The Irish National team - how do you see it

Bounty Hunter

the WC draw thread has shown that Irish fans here on boards.ie seem to have very differing opinion on the Irish national side. As I said in that thread I think Irish fans are divided into 2 groups at the moment.

group a) those who have watched Ireland play rubbish over the past few years and simply think we are rubbish and have no chance

and

group b) those who have seen Ireland play rubbish over the past few years but believe the players at our disposal are capable of far better and probably getting a playoff spot in this group

which are you?
__________________

DSB

b) definitely. We're not worldbeaters but we're of the same ability as some of the countries who have been galvanised by good managers and gotten far as a result.

Daysha

B. We are a good team held back by lacklustre managers and a very poor FAI. With the right manager I would be confident of 2nd.

Seaneh

If we get rid of people like tarzan and bring people like Whelan, McCarty and Rowlands and play to the sterenghts of our players we have every chance to finish second.

Our Team should look like this

Given

Finnan O'Shea Dunne Kelly

McGeady A. Reid S. Reid Duff

Keane K. Doyle

Squad:
Randoplh(GK)
C. Doyle (GK)
McShane
Potter
Whelan
McCharty
O'Brien
Hunt
Rowlands
Long
Carsley
Harte
Ireland (if he's sorted himself out).

ecoli

look at scotland how many of there players would make an irish startin eleven we have the talent to play against the big boys but faulter with the smaller ones which obviously frustrates the public

estebancambias

B)We have good talent, and we with a good manager could play very good football, and within 2012 be second seeds. We like DSB said are the same as many teams. We are probably in the second tier along with Russia, Ukraine etc. etc.

Oh and Ireland(Steven) must play.

Bounty Hunter

should have said im a too Ireland have been horrible recentley but the players arent terrible and with a good managers are 2nd seed quality IMO

_blank_

Ireland are shíte.

Our players are dregs of the Premierleague and lower English Leagues.

The only Irish regulars playing at the Top 4 are O'Shea and Finnan. Most would agree that O'Shea isn't very good at all at international level, and yeah, Finnan is class.

The rest of the dross are playing at mid to low table EPL teams, the rest are in the championship or lower, or playing in the SPL, which is hardly an overly skillful league. (please, to all the sensitive types, it doesn't matter what club team I support, so before you all start, this is not a eL -vs- everyone rant, thanks very much, just to get that out of the way now, ok? Good.)

The sooner people realise that if an England team, which has better players, playing at better clubs in the same league as our own players, can't qualify for a tournament, then Ireland are certainly a step behind them.

There's another thread discussing the "World Class-ness" of some England players. The Irish players don't come near them in terms of skill and footballing talent.

It's quite simple really, Ireland don't have the players to expect to be qualifying for tournaments.

It's not down to management, or the FAI or me or you. It's down to the fact that the players Just. Aren't. Good. Enough.

Ireland are a shíte team.

DSB

DesF wrote: »

The sooner people realise that if an England team, which has better players, playing at better clubs in the same league as our own players, can't qualify for a tournament, then Ireland are certainly a step behind them.

It just doesn't work like that. England didn't fail to quality because they don't have better players than the other teams in their group. They didn't qualify because they didn't play as a team.

_blank_

DSB wrote: »

They didn't qualify because they didn't play as a team.

This is buying into the UK Media Hype. Excuse after excuse. Fact of the matter is England didn't qualify because there were two better teams than them in the group.

Croatia are a better team, Russia are a better team.

Players make up the team, the players aren't good enough.

Irish players play in the same league as the English players, but at a lower level.

Therefore, the Irish team will compete at a lower level than the English team.

Unearthly

DesF wrote: »

This is buying into the UK Media Hype. Excuse after excuse. Fact of the matter is England didn't qualify because there were two better teams than them in the group.

Croatia are a better team, Russia are a better team.

Players make up the team, the players aren't good enough.

Irish players play in the same league as the English players, but at a lower level.

Therefore, the Irish team will compete at a lower level than the English team.

eh..............

How does manager influence things then?

Greece have the best players in Euro 2004?

DSB

I'm buying into nothing. Its what I genuinely believe. Croatia performed out of their skins in those qualifiers. They're alot of people's dark horses for Euro 2008. I don't think they'll get out of the groups. And I reckon England will probably piss on them in these forthcoming qualifiers too. Its the same spin that comes time and time again. An Eastern European team puts a few results together and they're worldbeaters. Slovenia and Slovakia are past examples.

estebancambias

I don't think England have a better squad or players than the Germans, Spanish, Italians, but they are a hell of a lot better than Russia. Russia are an average team with a good manager.

genericgoon

There is an upper echelon of World class teams such as France, Italy, Argentina, Brazil etc. but beyond these teams there are loads of similarly skilled teams and when they happen to be coached by the right manager and come together any of these second/third tier teams can qualify for the WC. Ireland have no right to qualify but we can qualify if the team comes together.

_blank_

DSB wrote: »

Its the same spin that comes time and time again...

...just like the pin that comes from Sky/BBC/ITV/Tabs about the English Team being better than they are.

The Irish team, on the other hand, are actually worse than England, player for player.

Look at where the players play.

The English team is choc full of players playing in the Top Four of the EPL, decent teams who compete well in the CL.

The Irish team is choc full of players lucky to be playing in the UEFA Cup, or looking for a play off place in the Championship.

Ireland are shíte.

estebancambias

Desf as opposed to the Bulgarians who are all playing in the the best leagues in the world?

Two of our players play for the same team as Martin Petrov.

Our striker starts with their striker and had the same amount of talent as him back in the day.

We have a left winger who can be excellent.

Daysha

DesF wrote: »

The rest of the dross are playing at mid to low table EPL teams, the rest are in the championship or lower, or playing in the SPL, which is hardly an overly skillful league. (please, to all the sensitive types, it doesn't matter what club team I support, so before you all start, this is not a eL -vs- everyone rant, thanks very much, just to get that out of the way now, ok? Good.)

Ok lets use that excuse as your argument now

Levski Sofia
CSKA Sofia
Kayserispor
Leicester City
Energie Cottbus
Celta de Vigo
Hannover 96
Amkar Perm
MSV Duisburg
Aston Villa
Tottenham Hotspur
Manchester City
Slavia Sofia
Litex Lovech
Amkar Perm

Those vastly below average clubs are the clubs that the Bulgarian national football team play for.

Does that mean Bulgaria are "shíte" too?

Unearthly

DesF wrote: »

...just like the pin that comes from Sky/BBC/ITV/Tabs about the English Team being better than they are.

The Irish team, on the other hand, are actually worse than England, player for player.

Look at where the players play.

The English team is choc full of players playing in the Top Four of the EPL, decent teams who compete well in the CL.

The Irish team is choc full of players lucky to be playing in the UEFA Cup, or looking for a play off place in the Championship.

Ireland are shíte.

and look at where most of the Russian football players play their football. Inferior league than the premiership and perform worse in the CL, yet by your theory they are a better team than England.

Same applys to Croatia

_blank_

Who is talking bout Bulgaria?

Is this thread not about the Irish team?

I was using the England to compare because the Irish players play in the same League as their players, but at a lower level. And if England can't qualify, then it's delusional to think we can.

Yeah, fair enough, our players are probably at the same level as the Bulgarians, but in all honesty, we probably know about four or five of the Bulgarian players. so no-one can really make any claims about them.

Unearthly

DesF wrote: »

Who is talking bout Bulgaria?

Is this thread not about the Irish team?

I was using the England to compare because the Irish players play in the same League as their players, but at a lower level. And if England can't qualify, then it's delusional to think we can.

Yeah, fair enough, our players are probably at the same level as the Bulgarians, but in all honesty, we probably know about four or five of the Bulgarian players. so no-one can really make any claims about them.

The point i'm and many others are trying to make out is that England vastly underachieved. They selected a wrong manager and got rid, likewise us.

Russia have an excellent manager, likewise Croatia so took advantage of England.

If(and a big if) we get a good manager, then I think we could be a bloody hard team to beat and have a chance of securing 2nd.

estebancambias

But Croatia got a good manager by chance(just as if Stan had turned out to be a genius)..McClaren actually had a past history.

Daysha

DesF wrote: »

I was using the England to compare because the Irish players play in the same League as their players, but at a lower level. And if England can't qualify, then it's delusional to think we can.

Since you are so sure we wont qualify and since it will probably come down to us and them, I felt it was important to point that out.

Unearthly

estebancambias wrote: »

But Croatia got a good manager by chance(just as if Stan had turned out to be a genius)..McClaren actually had a past history.

What's your point? Bilic > McClaren

PHB

I remain hopeful. I think it all depends on our manager to be honest.

estebancambias

I'm on your side here..I'm just saying that perhaps it proves that management is not so much about what you actually physically do, but just the general vibe the manager gives.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

cregser

DesF wrote: »

Look at where the players play.

The English team is choc full of players playing in the Top Four of the EPL, decent teams who compete well in the CL.

The Irish team is choc full of players lucky to be playing in the UEFA Cup, or looking for a play off place in the Championship.

Ireland are shíte.

DesF, I'll add to the dissenting posts about your ranting.

Look at the Croatia squad and the clubs they play for.
Look at the England squad and the clubs they play for.
Think of the Euro2004 Greek squad and the clubs they played for.

Your team comparisons are flawed. Football is about skill, ability, injuries, tactics, moral, money, organisation, luck, timing... so so many factors.

Erin Go Brath

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

the WC draw thread has shown that Irish fans here on boards.ie seem to have very differing opinion on the Irish national side. As I said in that thread I think Irish fans are divided into 2 groups at the moment.

group a) those who have watched Ireland play rubbish over the past few years and simply think we are rubbish and have no chance

and

group b) those who have seen Ireland play rubbish over the past few years but believe the players at our disposal are capable of far better and probably getting a playoff spot in this group

which are you?
__________________

I'm not sure whether to pick a) or b) tbh. We are pretty rubbish in all fairness, we were a hairs breadth away from finishing 6th in that group. Not much seperated 3rd from 6th. We'd get some impossible group if that was the case.

I think a lot of people are going by the premise that we'll do better with a new manager. These people have a case of sorts. The big question is how much did Stuanton f*ck us up, and how much of a difference will a new manager make?
The players at our disposal outdoubtedly can do better. Is that better enough to put us in 2nd place in this group though?

estebancambias

Yes because we have better players playing at a higher level than every other team in the group bar Italy.

PHB

Dropping that goal to Slovakia in the last minute imo is all about the manager. I don't think that sort of thing would happen in a properly organised and motivated team.

shane86

One problem is that we rely too heavily on certain players, and when they are injured, we just dont have the reserve. Im talking Finnan and Given primarily here. Up front, I hope the new manager has the balls to drop Robbie, he did his stuff back in the day but he is outclassed by Hunt and Doyle. Give him a years break at least. Hunt and Doyle play for a lesser prem team because that lesser prem team saw a bargain faster than United/Liverpool/whoever. As for Given Im mystified as to why he has stayed with Newcastle, any top 4 team would be blessed to have him.

re the point about who our lads play for in the Prem, check the regular squad part here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_national_football_team#European_Championship_record

The Scots arent exactly running amok in Serie A, in fact on paper player for player we are better, but look how they performed.

DSB

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

we were a hairs breadth away from finishing 6th in that group

O RLY? Thats why we finished 3 points ahead of 6th place despite not winning any of our last 5 games. This was never really a danger in the minds of anyone but the most sensationalist. We finished the campaign about as bad as we could have, and still didn't finish there.

estebancambias

Agreed Shane..Keane needs to be dropped to facilitate a new formation.

Mental Mickey

estebancambias wrote: »

Agreed Shane..Keane needs to be dropped to facilitate a new formation.

Did you seen Keane for Spurs today?? Running around with his arms in the air shouting "Ah ref, ah ref".

Nothing's changed there then!?

He should not be captain of the Ireland team.

estebancambias

Yeah at half time he was going insane..all the flem coming out of his mouth...LOL.

Erin Go Brath

DSB wrote: »

O RLY? Thats why we finished 3 points ahead of 6th place despite not winning any of our last 5 games. This was never really a danger in the minds of anyone but the most sensationalist. We finished the campaign about as bad as we could have, and still didn't finish there.

What has not winning any of our last 5 games got to do with it. Do you get bonus points for winning games early in the campaign or something? If we finished 3 points lower we'd be in 6th place, we'd need 10 or 11 points more to finish second. Make no mistake we were ****e, and no amount of revisionism can cover that up!

DSB

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

What has not winning any of our last 5 games got to do with it.

It means there was never really a point where we were actually that close to 6th place. We got progressively closer as we went on. But never really came all that close. Its just typical Irish sensationalism. We're worse for negative sensationalism than the English are for positive.

pd101

- if we could field our best 11 every time

A) - if we have to use the rest of the squad, which is the more realistic situation

JPA

We are ****e at the moment but the manager is the most important part of any team. Look at Northern Ireland as an example. They have only a few Premiership players with the rest from the Championship and even League 1.
You just cannot underestimate the effect of the manager.
Any international team who can field a side of players who all play in one of the top divisions in the world should be able to give a good account of themselves.
We were a complete shambles under Staunton and his detrimental effect cannot be understated.