New VRT Bands in todays Indo

Ice_Box

hmboards wrote: »

Aren't you applying the new VRT rate to the pre-VRT price instead of the new RRP though ? The new RRP needs to be worked out in order to calculate the new VRT...

Yeah, I think Im doing it wrong. Ill stop now.

Mailman

Now that they have VRT linked to CO2 emmissions we'll never get rid of it, ever!
Progress was being made with regard to it's illegality in various court cases.
The goal posts have now been shifted and cemented in place thanks to CO2.
It's fairer than it was but it's still an unfair tax.

CO2 based VRT and Motor Tax system in place.
If you own a 4x4 with high CO2 figures you're going to have to sell it quick or else the only way you'll be able to get rid of it at a respectable price is by exporting to the UK. I'm serious.

I can see Toyota bringing in the Japanese Yaris/Vitz with CVT which emits less than 120g of CO2 in response to this change. Only the Aygo gets under the threshold now.

I don't see how this is revenue neutral so I'm wondering where the shortfall in tax revenue will be taken from. Motor Tax perhaps but that would be extremely unfair on people who purchased based on previous taxation policy.
In the UK all older cars registered before the change were treated the same as they were prior to the introduction of the change.

smcgiff

Anybody got the VRT %'s above 170g?

hmboards

smcgiff wrote: »

Anybody got the VRT %'s above 170g?

0-120 ... 14%
121-140 ... 16%
141-155 ... 20%
156-170 ... 24%
171-190 ... 28%
191-225 ... 32%
225+ ... 36%

smcgiff

Thanks,

Looks like I'm loosing 2%. Not so bad I suppose, still it's taking some good out of my first ever new car purchase.

copacetic

E92 wrote: »

Please see post number 55, I've gone into quite some detail as to why what I calculated is actually correct.

apologies, I am actually stunned that is how they do it.

However you still aren't quite right, you can indeed just take off 25% to get the price without VRT, but you then need to calculate the new price at say 20% VRT, and then recalculate the VRT on the new price and add it on to the original price. Does that make sense?

E92

JHMEG wrote: »

I wouldn't be getting too excited just yet: this is the motor industry, backed by SIMI we're on about, and their greed hasn't been factored in. If the end price winds up say 5% cheaper than now, expect the dealer to happily absorb that.

SIMI have achieved some spectacular results for their members including stuff like this pay-VAT-twice-thing if the car is under 6 months old to make it impossible for Joe Blogs to import a new car.

Well of course this 100% true, but it is illegal to to sell cars for different pre tax prices(which is one of the reasons why VRT has made car prices go up here while in VRT free countries like the UK the prices have gone down in recent times) for cars that are exactly the same spec, make and model, so I don't see how they can get away with this, especially as more and more makes are importing and distributing the cars themselves(BMW, Mazda, Renault, VW, Audi, Skoda come 1/1/08 will be doing it all themselves, of course I know BMW and Mazda have been doing it themselves for quite sometime now). That's not to say it won't happen of course though:D.

.Longshanks.

Can somebody clarify what happens to cars currently ordered for Jan '08 deliverly?
I after a 1.6 which gives off 190g/KM. Under the current rules the VRT is 25%. Under the new proposals the VRT will be 28% (171-190 g/KM) - an increase of 3%.
Will this effect me, as it only comes in July '08?

E92

copacetic wrote: »

However you still aren't quite right, you can indeed just take off 25% to get the price without VRT, but you then need to calculate the new price at say 20% VRT, and then recalculate the VRT on the new price and add it on to the original price. Does that make sense?

Sorry I don't really understand what you are saying.

This is my understanding of what happens when you change VRT.

Lets go for the 318d SE(again), which has an OMSP of €47,650, and 30% VRT.

70% of 47,650 is €33,355. This is what the car would cost if we didn't have VRT. It turns out that you add on around 43% to the pre VRT price to get the price of VRT(to get the price when VRT is 30%).

So what would the car cost if VRT went down to 16%?

Well 100-16 is 84. So €33,355 is now 84% of what the total price will be.

So 1% gives 397.08. So the price with VRT gives us €39,708.

By a similar reasoning, if VRT went up to 36%, €33,355 would now be 64% of the car's total price with VRT. So 1% gives about €521.17, so the total price would now be €52,117.19.

My apologies if I misunderstood you, but I think this shows what you were trying to say is not possible as far as I know.

Anchises

This link will allow you to calculate the VRT - under the current scheme...
Maybe it will dispell all doubts , if you test it with your figures

https://www.ros.ie/VRTEnquiryServlet/ShowVRT
A.

HarryHood

So having put down a grand for a 08 316 should I cancel the order and wait another year to buy or?

Any final thoughts/advice?

smcgiff

HarryHood wrote: »

So having put down a grand for a 08 316 should I cancel the order and wait another year to buy or?

Any final thoughts/advice?

I think you should buy a 04 2.0t SAAB 93 in January!

smcgiff

Longshanks100 wrote: »

Will this effect me, as it only comes in July '08?

I don't think so.

Personally I'll be pissed if I have to pay old VRT rates and new road tax after the upcoming budget on my 159.

HarryHood

Guess I'll have to kiss a grand deposit goodbye

smcgiff

HarryHood wrote: »

Guess I'll have to kiss a grand deposit goodbye

Can you cancel the 316i and put the €1k towards a 320d?

Lex Luthor

so is VRT charged on VAT on VAT charged on VRT?

pburns

HarryHood wrote: »

Guess I'll have to kiss a grand deposit goodbye

O stop being such a big girl!

If you really want a 316 I suspect there will be very little difference. If anything it will cost more in July. The gap between petrol/diesel will probably come down substantially though. But it's early days and there are too many variables at work to understand how this will pan out.

TBH, even pre-VRT changes a 316 was a mugs choice. Sorry to be so blunt but that's just the size of it.

Aidan Mc

glad to see that finally something is being done with VRT. the 'fairness' of VRT is a debate for a different day, but at least these new proposals should bring about a situation where people are encouraged to buy cleaner engines, not peanalised for it.

Having downloaded the latest SIMI Recommended Price Guide from simi.ie I've done a few quick calculations, taking the Renault range as an example. I've calculated the new prices for all models, engines, etc on the Renault list and by my calculations the following would happen to the list prices:

Twingo - price falls by €1269-1362
Clio Campus - falls by €1170
Clio III - 1.2 falls by €1269-1389, 1.6auto & 2.0 rise by €921 & €941
Modus - falls by €1315
Megane hatch - 1.4 rises by €4008-449, 1.5dci falls by €3204-3428
New Laguna - 1.5dCi falls by €2849-3273, 2.0dCi falls by €2900 (€1100 for auto), 1.6 rises by €1100
Espace/Grand Espace/Trafic bus - rise by €1200-1600 for 2.0 dCi in each

These are just my estimates. Of course, all these calculations (and those by other people here) assume that the ex-VRT price doesn't change. Perhaps we could see a situation where manufacturers make the diesel models more expensive and reduce the petrols in order to keep sales balanced (and to keep them competitive against other makes/models etc). Just a thought! I hope that the manufacturers will be decent enough to pass on as much as possible of the revised rates.

Also, the government stated the the new system of VRT and Motor Tax would apply to cars registered for the first time after the date (i.e. New cars and imports), so buying a new car in January should mean stick to current rates of both VRT and Motor Tax. The old motor tax system based on cc's will remain in place for all cars which have been registered under that system (though I expect there could be general increase of 4-5% on these rates in the budget).

By the way, I made my calculations using Excel formulaes. The formula is somewhat complicated in order to get the actual ex-VRT working back from the OMSP, but here is what I used and I THINK it's right (though I am open to correction)
Let's take a Megane Estate 1.5 dCi 106 Dynamique. Currently €27450, 25% VRT, 124g/km -> now 16% VRT
=(27450-(27450*0.25))/(1-0.16) gives new price of €24509 by this calculation

Henry Ford III

Renaults are still rubbish

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

so I don't see how they can get away with this,

Buy a brand new car in the UK, and you've paid 17.5% VAT. Bring it in here a month later and you have to pay an additional 21% VAT, and then the VRT.

If SIMI can swing that one, they can swing anything.

Aidan Mc

let's not get into how good or bad renaults are! i was just trying to give an example of the differences across different engines & models

Golferx

This revision of VRT shows the absolute lunacy of the system.

The VRT rates are scheduled to change, however, according to Govt propaganda, the VRT is a percentage of the Open Market Selling Price (OMSP),

Now if the OMSP is really "Open", the OMSP of any car should not change after the VRT revision as the VRT is simply a percentage of the Selling price. If the OMSP was open then the market would dictate the selling price of the car, not the sellers.

However this is Rip Off Ireland and the OMSP is anything but Open. It's a direct result of collusion between the Govt and one importer. There is nothing open about the price, it is fixed, it is anti-competitive and, should any anti-trust lawyer try it, absolutely illegal.

SIMI will not do anything about it, they do not care. Go into any dealership today and you will not be told what VRT is being paid on any new car. (The reason for this is the dealer selling the car for more than the OMSP, pocketing the VRT percentage on the difference.) The Motor Industry colludes with thie illegality and any protestation to the contrary is nothing but crocodile tears.

CrowdedHouse

Here's the figures I got for a BMW 320d recently,might help with calculations:



E90 320d SE Saloon 2.0: Price-30,678.10 VAT 6,442.40 VRT 13,729.50 TOTAL 50,850.00

colm_mcm

JHMEG wrote: »

Buy a brand new car in the UK, and you've paid 17.5% VAT. Bring it in here a month later and you have to pay an additional 21% VAT, and then the VRT.

If SIMI can swing that one, they can swing anything.

you get the UK VAT back. how does giving money to the government through ROS every time a car is registered benefit SIMI or it's members?

copacetic

colm_mcm wrote: »

you get the UK VAT back. how does giving money to the government through ROS every time a car is registered benefit SIMI or it's members?

it means that people are much less likely to buy in the UK, hence it keeps them going to Irish dealers.

j2dab

hmboards wrote: »

0-120 ... 14%
121-140 ... 16%
141-155 ... 20%
156-170 ... 24%
171-190 ... 28%
191-225 ... 32%
225+ ... 36%

Are these 100%?

Also, is there any good websites to check list of "g CO2/km" on different cars?

Aidan Mc

Golferx wrote: »

If the OMSP was open then the market would dictate the selling price of the car, not the sellers.

Unfortunatley, there are very few "open markets" as such. Theoretically, if it was open it would mean that if there were 300 cars manufactured and available to be sold and 400 people wanted new cars, then the 300 people who pay the most money would get the cars. And you might say that this happens to an extent already, but then it would be virtually impossbile for a manufacturer or dealer to put a value on a car. So instead they base them loosely on two things: (i) how much it actually costs to make, distribute, etc plus profits along the way and (ii) how much people would actually be willing to pay.

They know how much a car costs, add the VAT and whatever other charges and then add the VRT to give the final selling price. They calculate it backwards really given that VRT is a percentage of the final cost. The calculation system should be clearer, and the prices at dealers and on price lists should be more transparent so people know exactly how much Vat, VRT, etc they pay

colm_mcm

Golferx wrote: »

Go into any dealership today and you will not be told what VRT is being paid on any new car. (The reason for this is the dealer selling the car for more than the OMSP, pocketing the VRT percentage on the difference.) .

If anyone asks me what the VRT on a car is, I have no problem telling them. they never do, unless it's for a pickup and it affects the VAT figure.

The VRT for every particular car is decided before the car is even sold. Each car gets a "birth cert" with the model type and any factory options on it.
when the car is being registered online, the statistical code and birth cert number for the car is entered, this tells ROS exactly what model it is, all details like chassis number. and how much VRT is to be charged.
Because of this, the dealer has no control on how much VRT is applied, and whether a certain model of car is sold for €20,000 or €25,000 the VRT paid is exactly the same.

drunkdaz

Woah. So the top rate of VRT now goes up to 36%? This in effect means that cars at that rate effectively pay 89% tax!
eg car at €100,000
Including VAT = €121,000
With VRT equal to 36% of the final price that means 121,000 is 64% so final OMSP is €189,062!

Thats insane. I'm sure this band will take in a lot of pretty average cars.

smcgiff

j2dab wrote: »

Are these 100%?

Also, is there any good websites to check list of "g CO2/km" on different cars?

www.parkers.co.uk is pretty good. Go into reviews for the car you want and look up the facts and figures - performance.