Meeting at Abbeyleix.

Sparks

Bellerophon wrote: »

If you go back to the original Greek Sparks, you will see that the word used for the thing that stung Pegasus was "insect" so who knows?

Anyone who's ever seen a horsefly generally.

Have you ever seen such a venemous campaign before Sparks

I've gotten two or three threats of libel action (sometimes on things which, humourously, are specifically exempt from libel law) myself, as well as a lot of rather... negative portrayal, so frankly, yes, I've had a duck's eye view of the shotgun blast. I find citing the facts is sufficient defence for anyone whose opinion I would care about.

are your owns personal views on this matter getting in the way of your judgement?

I'm striving to ensure that my views on the matter are independent from my views of what constitutes proof. And if I slip, there are three others watching as well. And others further up the chain watching all of us too. So I think we're okay...

Rovi wrote: »

What calibre for Chimeras, and is there an open season?

Solid block of lead, the bigger the better, and it's open season all year round. Avoid the fire-breathing end if possible.

Sikamick

Bellerophon wrote: »

Very good Sparks, nice to see a bit of erudition. It was hubris resulting from killing the chimera that led to the bee sting and , as the chimera is still alive, there is not yet cause for any hubris. How about using that erudition along with good judgement to keep boards from being a platform for spiteful malcontents?

Read it again Bellerophon

Iobates was impressed by Bellerophon's superhuman courage and married him to his daughter. After a time of prosperity, Bellerophon defied the gods by trying to ride Pegasus up to Olympus, but, thrown to the earth by the horse, he wandered in misery until he died.

Sikamick

Bellerophon

A little wiki goes a long way! I would have thought you would concentrate more on the chimera than on pegasus.

Kryten

Probably a seperate forum for Greek Mythology, Please stay on topic.

les45

I gather that there was a presentation on Insurances and a possible new insurance option for next year , perhaps someone that was at the meeting might enlighten us on this topic ! also I gather a very interesting calander of events are planned for next year , any info on this ?

John

Croppy Boy

Go to www.nasrc.ie/index.htm you'll find the calender there.

MortgageMan

Well done Croppy & Les back to the original thread about the meeting and the events covered for shooting sports. The children who just like to wind each other up and play he said I said, should open another thread and thrill each other with their fantastic word play and knowledge of greek myth's. :rolleyes:

I enjoy some the threads here that actually cover my sport and offer some advice and help, long may they continue.

Repeating Henry

The Ballad of Abbeyleix. (Jonny Cash Medley)

Abbeyleix manor hotel I hate every bit of you.

You hurt me.... hurt me... through and through
After all.... the struggle and the toil... with pain
A good man.. he needs... time... to work it out
But in the end.... its up... to you
I crossed the line... I crossed the line.

Abbeyleix manor hotel I hate every bit of you
you hurt me... hurt me through and through

The man in black... he comes calling into town
his men are standing..... stright true... and tall
he lays his cards down on the table... for... inspect..ion
And says
You will burn baby burn.... your ass is on fire..er
You will burn baby burn.....your in the ring of fire

Abbeyleix manor hotel I hate every bit of you
you hurt me.....hurt me through and through

Now the NRA.......are .... in a... hurry game
by the time.. this..... letter.... will arraive
I know... I must... have.. done.. some wrong
and now...... the time.... for me.. has come

I will burn baby burn......my ass is on fire.er
I will burn baby burn......your in the ring of fire.

Abbeyleix manor hotel I hate every bit of you
You hurt me... hurt me through and through

The chairman of the.. NASRC... he found me guilty
My friends.......they just dont want to know
Kerry's gold.. turned out to be..... fools gold... only
his vote...... to be chairman..... could not save the day
He tried..... to get me... in the .....back door.
he slipped...... and broke... the... bloody.. key
I did not turn up... because....I did not want to look... silly
Even if they invited.. me.... many times... before.
I now must find... a cover..er story.... smoke and daggers... the only way

It's battle ground..... to be fought... out.. on.... boards
Bellerophon against all ..... his... en..emies thats the way it is
Sika Mick and Sparks.....used to be my friends....a.very.. long time ago
Now... this battle...has .....no... end

And its burn baby burn......my ass is on fire.er ( pure mule that is)
And its burn baby burn......your in the ring of fire
And its burn baby burn......my ass is getting hotter
And its burn baby burn......till the end of time
Repeat...

(SLOWLY ) ABBEYLEIX HOTEL.....I HATE...............EVERY BIT OF YOU!

Bellerophon

It was Sparks who started the Classic digression by demonstrating his erudition.This was a good thing. A little culture is especially good for those readers of this board who are only interested in rabbit's guts or bragging about the size of their barrell or it's calibre.
I suspect that Mortgage man has not realised that what is at the heart of this thread is the entire future direction of the shooting sports in Ireland.The disgracefull performance by some individuals at the NASRC Agm is only a symptom of a much deeper malaise. The fact that the organisers, i.e. the committee of the NASRC not only allowed it to happen but also seemed to have been involved before hand with the "research". It is no co-incidence that there is a big overlap between the NASRC and SSAI committees and that the latter is looking for ways to cover up the gaffe they made when they decided to do away with FLAG. It looks like the cosy cartel at the top of rifle shooting have been in power for too long and it has gone to their heads. Perhaps it is time for change of management. To get back to the hubris and the bee sting, it looks like a sting is needed to get them off their high horse.

Sparks

I think you can relax a little Bellerophon. The future of shooting sports in Ireland - and I've learnt this the hard way, through a lot of fretting over this exact subject over the past decade or more - is not dependant on the administration of shooting. The SSAI is largely irrelevant to the "rank-and-file" shooting in Ireland. Either shooters will shoot or they won't, and that's the primary decider of the fate of the shooting sports in this country.

Next down the list in order of importance are the cracked hoors who put enormous amounts of time and money and effort into running matches and ranges and clubs. Things like legislation and grants and so forth do have some influence on these things, but to be honest, not that much. NGBs are further down the list again, and umbrella groups like the NRPAI/SSAI are _way_ down the list again after that.

So rows like this don't actually damage things very much, except when they take time away from shooters and organisers, because you can only do so many things, and if you put all your time into running matches and maintaining national rankings and classification lists and shooting, you get a healthy sport; if you put all your effort and time into court cases and the like, you generally get squat as a result unless you're in dire straits indeed - and frankly, we've never been in dire straits as a result of legislation up until the CJA 2006 amended the firearms acts and directly made work for organisers and upped the costs to shooters.

As to the "cosy cartel at the top", I know most of the people involved here, and the specifics of the arguments; and frankly, saying they've been in power too long is a bit funny because only a while back, the argument was that they didn't have enough experience to do the job

The facts are that there's been a lot of bad blood building up over the past decade or so against some people in the admin side of the sport because of the things they chose to do and how they chose to do them and it's looking like some of that is now being bled out on the carpet. Well, much as my personal history is tied up in this, I say don't make a meal of it - get it over and done with as fast as is practical and get back to shooting and organising.

NGBs spending time lobbying for sports capital grants and carding grants and maintaining national rankings and organising the national teams for international events and hosting international events and running domestic events; that's good. Umbrella bodies having arguments about who gets to sit at a table that's largely looking like a talking shop; that's just irrelevant to be honest, no matter how much schadenfreude is involved.

Bellerophon

Sparks wrote: »

I say don't make a meal of it - get it over and done with as fast as is practical and get back to shooting and organising.

You are right is what you say Sparks, the politics of the sport mainly exist as a nuisance for most shooters which is why most of them are not bothered about who sits on which committee or what they do as long as it does not affect the shooting. This is OK for a while, which usually results in no one going forward for positions on committees and the sitting crowd being returned by default. This is also OK for a while. But, gradually, as we have seen, the favours and the funding seem to go in the direction of the clubs or disciplines represented by these individuals who eventually become disconnected from the will of the great mass of shooters and hence lose the run of themselves. This is what has happened to the NASRC/SSAI.
I take it then that you will support the putsch?

Kryten

If the committee of the NASRC were voted back in at the meeting by a majority, hey thats democracy in action. I heard there were quite a few people there, lot of voters.
Secondly, I remember a previous NASRC Meeting where they were looking for people to step forward to go on the committee. "crowd takes a step back and the unwary few caught to do the job".
Thirdly, It is very easy to critisize the existing committee and slate them for their mistakes, but more difficult to offer some constructive solutions and help them.
I am not saying that they are perfect or fantastic and I dont agree with some recent decisions, but I firmly believe they want to better the sport.

Sparks

Bellerophon, I'm currently bemused by the arguments I'm hearing against the SSAI - because they're being expounded by the same people who poo-poo'd those same arguements when I put them forward as protests at the way the NRPAI was mangled into the SSAI at an AGM a few years ago. It would seem to me personally that it's like watching someone get hit in the head by the boomerang that they themselves threw, and then watching them complain that the boomerang wasn't meant to do that...

Gerri

Sparks wrote: »

I think you can relax a little Bellerophon. The future of shooting sports in Ireland - and I've learnt this the hard way, through a lot of fretting over this exact subject over the past decade or more - is not dependant on the administration of shooting. The SSAI is largely irrelevant to the "rank-and-file" shooting in Ireland. Either shooters will shoot or they won't, and that's the primary decider of the fate of the shooting sports in this country.

Next down the list in order of importance are the cracked hoors who put enormous amounts of time and money and effort into running matches and ranges and clubs. Things like legislation and grants and so forth do have some influence on these things, but to be honest, not that much. NGBs are further down the list again, and umbrella groups like the NRPAI/SSAI are _way_ down the list again after that.

So rows like this don't actually damage things very much, except when they take time away from shooters and organisers, because you can only do so many things, and if you put all your time into running matches and maintaining national rankings and classification lists and shooting, you get a healthy sport; if you put all your effort and time into court cases and the like, you generally get squat as a result unless you're in dire straits indeed - and frankly, we've never been in dire straits as a result of legislation up until the CJA 2006 amended the firearms acts and directly made work for organisers and upped the costs to shooters.

As to the "cosy cartel at the top", I know most of the people involved here, and the specifics of the arguments; and frankly, saying they've been in power too long is a bit funny because only a while back, the argument was that they didn't have enough experience to do the job

The facts are that there's been a lot of bad blood building up over the past decade or so against some people in the admin side of the sport because of the things they chose to do and how they chose to do them and it's looking like some of that is now being bled out on the carpet. Well, much as my personal history is tied up in this, I say don't make a meal of it - get it over and done with as fast as is practical and get back to shooting and organising.

NGBs spending time lobbying for sports capital grants and carding grants and maintaining national rankings and organising the national teams for international events and hosting international events and running domestic events; that's good. Umbrella bodies having arguments about who gets to sit at a table that's largely looking like a talking shop; that's just irrelevant to be honest, no matter how much schadenfreude is involved.

Thought the meeting in Abbeyleix and the issues was about a bit more than who sits at a table, unless my sources are wrong. Was there some difficulty with clubs not being paid up members but being allowed vote for the committee?

Bellerophon

You are making my points for me, thankyou Kryten, Of course they want to improve the sport but the problem is how they perceive the improvements should be made. Sparks, I agree with you. Having watched some of the debate over the last year or two I would say that you were right but for the wrong reasons. Perhaps if you had been less personal and less strident about it, you may have got more support. But, come on now, declare for the putsch and you could be the new PRO.

Bellerophon

Gerri wrote: »

Thought the meeting in Abbeyleix and the issues was about a bit more than who sits at a table, unless my sources are wrong. Was there some difficulty with clubs not being paid up members but being allowed vote for the committee?

There were fundamental issues of non compliance with the NASRC constitution raised but they were not listened to by the committee. In fact, the entire AGM was not in compliance with the constitution as proper notice was not given.

Sparks

Gerri wrote: »

Thought the meeting in Abbeyleix and the issues was about a bit more than who sits at a table, unless my sources are wrong. Was there some difficulty with clubs not being paid up members but being allowed vote for the committee?

I'd not heard of the latter; but I don't think I would have had it not been for the former. And frankly, the latter sounds far less worrysome than the abuse of voting rights that was orchestrated at the NRPAI-to-SSAI AGM in '04.

Frankly, I think that this whole mess - and the fifty other messes we see each year - shows that we're a lot closer to the FAI than to the GAA in terms of organisation at the moment. Too many ould fellas who prefer getting into a scrap at the committee table (and away from it, in the pub and in quiet conversations elsewhere) than actually shooting.

That said, I saw up close and personal what it was like ten years ago and I have to say we've made progress in that time. It's been a lot like pulling teeth from the wrong end of the alimentary canal, but it's been progress nonetheless.

Me, however, I'd rather be on the range.

Sparks

Bellerophon wrote: »

Sparks, I agree with you. Having watched some of the debate over the last year or two I would say that you were right but for the wrong reasons. Perhaps if you had been less personal and less strident about it, you may have got more support.

If the support was not forthcoming purely for personal reasons Bellerophon, then those not giving it were not worth seeking support from in the first place. Either shooting comes first or your ego comes first when you're on a committee, and if it's the latter, the former will suffer.

But, come on now, declare for the putsch and you could be the new PRO.

Why? I've no interest in gallery rifle or the other NASRC disciplines, but from what I hear, they're more than healthy enough and there aren't any real problems in the sport, just in the personalities on all sides of the divides.

Sparks

Bellerophon wrote: »

There were fundamental issues of non compliance with the NASRC constitution raised but they were not listened to by the committee. In fact, the entire AGM was not in compliance with the constitution as proper notice was not given.

So when are you calling for the SSAI to be denounced as a fraudulently constituted body and the NRPAI reinstated?

Guillotine

Thought the meeting in Abbeyleix and the issues was about a bit more than who sits at a table, unless my sources are wrong. Was there some difficulty with clubs not being paid up members but being allowed vote for the committee?


NOTE THE UNPAID UP MEMBERS WERE DK SUPPORTERS. IF YOU HAD ATTENDED THE MEETING YOU COULD HAVE HAD A VOTE AS WELL.

Bellerophon

Sparks wrote: »

So when are you calling for the SSAI to be denounced as a fraudulently constituted body and the NRPAI reinstated?

You clearly do not know where I am coming from in this argument so let me confuse you further by stating that I agree with your statements and would like a clean sweep to set it all right. The PRO job remains open by the way. The mellowing you have shown recentely removes the only obstacle to you getting the job.

Sparks

Bellerophon wrote: »

The mellowing you have shown recentely removes the only obstacle to you getting the job.

Yeah, it's old age setting in. Means it's time for me to step away from the helm and pass it on the way DURC committees have to do every year. Means fresh blood, new ideas, and people who've not spent the past fifteen years getting that rut well and truly worn in. Pity more people didn't think that way...

Guillotine

sidneyreilly wrote: »

And it wouldnt be first time or indeed will it be the last:D




I would be careful of posting that one Henry.

KERRY YOU SEEM TO LIKE MAKING STATEMENTS ON BOARDS WHERE YOU CAN HIDE YOUR ID.

KERRY I NOTICED THAT YOU DID NOT SAY ANYTHING TO DEFEND DK AT THE AGM OR ANYTHING AT ALL.

Kryten

Bellerophon wrote: »

You are making my points for me, thankyou Kryten, Of course they want to improve the sport but the problem is how they perceive the improvements should be made.

True, but would you be prepared to be part of the solution by stepping up and presenting some good ideas on what improvements can be made and how to implement them?

On Safety courses, Because someone is or isnt qualified with the NRA as an instructor really makes no difference at present. There is no legal requirement at the moment for firearm safety courses (should be of course) and no recognised course of study or certification has yet been agreed.

True, unpaid up members should not be voting, but they should'nt have been invited either if they were no longer affiliated, i.e not paid up. A matter for further investigation.

I have seen the proposed shooting calender for 2008, and I am very impressed. This is the basis of what the organisation is about, Shooting.
We can stick our heads in the sand and worry ourselves sick over what will come from the FCP and the choice of representitive and all the politics, or we can just go into business as normal mode and get shooting.

Thats what I am in the Sport for.

Rovi

Guillotine wrote: »

KERRY YOU SEEM TO LIKE MAKING STATEMENTS ON BOARDS WHERE YOU CAN HIDE YOUR ID.

KERRY I NOTICED THAT YOU DID NOT SAY ANYTHING TO DEFEND DK AT THE AGM OR ANYTHING AT ALL.

Please read the Charter, particularly the points about 'personal abuse' and 'using all CAPITAL LETTERS'.

Bellerophon

After the putsch Kryten, of course I will stand for the committee. There is no point in removing the current lot unless replacements are available.. I agree the calendar looks good. No fault to be found there but there is no point having a nice calendar if we do not have the means to compete and it is in this area that the current NASRC/SSAI/NRPAI committee are most found wanting.
So far we have 2 members of the new committee in place, Sparks and myself(assuming we get elected of course!)
You seem like a sensible chap Kryten, want to volunteer?
In fact, I rather like Rovi's combination of wisdom and experience so I think he would make a fine addition and Civdef if we can tempt him out of retirement.

Sparks

Bellerophon wrote: »

After the putsch Kryten, of course I will stand for the committee.

But you won't work with them now, even though their output is good, because you dislike their personalities? Doesn't sound to me like you'd be of much use on a committee Bellerophon.

So far we have 2 members of the new committee in place, Sparks and myself(assuming we get elected of course!)

Yeah, that'd be one member actually...

Bellerophon

Sparks wrote: »

But you won't work with them now, even though their output is good, because you dislike their personalities? Doesn't sound to me like you'd be of much use on a committee Bellerophon.

Are you referring to your own personal experience?
I thought you understood what was happening, especially with your experience of committees and how they work. I have no problem with the people, just with how in touch they are with the views of the shooting community.As you stated earlier, about the DURC committees changing every year, there can be good reasons for change which do not involve personalities. Come on now Sparks, please do not be the reluctant suitor, the shooting community at large(who you so often represent) need you in reality, not just on the boards.

Bellerophon

Maybe we should take a leaf out of the NASRC's book about how to elect a committee? We have a number of nominations, using their board's handle, for members of the new NASRC/SSAI/NRPAI committees. I would like to invite other nominations for the new committee and then we we hold an election(poll) here on this board to see who will take over from the current people. It does not matter whether the voters are members of any association or not, following the precedent set last Sunday.We can have a pseudo committee elected, at the pseudo AGM, which I herebye give notice of, is to be held on this board on the night of December 4th 2008 at 8:00pm. (Again following the precedent set last Sunday regarding notice of AGMs).They can then be elected in reality and take over from the current clique. Please post your nominations with a one sentence reason for why they would be good and I will organise the poll

Sparks

Bellerophon wrote: »

Are you referring to your own personal experience?

Yes, I've seen people behaving that way on committees in the past. They've since found themselves not sought to sit on committees, because they're as useful as chocolate coated frying pans.

I thought you understood what was happening

I do, more so than I care to say here because here I have to remain more circumspect than I might personally find pleasant.

I have no problem with the people, just with how in touch they are with the views of the shooting community.

I could equally say that about the "other side" in this.

Come on now Sparks, please do not be the reluctant suitor, the shooting community at large(who you so often represent) need you in reality, not just on the boards.

In the words of some friends of mine, would you ever away and defecate!