even for those route 1 goals. Where was his central half colleague, and at least in a couple of goals Gordan was not as sharp as he should be and was complicit. As were the cental midfielders. Of course, Yorke(ie) is playing there but I think he is just too slow (doesnt have the 'engine' to be able to play a meaningful role in the cente of the park. I have nothing against Yorke as he is 36 (yes, that's a six!). Its okay to be that age as a goalie or as a predatory stiker (ala Sheringham or kanu who plays like a 36 year old but is 31), but not in his 'new' role of central midfield in the english premeirship, one of the toughest levels for fitness and stamina in the world. He was constantly on the wrong side of his man.

> He doesn't seem to sign too many players that haven't been at clubs during his career with him, or Irish players.

I think the Irish players link is part of the Sund-Ireland project and not Keane's own making. Whether that's a good thing or not is another story. The Harry Redknapp philosophy is that he doesnt care where the player comes from, and apart from several hiccups it is working well for him. The same with Wenger. The ex-es link is also not the best way to select players. But other managers do it when moving to a new club so it is a done thing. Familiarity can help as better the devil you know sometimes.

Both of these methods only become negative when there is too much heart and not enough head put into the decisions. The January transfer window may tell us something more in relation to this, if the methods have changed (due to the predicament) or not.

One thing is for sure, and Gilesy is right about this, Roy would be better keeping his mouth shut about England's problems and instead concentrate on his own predicament.

Redspider

MrJoeSoap

Gavin shels wrote: »

In Keane's first season with Sunderland he won the championship, they were in 23rd place at one stage during the season and Keane changed that. Right they're not doing to good in the Premiership, but what did you expect 14 games into the season, Sunderland to be top:rolleyes:

Didn't expect anything other than what has actually happened to be honest, I was referring to the fact that you'll take any available chance to have a dig at the Irish football fans.

Gavin "shels"

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

I was referring to the fact that you'll take any available chance to have a dig at the Irish football fans.

And would you blame me. Real football fans support both international and national club football, not international and then international club football.:rolleyes:

Anyway off topic now back on.

MrJoeSoap

Gavin shels wrote: »

And would you blame me. Real football fans support both international and national club football, not international and then international club football.:rolleyes:

Anyway off topic now back on.

Real football fans don't preach. Yep, back on topic...

Pigman II

Real football fans feel smug and superior to everyone else no matter what.

Yeay, we're all real football fans!

Unearthly

Pigman II wrote: »

Real football fans feel smug and superior to everyone else no matter what.

Yeay, we're all real football fans!

You are a fake football fan, I hope that puts you down cause you deserve it ya big faker

aidan24326

DSB wrote: »

That Ferguson analogy can't be constantly used. Otherwise managers would never be sacked.

It's still relevant though. Why give managers 4 and 5*year contracts and then sack them after 5 minutes? Makes no sense and only costs the club money. There's Newcastle fans already calling for Allardyce's head and he only in the job a couple of months, you'd think they might have learned their lesson by now.

The huge money in the game is part of the problem, with clubs being big businesses the profits have to be kept ticking over and it means a manager gets no time to put any sort of longer term plan in place, it's all about results now now now.

*why on earth aren't manager started on something like a one-year deal with the option to extend?

Iago

Pigman II wrote: »

The fact alone that McShane was rejected by United shows he's not up to it.

He wasn't rejected by united

Pigman II wrote:

Ferguson doesn't let many go that come back to haunt him.

Quite a few players have left united and come back to either score against them or cause them problems.

Paul McGrath, Mark Hughes,Peter Schmeichel (not by choice), Jaap Stam, Gordon Strachan, David Beckham, Ruud van Nistlerooy etc

but I digress

OnTopic

I think Sunderland will stay up, I think Keane is doing a decent job in an unenviable position. He tried to sign some top class players over the summer but they didn't want to move to Sunderland, location as well as previous Sunderland failures in the premiership would hardly inspire confidence. I think Richardson will do well for him when fit, and Gordon could be the purchase that keeps Sunderland up.

He'll probably get a few loan signings in January, and maybe 1-2 decent but not outstanding premiership players. It'll be enough to keep them up and they can build on it from there. teams get pastings every now and then, in the greater scheme of things it doesn't mean a lot.

Pigman II

Iago wrote: »

Quite a few players have left united and come back to either score against them or cause them problems.

Paul McGrath, Mark Hughes,Peter Schmeichel (not by choice), Jaap Stam, Gordon Strachan, David Beckham, Ruud van Nistlerooy etc

I'm talking specifically about young upcoming players at the edge of the squad who were let go early but then went on to prove themselves elsewhere as good enough to play for Uniteds first team.

BaZmO*

Thought this thread was just a p1sstake at first but 5 pages on....

As for Keane, he won't be sacked, even if they get relegated he'll be kept. He's too important to the Sunderland "brand" to be given the heave ho. Unless of course his team keep on putting in performances like their last one.

With regards to his transfers so far, he has admitted himself that he has made mistakes and tbh I reckon he's learned a lot from what he needs to do in the transfer market to build a team to survive in the Premiership. Time will tell though.

As for people saying that his achievement of winning the Championship last year was not impressive because he had a big squad, WTF?? Are you blind or stupid. A manager in his first job winning the league in his first go doesn't impress people now?