Natural Horsemanship

Coonagh Cowboy

<snip>Split from the thread on catching a horse, lets have a bit less of the bickering, this is an interesting topic and while everyone may not agree with it, it is a factor in equestrian matters</snip>

There could possibly be various factors as to why the horse won't allow you to catch him.Such as your approach to him,does it seem threatening to him?How long have you had him?And has he always been like that?I'm sorry for the questions but your post was a bit vague.But when you go to approach him are your shoulders squared with him and you look in his eyes?Most horses who dont have a strong bond with their owners percieve that as a threatening pose.To avoid that is to approach him with your shoulder pointed at him and your eyes averted downwards,which would project a harmless image.But like I mentioned could be one of many reasons as to his behaviour.So if you will,post a bit more details.

togster

Coonagh Cowboy wrote: »

There could possibly be various factors as to why the horse won't allow you to catch him.Such as your approach to him,does it seem threatening to him?How long have you had him?And has he always been like that?I'm sorry for the questions but your post was a bit vague.But when you go to approach him are your shoulders squared with him and you look in his eyes?Most horses who dont have a strong bond with their owners percieve that as a threatening pose.To avoid that is to approach him with your shoulder pointed at him and your eyes averted downwards,which would project a harmless image.But like I mentioned could be one of many reasons as to his behaviour.So if you will,post a bit more details.

Sorry but this post is a bit monty roberts tbh. Have you actually ever tried to catch a horse using this technique.? It doesn't work. Most horses don't want to be caught because they prefer the field. OP you can try this if you want but im afraid it won't work. In my experience, some harsh weather and a rumbling tummy will get a horse in. walking with you eyes closed doesn't help (in my experience)

fits

togster wrote: »

Sorry but this post is a bit monty roberts tbh. Have you actually ever tried to catch a horse using this technique.? It doesn't work.

If the OP is approaching the horse the wrong way, this most certainly is good advice. My OH isnt very good with horses and would approach them straight on, looking straight at them, and the horse tends to back away. I think body language is very important. (This can be seen with people trying to load horses into a horsebox and facing the horse... all wrong).

Anyway, in my experience, horses normally dont want to be caught, because it is associated with something unpleasant such as work, or being kept in a stable overnight (most horses prefer the field).

To remedy this, I'd make sure that the horse associates being caught with something nice. I'd stop work altogether for a couple of weeks, and just concentrate on this issue, as its bloody annoying. Leave the horse out and just bring him in to feed, turning straight back out after (assuming he can live out). I'd be aiming to catch the horse at least every day. Soon the horse will learn that catching means tasty food and not nasty work or stable.

togster

zaraba wrote: »

How you approach the horse does have a major impact.

Yes of course it does in extreme cases like you outlined in your post. People sometimes make too big a deal out of it. Shoulders, eyes, angle of approach. Its just ridiculous. I would say approach so he horse can see you and calmly attempt to catch him.

fits

finbarrk wrote: »

I hunted him yesterday and I would like to throw him out in a grassy paddock today but it will be the same story again this evening when I go to try and catch him.

Well I wouldnt really call approaching a horse properly as 'the Monty Roberts thing'.

I have a book called 'Perfect Manners' by Kelly Marks at home and there is a chapter in it about working with a difficult to catch horse. I'll read up on it again (cant remember what it said).

I like to take bits from these books, they can be really useful, and get me to think in a different way about certain problems.

I still chuckle when I loaded unassisted a 'difficult' racehorse in two minutes in front of two very experienced horsemen.... To say their jaws hit the floor would be an understatement. I just read up on NH techniques, and they worked very well in this instance with this horse.

fits

togster wrote: »

No amount of horse whispering will help this problem,

And you know this because....

togster

fits wrote: »

And you know this because....

experience:rolleyes:

fits

togster wrote: »

experience:rolleyes:

Not a very good answer. I'm sorry but I have yet to read anything written by you that indicates any knowledge, nevermind experience of natural horsemanship.

I am by no means an avid follower of it, but a lot of it really is just common sense and a new way of looking at traditional problems.

Bendihorse

fits wrote: »

And you know this because....

Im not taking sides but i don't think that that is the sort of line a usually taken by a mod on a forum, Togster has given his opinion (which can admitidly be strong from time to time) but hes entitled to it, its up to the OP to decide what advice he sees as benificial and worthy of taking.

I hate to see this starting already in a new forum

fits

Bendihorse wrote: »

Im not taking sides but i don't think that that is the sort of line a usually taken by a mod on a forum, Togster has given his opinion (which can admitidly be strong from time to time) but hes entitled to it, its up to the OP to decide what advice he sees as benificial and worthy of taking.

Of course he is entitled to his opinion. I'm just asking for him to back it up. I dont see where I'm 'taking a line'.
All in the spirit of discussion m'dear.

Bendihorse

Discussion is great Fitz Im just wary of things in here going the way they go in so many other forums on boards and that would be a great shame! Iv been waiting for ages to find an irish based horsie forum on the web and i find that there are plenty of well informed people on here with varying but valuable opinions on how things can/should be done... Sorry for jumping in and pulling things OT

Back OT, sounds like you have a crafty horse here that wont be tricked easily... one of the ONLY things you can try and do with him is try to get him thinking in a way that he sees a benefit for himself in being catched

togster

fits wrote: »

Not a very good answer. I'm sorry but I have yet to read anything written by you that indicates any knowledge, nevermind experience of natural horsemanship.

I am by no means an avid follower of it, but a lot of it really is just common sense and a new way of looking at traditional problems.

I dont feel i have to explain my opinion to you tbh. What is natural horsemanship? I think it means growing up with horses, understanding how they think and adopting your interraction with them to suit the environment. I haven't read about it in books i have lived it. I don't think you should have jumped in there. i was offering my opinion to the OP (mine). You don't have to agree. why don't you post up something then instead of trying to provoke an argument.

fits

togster wrote: »

I dont feel i have to explain my opinion to you tbh. ....... I don't think you should have jumped in there. i was offering my opinion to the OP (mine). You don't have to agree. why don't you post up something then instead of trying to provoke an argument.

Look you made a statement, I asked you to back it up... I'm curious as to why you hold such a strong opinion. You dont have to back it up if you dont want to, but if you really believe that so called 'horse whispering' would be useless in this instance, I'd love to be enlightened as to why.

What exactly is the problem here. Am I not allowed to disagree with you?

togster

fits wrote: »

Look you made a statement, I asked you to back it up... I'm curious as to why you hold such a strong opinion. You dont have to back it up if you dont want to, but if you really believe that so called 'horse whispering' would be useless in this instance, I'd love to be enlightened as to why.

What exactly is the problem here. Am I not allowed to disagree with you?

Of course you are. You asked me a question, i replied. You asked me how i would know that wouldn't work. I answered with experience. Granted i shouldn't have used the :rolleyes:. That was immature. You suggested i didn't know anything about natural horsemanship, which is BS tbh. I also pinted out that your books etc cannot replace years of dealing with 100's of different types of horses. I offered suggestions to the OP, re: enclosures etc and you pulled me on one thing because you and i have differences of opinions on dealing with these situations. Your entitled to your opinions too as am i. Now can we please stop the bickering?

fits

togster wrote: »

Of course you are. You asked me a question, i replied. You asked me how i would know that wouldn't work. I answered with experience. Granted i shouldn't have used the :rolleyes:. That was immature.

Look I just dont believe the word 'experience' is a justification for any opinion. I would love to hear about your experiences with natural horsemanship, and a justification for why you believe it would be ineffective. I'm not bickering with you, I'm genuinely curious.

You suggested i didn't know anything about natural horsemanship, which is BS tbh. I also pinted out that your books etc cannot replace years of dealing with 100's of different types of horses.

No I said that I did not see any evidence of knowledge about NH. Different thing.
Of course books cant replace experience... Experience is invaluable. But it doesnt mean that ideas and different methods (such as can be found in books) cant often be helpful in looking at a problem in a new light. This is what I found most useful about 'my' books. I just discovered this stuff three years ago, and I will never look at horses the same again. There is a spirit of questioning about it which I hadnt experienced as a young'un growing up with Pony Club.

you pulled me on one thing because you and i have differences of opinions on dealing with these situations.

Honestly I didnt pull you on anything, I was asking you to elaborate. This discussion is with Fits the user, not Fits the mod.

togster

Fits whether you are a regular user or mod i would have commented the same. I don't really know what you mean by NH etc. Like you pointed out it is common sense and looking at problems from a different angle. So i should phrase it differently, i have in my experience encountered many horses who are difficult to catch. NONE i have encountered have been easy to catch because you look at them differently square your shoulders lie down and act like a horse or zig-zag towards them. I agreed in an earlier post that approach does matter, like you said common sense, approach so the horse can see you and in a calm slow manner. What i meant by horse whispering is this other mumbo jumbo that is sometimes spouted by people who have seen it on a DIY dvd or read it somewhere.

fits

togster wrote: »

Fits whether you are a regular user or mod i would have commented the same. I don't really know what you mean by NH etc. Like you pointed out it is common sense and looking at problems from a different angle. So i should phrase it differently, i have in my experience encountered many horses who are difficult to catch. NONE i have encountered have been easy to catch because you look at them differently square your shoulders lie down and act like a horse or zig-zag towards them. I agreed in an earlier post that approach does matter, like you said common sense, approach so the horse can see you and in a calm slow manner. What i meant by horse whispering is this other mumbo jumbo that is sometimes spouted by people who have seen it on a DIY dvd or read it somewhere.

Well horse whispering is a term which usually refers to the methods of horsemanship pioneered by Monty Roberts which is now known as Natural Horsemanship. In this case, i.e. a difficult to catch horse, someone following Monty Roberts' methods would advocate a method known as join-up, which is usually performed in a round pen, where the horse is out of sight and earshot of any major distractions. It involves the person getting into the round pen and 'driving' the horse around, turning the horse and inviting the horse in using body language. This is the method Roberts used to catch and tame wild horses.

Now, I feel a bit funny for some reason about join-up, and its not something I have ever attempted, but I have used a lot of the principles of natural horsemanship. I think the whole idea of pressure and release (which is the core of the philosophy) is an excellent one. I used it on a difficult to bridle horse, to get him to lower his head. It involved placing pressure on his poll and 'releasing' that pressure once he moved his head downwards. The horse learns to yield to the pressure and becomes very easy to bridle.

Other proponents of NH include Pat Parelli (whom I dislike), Clinton Anderson, Mark Rashid and Kelly Marks. I have one of Kelly Marks' books, and would like to learn more about Clinton Anderson's methods, but since I dont ride or keep a horse at the moment, that has been put off temporarily. I dont subscribe to any one philosophy, I just find that it is a useful way of looking at things.

togster

fits wrote: »

Well horse whispering is a term which usually refers to the methods of horsemanship pioneered by Monty Roberts which is now known as Natural Horsemanship. In this case, i.e. a difficult to catch horse, someone following Monty Roberts' methods would advocate a method known as join-up, which is usually performed in a round pen, where the horse is out of sight and earshot of any major distractions. It involves the person getting into the round pen and 'driving' the horse around, turning the horse and inviting the horse in using body language. This is the method Roberts used to catch and tame wild horses.

Now, I feel a bit funny for some reason about join-up, and its not something I have ever attempted, but I have used a lot of the principles of natural horsemanship. I think the whole idea of pressure and release (which is the core of the philosophy) is an excellent one. I used it on a difficult to bridle horse, to get him to lower his head. It involved placing pressure on his poll and 'releasing' that pressure once he moved his head downwards. The horse learns to yield to the pressure and becomes very easy to bridle.

Other proponents of NH include Pat Parelli (whom I dislike), Clinton Anderson, Mark Rashid and Kelly Marks. I have one of Kelly Marks' books, and would like to learn more about Clinton Anderson's methods, but since I dont ride or keep a horse at the moment, that has been put off temporarily. I dont subscribe to any one philosophy, I just find that it is a useful way of looking at things.

Yes however all of the principles outlined by any of the aforementioned whisperers are common sense. The pressure and release method is common sense among good horsemen and horsewomen. The fact that these people have comondeered this notion as something they own and label is absurd. However i do see its advantages in relation to distribution to the masses. But i don\t like the lables i.e. NH or horsewhispering because really all it is is good horsemanship something you aqquire through experience being around more experienced people. I spent time in upstate NY USA breaking quarter bred horses and thouroughbreds in a particular way which was completely alien to me. However i adopted some things and incorporated it into my own individual brand of horsemanship. I too have watched Monty Roberts videos and have learned from them, but just because you see it in a video doesn\t make it effective in real life. I don't like the idea that yiu can break a horse in a couple of hours, something roberts splashed around at his seminars. IMO people spend way too little breaking horses. Thats another issue......

So you know what maybe i was too rash in my dismissal of @whispering in helping the OP here. Im prone to that;)

fits

doctor evil wrote: »

Fits your a mod, you cannot flit between one and the other, tis the responsibility of such a title.

I always wanted two personas...:p Darn it anyway!

Theres a lot about Roberts that makes me uncomfortable too. I have the highest respect for him for bringing a new way of thinking to the masses... but some of these gadgets he sells.... I dunno.... I think he should retire tbh.

Anyway OP, if you want to look for alternative ways to solve this problem... perhaps you could get in touch with this organisation.
www.irishnaturalhorsemanshipsociety.com They tend to have instructors who can make home visits. I've had no dealings with them personally.

TheB

Cooo.. I left work.. lunged the OrangeOne..had some stirfry..and missed all the excitement..:D

I'm not mad about some NH techniques.. some people take it too far.. and some of the stuff I've read is just "dressed up" versions of what Ye Olde Horsemen Of Yore practised anyway (IMO) .. BUT.. I value this information.. it has roots in the right place.. I think body language is very important in any aspect of handling horses..

i.e - "big" body language is useful when you're say - confronted by an over confident 2 yo who wants through that gate NOW .. now we've all done it - mostly without realising.. the squared shoulders, upright spinal stance, feet shoulder width and in extreme cases waving arms .. it's all part of the same language..using it is just a case of tuning into it..

I have also had experience of the reverse body language that you may think of as being appropriate being used to catch a canny horse.. instead of approaching passively as you would 90% of horses - this horse had to be approached with a "stern" body position.. direct eye contact.. even solid paces.. and an upright spine.. that meant "look here Missy - you are coming with me" .. Alpha Mare stylee .. worked (with her) everytime.. if you approached passively she thought she would have a little fun with you and just buggered off when you were 2ft from her.. if you got a little cross and approached in a NoMoreOfThat way.. job done.. she became passive and allowed herself to be caught.. Read the horse and you'll see how to be..

The OP with the naughty to catch horse - I'ver replied re that particular horse in your own post. .

Bx

I feel that NH has just packaged this knowledge cleverly..

togster

exactly my point, B has pointed out much more eloquantly what i was trying to say. NH and others have labelled common sense and experience as their own.

Body language and stance have alot to do with communicating with a horse. This is true. It can be both on the ground and on the horse. An intelligent horse will pick up on a persons personality and ability by first impressions and continued experience. I had a 2 star eventer who was the best reader of people i have seen. He new if you were weak and capatalised on it. He was impossible clip,inject,catch,shoe, pull his mane when i got him. Over time he developed a bond with me because of the understanding we had. It was not because of some quick fix trick i read on-line or saw on a dvd. It was an intangible link we built because of trust we develpoed in every area of his life from feeding to riding.

This example i am trying to putline one of the fundamentals of horsemanship, the ability to read a horse just like the horse reads us. Having read the horse (some people are quicker than others) you then develop a strategy to work with the horse rather than against him. Some horses need a heavy hand, eithher because they are in fact spoilt or some simply thrive on it. Others need a softer more roundabout approach. For example the 2 star loved to feel in charge riding cross country. I would do this by letting him storm out of the start gates and charge down the field. He was quick with his feet so he decided the pace. Accoeding to conventional methods this is ridiculous, but it worked for him and me. \by working with him rather than against him i got the best from him.

So after this long rambling post i wanted to try and summarise what i am saying;)

Horses are intelligent animals (most) and you need to develop a skill to help yourself achieve their potential. I do this by playing dlose attention to their body language like they do ours. This you aqquire through experience, no amount of self help books and quick fixes can give you this. I am not dismissing the idea of NH like be said it is based in the right places but to anyone intersted in horses, get out to yards meet people and their horses. Watch how they interact with their environment, watch their eyes and raers and nostrils and they way they move. Be observant like you horse:)

Coonagh Cowboy

When I orginally posted an personal opinion in the hopes of helping someone go about catching a horse than seems rather against being caught,it was based on my own experience.And it was one of many options that work for me.It's methods that I have learned from experienced owners and trainers over the years in my many years working yards in various countries.It's not based on Monty Roberts or any other one out there marketing their ideas as a indefinate cure all.Horses are like people in their own uniqueness and cannot be stereotyped,which seems to happen alot by alot of people.I work with horses on their own level,each one different as the next.And over time,the bond that develops is the main step into working with that animal in a very low stress enviroment.I have went to clinics of various natural horsemanship people,including Monty Roberts.Not so much to learn their techiques,but to further understand the mental workings of a horse for my own needs.And even they will tell you,what works on one horse,won't on another.It's all trial and error and the old saying of catching a horse is 90% mental-10% physical is true enough.My posted opinion was only to give the person another way to try for the same problem.And a horse will tell you what is working and whats not if you only watch for the signs.And that takes alot of time,which sadly some people dont want to invest,and I understand that as well.I know people make their living dealing horses and don't have alot of time to put into them.Point is,if you don't feel natural horsemanship works for you then thats fine.But it shouldn't make some people blow it off or to post comments critisisng the people it does work for.Afterall it's about the horse,not the person doing the work.

TheB

Coonagh Cowboy wrote: »

.Point is,if you don't feel natural horsemanship works for you then thats fine.But it shouldn't make some people blow it off or to post comments critisisng the people it does work for..

V good point.. as I posted I'm not mad about some of the practices in NH but thats me.. for others they work well - what I object to is people taking it all to far and the boundary lines are blurred for the horse resulting in confused horses = bad/worse behaviours.. I do use bits of NH but again I learnt a lot of these practices before they were "NH"

The reason I'm a bit put off is that I know of several people who could do with simply laying down and enforcing some simple ground rules for their horses rather than using NH (all the time) etc etc.. one naughty 4yo SecD I met was playing silly buggers with me .. a quick smack on the chest and a growl later he stood quietly.. the owner was horrified and said that when he behaved like that she usually went through the 7 Parelli games with him so he was to understand to stand still (she did this each time he messed about) she NEVER chastised him as "it would create insecurities and cause him mental and physical distress which in turn lead to yada yada yada etc etc etc" .. :rolleyes:

The face on her Farrier (who was trying to trim the horse at the time) said it all..

Afterall it's about the horse,not the person doing the work

Absolutely..

fits

TheB wrote: »

The reason I'm a bit put off is that I know of several people who could do with simply laying down and enforcing some simple ground rules for their horses rather than using NH (all the time) etc etc..

I hate Parelli..... I just really dont like their whole ethos..

Anyway, for me, I see NH as a great way to lay down simple ground rules, such as respecting personal space etc (but I'm not against giving the odd smack if deserved too). Again like most other posters, I just take bits from each of the practitioners.... (except Parelli). Some of Roberts stuff is great, but some of his gadgets *shakes head* I dunno. I'm not going to mention one in particular in case anyone thinks its a good idea to try one.

Anyway, to go back to the original question about catching, Kelly Marks would advocate 'over-joining-up' the horse. I.e. practising join-up on the horse every day until the horse is so feckin sick of being 'sent away' that as soon as it sees you come into the field it will just come to your shoulder straight away (and then you make it pleasant for the horse to be there).

If I was desperate and other methods didnt work, I'd probably try this... but a round pen would definitely help, and I'm not mad about join-up in the first place.

Siogfinsceal

I can see both sides of this. Im not a fan of parelli or any of the carrot and stick new fangled new horsemanship. I believe that true natural horsemanship comes from experience of working with horses in an understanding and cooperative manner.

I can see that the OP had a valid point. How someone approches a horse does make a difference to the likelyhod of catching many of them. When trying to catch a difficult horse my usual technique is to walk towards the shoulder looking into the distance talking softly. I do not qualify this as new horsemanship or parelli or anything of this sort at all - its basic horse sense and understanding how horses react and sense things - most BHS books would probably advocate it.

However I can also see togsters point. With some stubborn horses this just will not work especially if they are cute enough to realise that they can avoid you. A girl I teach has a pony who refuses to come in - I tried my usual technique and the pony made me look a right eejit running away with a smirk on her face - shes way to clever to fall for that. A bucket of food however does the trick.

Fits suggestion of teaching the horse that being caught does not automatically mean having to work is a good one as horses learn by association and this one may be associating being caught with something he does not like(and it may not be being ridden could be something else). Only repeated positive experiences of being caught will help this.

johnny_g

sorry if im two steps behind but what is this "join up" method you're all talking about...? .


*edit...* ..found it....* ignore me.....doh.

togster

Good to see this debate. My point is (and most posters have said this too) is that NH and others are just good horsemanship re-packaged.

Siogfinsceal

togster wrote: »

Good to see this debate. My point is (and most posters have said this too) is that NH and others are just good horsemanship re-packaged.

You know I have been saying that for a while. I have been thought over the last 15 years by a woman who has been dealing with horses for at least 40+. I have learned her ways and techniques and am always amazed to see old fashioned good horsemanship re branded. To be fair I think in the last 5/10 years there was a trend away from the old fashioned way of dealing with horses. It was the period of dutch gags on every horse, fancy bits, overuse of supplements, purple buckets and expensive boots and saddles.
The tide seems to be turning back towards the old ways of doing things - fixing the problem rather than just changing the bit, looking at what the horse is feeling not just the rider, looking at alternative ways e.g. barefoot. Id say the main reason its been rebranded as broad spectrum 'new horsemanship' is that many people do not realise its been around before. In fact most of what is branded is not what I would call NH at all. I read Monty Roberts book years ago and found parts of it interesting esp that he didnt disagree with wearing tack he seemed to focus on how the horse feels. Now read any BHS book and its kind of the same principle there are large sections on the phsyche of the horse.

NH to me would apply to the likes of Parelli where they are trying to get people away from riding with tack. I have heard some bizarre things like 'instead of using your leg to make the horse move you 'up the energy' and wave your savvy string'!?:eek:. No disrespect to those that do follow it but thats really not something I am interested in doing. I see no problem riding a horse in a snaffle bridle and a saddle as they have been doing for hundreds of years. After all riding is riding using a piece of string and a carrot stick instead of a bridle makes no difference either way you are trying to get a horse to do what you want the meduim is just different.

I ride and I teach. I would not class my methods as NH, more as 'old fashioned irish logic' - using words puils will understand rather than fancy ones, teaching the rider to ride their particular horse rather than teaching to an ideal, trying to get the best from each partnership and using simple methods that have been around for years.

togster

Siogfinsceal wrote: »

teaching the rider to ride their particular horse rather than teaching to an ideal, trying to get the best from each partnership and using simple methods that have been around for years.

Yeah good point. Too many people try and make the horse go in their way of riding as opposed to adopting your style to achieve the horses full potential.

Siogfinsceal

Yup. Its what I call teaching the rider to ride the ideal way on an ideal horse. Where realistically the rider wont have an ideal horse and needs to learn how to get the best out of theirs. Besides - a good rider should adapt their style to each horse not ride each the same way. So when I teach I usually get up on the horse myself to see how the rider is feeling and will then try to help the rider to get the best they can out of that horse. Like I said im no genius myself Im just lucky to have learned under someone very talented who gets top results out of horses other people do not want.
I often ride a very stubborn connemara mare. She goes very well for me but can be bold with the less experienced. Now if I was to sit on her and give correct refined subtle aids I would get nowhere- however if I get up and put on a striong leg and keep my determination we get on great together.