All non EU citizens to be figerprinted

Capt'n Midnight

MIN2511 wrote: »

LMAO
Very true, I guess that would be next. Micro chips, like animals?

It's the old "no fixed abode" problem. Most Irish citizens have a know address and have documents like RSI cards and birth certs that the state can checkup on. The Irish state can't do the same background checks on non-nationals because quite rightly they won't have access to foreign databases.

One big brother solution is to ban ready to go phones that aren't registered to a passport or other acceptable proof of identity. Could be done tomorrow, and then you'd have to register to get it working again. State knows who registered the phone and where it is. Not even remotely foolproof but it could be implemented at almost zero cost starting tomorrow.

Most Irish people are already trackable, even with pre-pay phones with a little cross referencing of numbers dialed to eircom land land line, the electoral registor and Thoms directory not to mention the other gov't databases. Foreign nationals would not be as easy to trace in the same way.

The new Irish passports are RFID too. This means that like most EU/US citizens we will be totally tracable at point of entry.

BTW:
Chipping people has begun on a "voluntary" basis for employees of some high tech companies.

Do I see a problem with validating my passport or RSI card with a finger print ?
I'd prefer it to using a PIN. If used more (and with a proper hash function / salting) it would reduce the risk of credit card and ATM card theft as well as reducing fake documents.

Short version
I've no problem with a person needing to prove their identity before accessing services and feel strongly about personation regardless of who it's done by and don't feel the penalties actually imposed here are a sufficient deterant for stuff like electoral fraud.
I do object to general tracking and recording unless part of a specific investigation.

Overheal

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

One big brother solution is to ban ready to go phones that aren't registered to a passport or other acceptable proof of identity. Could be done tomorrow, and then you'd have to register to get it working again. State knows who registered the phone and where it is. Not even remotely foolproof but it could be implemented at almost zero cost starting tomorrow.

Most Irish people are already trackable, even with pre-pay phones with a little cross referencing of numbers dialed to eircom land land line, the electoral registor and Thoms directory not to mention the other gov't databases. Foreign nationals would not be as easy to trace in the same way.

Its thinking like this, that has me wound up :mad: here we are already onto phone tapping and tracking. Its disgusting.

They have this in the states now: Sprint PCS has a new generation of mobiles that allow you to find the GPS location of all your friends! How cool is that! Except *snap* darnit, the government watches you drive down the road to the supermarket and back. Despite the obvious benefits (Emergency services) I'd much rather hang onto my privacy. Thanks.

Its not fair on anyone, really. Why single out non-EU though? 2/3 of the non nationals in this country derive from the EUnion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:NonnationalsIreland2006.png

Vorsprung

ronoc wrote: »

With an argument this compelling who needs hard facts!

http://www.ndsc.ie/hpsc/A-Z/VaccinePreventable/TuberculosisTB/Publications/AnnualReportsontheEpidemiologyofTBinIreland/File,1522,en.pdf

Knock yourself out.

humbert

bigjimthefirst wrote: »

http://www.ndsc.ie/hpsc/A-Z/VaccinePreventable/TuberculosisTB/Publications/AnnualReportsontheEpidemiologyofTBinIreland/File,1522,en.pdf

Knock yourself out.

Am I right in reading that that says one third of TB incidents were from people not born in Ireland? Is that not a very large percentage?

Capt'n Midnight

Overheal wrote: »

Its thinking like this, that has me wound up :mad: here we are already onto phone tapping and tracking. Its disgusting.

They have this in the states now: Sprint PCS has a new generation of mobiles that allow you to find the GPS location of all your friends! How cool is that! Except *snap* darnit, the government watches you drive down the road to the supermarket and back. Despite the obvious benefits (Emergency services) I'd much rather hang onto my privacy. Thanks.

Its not fair on anyone, really. Why single out non-EU though? 2/3 of the non nationals in this country derive from the EUnion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:NonnationalsIreland2006.png

It's not GPS it's based on the masts.
Traiangluation by mobile phone is technically possible to within a few meters. The emergency services in the US wanted position info, the civli liberties were against it. The compromise worked was to have the info limited to 100m can't remember the exact distance.

most EU nationals have a legal right to be here and most have or will have cyber passports. If someone can't produce a traceable EU passport or ID card then of course they'd be fingerprinted.

As for we are already into phone tapping, all phone calls and internet traffic via the UK or US has been monitored for ages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON Voice recognition software on UK phone calls has been standard since at least the early 90's. Very little of our international traffic does not get routed through the UK or US. Main difference is that our own government is now legally allowed to do this and keep the data for 3 years ? even though the EU requirement is 6 months ?
Again it's another example of how someone with a fixed abode is far more tracable than a migrant. (also means that it's technically possible for the Guards to request similar traffic from other EU states.

daiixi

This is quite scary for the likes of me who is living in Ireland and fully obeys the law. It's not so much that I have anything to hide it's just that why should I trust anyone, any department, with all of my personal details AND fingerprints AND whatever else the government decides it wants from me down the line?
This week's blunder in the UK of someone posting the personal details of millions of people is scary. If I could be assured that my finger prints would be kept safe and not used for illicit purposes then I'd have no problem but noone can promise me that.
As it is I spend up to five/six hours every year registering my presence in the country (yes, every year even though my visa is valid for a number of years) and am then given an identification card (the picture on which barely ever resembles me anyway) which I'm never asked to produce - even when flying into the country. I don't see the point of any of this tbh.

RoyalMarine

all non eu people having their fingerprints recoreded.
what about all ue citizens? or do they not commit crimes??

how about an international non government run system where everyone has their finger prints taken, dna recorded, dental records, etc etc. and its all kept for life.

i would also support the microchipping of every human alive. monitored by satellites and such.
murderer's and rapists, crime, everything would be brought to justice so much easier.
along with missing persons.

Goldenquick

humbert wrote: »

Nobody said that, or even implied that.

Read post No. 37. I did think better of how my words would come across a few minutes later and apologised .

humbert

Goldenquick wrote: »

Read post No. 37. I did think better of how my words would come across a few minutes later and apologised .

My point is that nobody is suggesting fingerprinting will have an affect on disease control and neither was Mairt in that post. However I agree with you that immigration has nothing to do with MRSA which is what was suggested.

ParkRunner

Lands Leaving wrote: »

A way around it? what do they do? lop off someone elses hand?

I can't say how they do it here im afraid. Where there's a will there's a way though

Mr.Micro

Richard W wrote: »

I don't see why anyone would be opposed to having a record of their fingerprint on file. It's simply another form of identification. To say that it's on par with a microchip implanted in you is absolutely ridiculous. It's much more comparable to a record of your name.

I am sure all the crime gangs in Dublin would be delighted to take part in a fingerprinting session .All this finger printing of non EU people is bizarre and pointless.Do people seriously think that it will stop at that .Next its all of the country and DNA as well for a database .

Terry

bigjimthefirst wrote: »

Foreigners make up something like 10% of the population. I would be very surprised if that same group committed more than 10% of crime here. But if you got figures I'll stand to be corrected.

Gonig by my local rag, about 35% of traffic offences are committed by foreigners.
About 20% of assaults are committed by foreigners.
About 30% of shop lifting offences are committed by foreigners.

I'll buy next weeks copy and go through the court pages and get exact figures.

Mr.Micro

There is plenty of crime in Ireland committed by the Irish themselves .It is easy to blame the foreign people. Us Irish are not so innocent abroad are we .Its traumatic for people coming to live in a foreign country and poverty ,stress ,alcohol abuse brawling can be a result of that trauma hence a crime in pristine unforgiving Ireland .

MIN2511

Imagine if you had to be fingerprinted before you enter any country, ryanair wont be able to charge us for priority boarding:D
To get into the Uk or other countries i have to pay for a tourist visa. They ask for bank statements, non refundable visa fees(ridiculous amount= British embassy-200 upwards for 2 years), proof of income and other documents that i cant remember. I would then go through a process of waiting for weeks, Irish embassy=6weeks. And when i get here i could be pulled for fingerprinting, dna, maybe micro chipped:D now tell me why i would bring my business here???
Everyone complains about the American Immigration yet ye would want to introduce such procedures here......
talk about double standards!!!!!!!!!

Mr.Micro

I think its because the government has let things go so much that some bright spark said lets fingerprint everybody and a bit of DNA as well, start with the non EU lot as they cant object ,then the rest including us Irish then we just have to feed the data into a machine and the Gardai get a result without doing sweet FA.Imagine all that data including all visitors from the US etc ,stored where ?? lol .We cant even run a health service .

Killaqueen!!!

I've yet to see a valid reason NOT to fingerprint all non-EU citizens. Should fingerprint anyone who comes into Ireland, EU or not. DNA profiling wouldn't be a bad idea. If it helps solve crimes why the hell are people disagreeing? Because they'd feel 'uncomfortable' with the government having identification? Boo hoo...

Microchipping is a bit ridiculous..

daiixi

Sure, if they fingerprint everyone who enters Ireland then they should fingerprint every Irish person too.

wazzoraybelle

This is one of the most repulsive threads I've read on boards.
Sounds like a meeting of the nazi party.

I presume the people supporting the detention/fingerprinting/dna testing/ medical and criminal screening support this for north americans/australians visiting our country or are white english speaking christians exempt!!
You are the people that need to be kept under watch!

btw you'll be pleased to know I'm an Irish born white person.

Mr.Micro

What crimes are we talking about anyway .Petty and drunk and disorderly ,thats the main crimes I read week in and out in my local rag.like you really need dabs and DNA for them .The big crimes leave no trace so what exactly is the point of the fingerprinting .Finger prints ,Dna the lot no use in the McCann case and we all have learned a lot more that such evidence is not all its cracked up to be .Can be transferred ,planted etc .The proposal in the Examiner smacks of xenophobia .

Terry

wazzoraybelle wrote: »

This is one of the most repulsive threads I've read on boards.
Sounds like a meeting of the nazi party.

I presume the people supporting the detention/fingerprinting/dna testing/ medical and criminal screening support this for north americans/australians visiting our country or are white english speaking christians exempt!!
You are the people that need to be kept under watch!

btw you'll be pleased to know I'm an Irish born white person.

I'm white, Irish and was raised Catholic.
The cops have my fingerprints.
I couldn't give a flying fúck that they have them because I have no intention of going out and breaking any laws.

wazzoraybelle

Wouldn't it be easier and cheaper if we justy made all non eu people wear something to indicate they are not eu citizens. something small, maybe a star, yeah a star.. stars are pretty. Surely those people couldn't object, not if they've got nothing to hide.:(


I thought we went through this in the late 90's. SAD. SAD. SAD.

Catari Jaguar

Um, hate to make common sense but... won't it be difficult to fingerprint all the illegal immigrants the the state arent even aware are here? I imagine if they are here to do illicit activities they keep an oul low profile....

I think it's a great idea though, I mean if you need to be finger printed in teh airport just to go on holiday to the US, then you should need to get finger printed if you intend to live here.

MagicMarker

wazzoraybelle wrote: »

This is one of the most repulsive threads I've read on boards.
Sounds like a meeting of the nazi party.

I presume the people supporting the detention/fingerprinting/dna testing/ medical and criminal screening support this for north americans/australians visiting our country or are white english speaking christians exempt!!
You are the people that need to be kept under watch!

btw you'll be pleased to know I'm an Irish born white person.

That's the second post i've seen from you in as many minutes that proves that you indeed talk out of your arse.

I, as a white irishmen:rolleyes:, would be happy to have my prints kept on record.

I'll just wear gloves

who is this

RoyalMarineComm wrote: »

all non eu people having their fingerprints recoreded.
what about all ue citizens? or do they not commit crimes??

Totally right. But I don't think it should be a thing of "everyone outside Ireland" (then you'd probably have issues with the Commission)

I think EVERYONE (including Irish citizens - which I am btw) should have to. I agree without exception with the argument that if you're law-abiding then you've got nothing to fear.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

and what happens if a law is unjust?

if that's your opinion, then why bother with democracy or civil liberties. Just go with a police state and be done with it.

Mr.Micro

mr magicmarker Dont go travelling abroad with that attitude they might keep you .The naive people who want all the foreigners fingerprinted really because little old Ireland is racist and us having exported people to and lived in every country in the world .What are you all afraid of ?.

wazzoraybelle

MagicMarker wrote: »

That's the second post i've seen from you in as many minutes that proves that you indeed talk out of your arse.

I, as a white irishmen:rolleyes:, would be happy to have my prints kept on record.

I'll just wear gloves

Glad to see we differ on so many things. As for your fingerprints, I've a feeling they already have them!!

Mr.Micro

Mordeth wrote: »

and what happens if a law is unjust?

if that's your opinion, then why bother with democracy or civil liberties. Just go with a police state and be done with it.

Yeah let them .Any system of records prints ,Dna ,whatever evidence is open to abuse by other parties,corrupt officials ,government .So any database is only as good as long as it is safe and used justly and appropriately. We have seen time and time again that nothing is that safe .Good luck to the new Irish in their police state .Have it somewhere else though not in my Ireland .

Stark

MagicMarker wrote: »

What the fúck are you here for then??:rolleyes:

In many cases, to prop up our failing health system or to address other skills shortages.

MagicMarker wrote: »

And if i'm not mistaken you get your tax back when you go home.

People employed for the long haul in Ireland still have to go through the rigmarole every year.

Hobbes

daiixi wrote: »

Sure, if they fingerprint everyone who enters Ireland then they should fingerprint every Irish person too.

Don't worry they are planning that as well. Anyone age 6+

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=398324&in_page_id=1770&in_page_id=1770&expand=true

Stark

ffs.

MagicMarker

wazzoraybelle wrote: »

Glad to see we differ on so many things. As for your fingerprints, I've a feeling they already have them!!

nice edit, what a whopper!

Blowfish

wazzoraybelle wrote: »

Wouldn't it be easier and cheaper if we justy made all non eu people wear something to indicate they are not eu citizens. something small, maybe a star, yeah a star.. stars are pretty. Surely those people couldn't object, not if they've got nothing to hide.:(

Yeah, I think you really need to read up on a little thing called the strawman argument, and how utterly stupid it is. Oh and have a read of Godwins law while you are at it too...

arybvtcw0eolkf

Another thing.

Given how small our Irish population is it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to restrict the number of births non EU-Citizens can have.

The amount of school spaces being given over to the children these people is just plain crazy. I read recently now that most schools in Dublin 15 have an over 50% non Irish born attendance now, madness.

Blowfish

Mairt wrote: »

I read recently now that most schools in Dublin 15 have an over 50% non Irish born attendance now, madness.

And what exactly may I ask is wrong with that?

Terry

First step towards ghettoism.

wazzoraybelle

Blowfish wrote: »

Yeah, I think you really need to read up on a little thing called the strawman argument, and how utterly stupid it is. Oh and have a read of Godwins law while you are at it too...

eh.. Nice to see your a fan of wikipedia....such a valuable resource

Edit: Okay, maybe you haven't read this thread fully but people have been posting about detaining non eu citizens to fingerprint/ medically and criminally screen them. I'm certainly under no illusion that they are not talking about north americans and australians here but africans,asians,arabs and anyone a little 'different'. In that context my sarcasm is well warrented. So.. back off to wikipedia with you!!

Kintarō Hattori

Overheal wrote: »

+1. you know the cost of a 7 million euro system is going to fall on us hard. i dont see way all non-nationals arent going to be scanned: seems stupid considering all the east-EU trash that come over here to commit crime.

Where are you getting this from? Any hard statistics? What's the proportion of East-EU crime to say Irish, english, african criminals?

MIN2511

Mairt wrote: »

Another thing.

Given how small our Irish population is it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to restrict the number of births non EU-Citizens can have.

The amount of school spaces being given over to the children these people is just plain crazy. I read recently now that most schools in Dublin 15 have an over 50% non Irish born attendance now, madness.

Wow, where the hell did that come from? If the Aussies and the Yanks told the Irish there how many kids to have you would be ranting!!!!!!!
The "Celtic Tiger" seems to be a blessing and a curse!

Sizzler

If you want to go the US and A it happens so why not here

We're too soft sometimes.

Hobbes

Mairt wrote: »

Given how small our Irish population is it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to restrict the number of births non EU-Citizens can have.

How are you going to restrict them exactly?

The amount of school spaces being given over to the children these people is just plain crazy. I read recently now that most schools in Dublin 15 have an over 50% non Irish born attendance now, madness.

So you would prefer the children didn't have an education?

Hobbes

Terry wrote: »

Gonig by my local rag, about 35% of traffic offences are committed by foreigners.
About 20% of assaults are committed by foreigners.
About 30% of shop lifting offences are committed by foreigners.

I'll buy next weeks copy and go through the court pages and get exact figures.

I would be interested to see how many are committed by dark haired people. I suspect the amount be high. If we got them to dye thier hair or deported dark haired people then we could lower the crime rates.

The thing that annoys me with using Percentages as above that it is very easy for people to jump to the conclusion that crime statistics sync up with population. 35% of traffic offenses may only be 5% of foreigners, it may be 90%.

Mr.Micro

Hobbes wrote: »

I
The thing that annoys me with using Percentages as above that it is very easy for people to jump to the conclusion that crime statistics sync up with population. 35% of traffic offenses may only be 5% of foreigners, it may be 90%.

Any figures or stats can be manipulated to suit.

I cant believe the rants of several of the posters against foreign people .What happened to tolerance and the great catholic dogma.?I only hope that some of these posters never have to try and earn a living in another country or if they have worked abroad already they should know better .Live and let live .Get over it .foreign people are here to stay and good luck to them

Saruman

MIN2511 wrote: »

It doesn't get better than this, while i understand the need to reduce crime and fraud. I believe this is a step too far:mad:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=ireland-qqqm=ireland-qqqa=ireland-qqqid=48725-qqqx=1.asp

I get fingerprinted every time i go to the US, its no different.
Sure everyone should be fingerprinted. Would cut down on fraud. Think of how easy opening a bank account would be if i could just swipe my fingers and prove i am who i say i am.

Personal privacy is all well and good but i think people would feel safer if everyone was fingerprinted, crime would be easier to convict. Even wearing gloves does not stop your fingerprints being lifted these days.

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I cant believe the rants of several of the posters against foreign people .What happened to tolerance and the great catholic dogma.?

Tolerance and Catholic in the same sentence. umm remember learning all about the crusades? I think tolerance is a more recent phenomenon with the catholic church.

Mr.Micro

Ok then what if a country took a lurch to a soviet style regime or very right wing? All that data once given can never be taken back .Why are people so trusting ? It just makes for a more oppressive lifestyle .talk about using a sledgehammer to crack a nut .The US takes the visitors prints but it has no plans to fingerprint all its own citizens,so I believe.


Anyway fingerprinting is old hat now,its retinal scans they want and after that a barcode .IT WILL BE GATTICA SOON

DonJose

Everybody residing in Ireland should be fingerprinted, not just the foreigners. We should also be made carry an ID card like those currently used in Germany. Fingerprinting would stop a lot of benefit fraud and would solve a lot of crime where fingerprints are lifted. The only people who should fear fingerprinting are the criminals, and the Government shouldn't give a fukk about their feelings.

DonJose

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Ok then what if a country took a lurch to a soviet style regime or very right wing?

Agreed, I'd hate to be sent to Siberia for not paying my TV licence!!!

Mr.Micro

DonJose wrote: »

Everybody residing in Ireland should be fingerprinted, not just the foreigners. We should also be made carry an ID card like those currently used in Germany. Fingerprinting would stop a lot of benefit fraud and would solve a lot of crime where fingerprints are lifted. The only people who should fear fingerprinting are the criminals, and the Government shouldn't give a fukk about their feelings.

Real life does not work like that .Information is powerful and can be used for good and bad .Look back in history .Ireland is the country of the chancer ,how many IDs can a person have since there are many people in Ireland with several aliases .We must be the most non compliant nation on the planet .Lol I would love to see all the chancers getting id cards . The Government cant even collect all the taxes ,Tv licences , etc or get provisional drivers on to full driving licences or 200,000 people to get car insurance(thats 200,000 crimes already ,add all the TV licence defaulters and tax dodgers etc etc we are on a roll) .

Stark

Saruman wrote: »

I get fingerprinted every time i go to the US, its no different.

The US is a hole in quite a lot of respects. We shouldn't be trying to blindly emulate it.

Kintarō Hattori

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I cant believe the rants of several of the posters against foreign people .What happened to tolerance and the great catholic dogma.?I only hope that some of these posters never have to try and earn a living in another country or if they have worked abroad already they should know better .Live and let live .Get over it .foreign people are here to stay and good luck to them

Wlasnie!