Irish Integration-is it possible?

segaBOY

According to the CSO 10% of our population is foreign national, Conor Lenihen even said that the figures could be wrong and it could be up to 15%

I personally don't have a problem with sustained immigration-at the moment there is a labour shortage and the only way to satisfy this is by foreign labour, furthermore if refugee status is justified fair enough we should help-however since when is there famine or war in Nigeria? I welcome the Burmese refugees fleeing to Mayo but a point to note is that Asylum seekers who can afford a plane ticket to London and travel onwards to the Republic may not need Asylum in the conventional sense! I feel that the system is slightly abused here.

Just a thoguht, I hope that we can manage integration and not end up with a situation like in London where integration has failed and some people living there for 20+ years can still not speak English.

Anyone have any opinions on the situation at the moment?

Mr.Micro

Its nigh on impossible to control integration I think.First the host nation needs to be welcoming or at least accepting as far as is humanly possible and second, immigrants need to want to integrate .It is difficult to get both.In the US some years ago Spanish speaking people entering the country did everything to learn english so as to get on .Now many just stick with the Spanish as there is such a community in the US that people can get by in their own communities with their native tongue.Ghettoization can occur as well adding to the problem .Irish people in the UK and US have lived in Irish areas eg Kilburn , Cricklewood in London and often socialised with only Irish people .

marcsignal

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Its nigh on impossible to control integration I think. First the host nation needs to be welcoming or at least accepting as far as is humanly possible and second, immigrants need to want to integrate .It is difficult to get both. In the US some years ago Spanish speaking people entering the country did everything to learn english so as to get on . Now many just stick with the Spanish as there is such a community in the US that people can get by in their own communities with their native tongue.Ghettoization can occur as well adding to the problem .Irish people in the UK and US have lived in Irish areas eg Kilburn , Cricklewood in London and often socialised with only Irish people.

Don't know about that ? Some Turks living where I am in Germany are 2nd and 3rd generation and refused to learn German. They have consequently been given a time limit to get themselves on a German Language course to do so, or go back to Turkey. I have no problem with that, I had to start learning the language when I came here, otherwise I knew I'd have F*ck all chance of getting a decent job.

silverharp

given that the major groups here are Chinese on student visas or eastern european, i dont see the problem as being that big. culturally second gen polish for instance would be invisible here. i heard a polish family on a train the other day and when the kids were speaking english they had perfect local accents.

segaBOY

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Irish people in the UK and US have lived in Irish areas eg Kilburn , Cricklewood in London and often socialised with only Irish people .

True, not the case for all though-many Irish integrated and raised families with British nationals.

segaBOY

silverharp wrote: »

given that the major groups here are Chinese on student visas or eastern european, i dont see the problem as being that big. culturally second gen polish for instance would be invisible here. i heard a polish family on a train the other day and when the kids were speaking english they had perfect local accents.

Many Chinese people on student visas are only here to work, they get the college (which is more often than not a college you pay big bucks to attend) to stamp up their forms and write down that they have been attending the required time limit-a lot of them just get full time jobs and don't attend college, it was on Priome-Time a few years back

With regard your Polish comment that is quite true-wether the politically correctness among us likes it or not race is a big issue, if you are white and have an Irish accent you won't stand out as second generation Polish and integration is pretty much instant, unfortunitly the same cannot be said for other races, point in case is the situation in London where Irish nationals dropped the "O' " in their surname, made them sound less Irish and more British-can't see it working for a non-white!, not saying it is right or reccommended (personally I wouldn't do it) but it obviously made them feel more accepted

Zombrex

marcsignal wrote: »

Don't know about that ? Some Turks living where I am in Germany are 2nd and 3rd generation and refused to learn German. They have consequently been given a time limit to get themselves on a German Language course to do so, or go back to Turkey. I have no problem

Germany are deporting German born citizens to Turkey because they don't speak German?

Are you sure about that?

marcsignal

Wicknight wrote: »

Germany are deporting German born citizens to Turkey because they don't speak German?
Are you sure about that?

I'll have to try'n find a link to post Wicknight, because it may have been something that changed, since Angela Merkel was elected, so bear with me.

I know they are certainly having their social Welfare Reviewed, if they're in reciept of it. When I was without work here, it was one of the stipulations of getting payment, that I attend a German language course, or get no money.

I figure this could consequently drive a person into the balck economy, and then, hence, end up on the wrong side of the law.

I heard this said in pretty 'normal' circles of people here, not extremists from either side of the divide. I'll grill them a little further about it later.

bonkey

marcsignal wrote: »

When I was without work here, it was one of the stipulations of getting payment, that I attend a German language course, or get no money.

Are you a German citizen, an EU immigrant, or neither (as would be the case with Turkish first generation migrants).

I heard this said in pretty 'normal' circles of people here, not extremists from either side of the divide. I'll grill them a little further about it later.

To be fair, you'll hear (or you used to hear) in the 'normal' Irish circles about how asylum seekers were given free houses, free cars, free baby buggies, pocket money to levels which dwarfed social welfare, and more to boot.

bonkey

Wicknight wrote: »

Germany are deporting German born citizens to Turkey because they don't speak German?

Unless I'm mistaken, in Germany, being born inside the borders of the country does not automatically give you a right to citizenship.

Thus, there is no requirement for 2nd- or 3rd-generation Turks to be German born citizens. They could be German-born, but not citizens.

marcsignal

bonkey wrote: »

Are you a German citizen, an EU immigrant, or neither (as would be the case with Turkish first generation migrants).

I'm an Irish immigrant here, with very bad German Grammar I'm afraid I'll have to brush up on my 'Trennbar oder Nicht Trennbar' verbs

bonkey wrote: »

To be fair, you'll hear (or you used to hear) in the 'normal' Irish circles about how asylum seekers were given free houses, free cars, free baby buggies, pocket money to levels which dwarfed social welfare, and more to boot.

True, I have certainly heard the usual rants in Dublin. In my case, my girlfriend is Romanian, and fully integrated. I heard it in immigrant circles here. Having said that, I was surprised to find many other immigrants are not sympathetic to the Turks. Why ? I havn't really established, at this point.

john jo

i heard somewhere that it the immigration rate of a country should be considerably lower then the actual growth rate on of the natural population brilliant idea i though doubt it would ever be implemented though

marcsignal

john jo wrote: »

i heard somewhere that it the immigration rate of a country should be considerably lower then the actual growth rate on of the natural population brilliant idea i though doubt it would ever be implemented though

we'll i've no real issue with immigration, it would be pretty hypocritical of me to have, being an Irish immigrant in Germany. Nor do I want to sound like Myres and start going on about a 'Tidal Wave' of immigrants to Ireland, but it seems, that when we really needed to manage it most, we were totally unprepared, and there was nothing in place, to encourage people to integrate. I'd have been for rewarding immigrants for attending a Language course even, learning the lingo is a start anyway.

Hobbes

bonkey wrote: »

Unless I'm mistaken, in Germany, being born inside the borders of the country does not automatically give you a right to citizenship.

Thus, there is no requirement for 2nd- or 3rd-generation Turks to be German born citizens. They could be German-born, but not citizens.

Don't think that is legal under EU law unless Turkey reconises the children as citizens of Turkey.

marcsignal

Some official info in English here

http://www.melbourne.diplo.de/Vertretung/melbourne/en/04/Konsularischer__Service/Staatsangehoerigkeit/seite__erwerb__DStA.html

oscarBravo

john jo wrote: »

i heard somewhere that it the immigration rate of a country should be considerably lower then the actual growth rate on of the natural population brilliant idea

Brilliant why?

Fratton Fred

The problem affecting integration, is that people will naturally be drawn to areas where they feel safe, usually amongst their "own", which is how you tend to get Ghettos. Once you get Ghettos you get suspicion and that leads to hatred which leads to immigrants being more withdrawn.

Ireland would have to do something very special to avoid this happening. The current system of the Churches running 97% of the schools is not going to help, in fact it will create an even bigger problem, because children will not mix and the second and third generation immigrants will not mix. This is the hunting ground for Al Qeada as these are the guys who don't have a sense of belonging. They do not know their "Home" country and yet everyone tells them they are not Irish, because they are called Mohammed and didn;t learn English until they started school.

sovtek

segaBOY wrote: »

Just a thoguht, I hope that we can manage integration and not end up with a situation like in London where integration has failed and some people living there for 20+ years can still not speak English.

At least in the UK they can grant citizenship in a matter of weeks after immigrants have kept their end of the bargain and paid taxes for years. Here they are trying to shake out as many as they can by tightening the work permits, giving no guidelines to the INIS on granting LTR and citizenship and taking nearer to two years to do the last two and (Brian Lenihan) refusing to hire any more to process either. Oh and illegally refusing residency to non-EU nationals married to EU nationals.
This is after bilking those immigrants for years through work permit fees and GNIB card fees(nevermind the grand it costs for your citizenship).
Brian Lenihan is an ...!!!!

segaBOY

sovtek wrote: »

Here they are trying to shake out as many as they can by tightening the work permits

Believe it or not we are facing into an economic downturn-when this happens an oversupplied labour market with immigrants willing to work for lower wages will create large unemployment among the indigenous population, the labour market must be controlled in some way shape or form especially since Ireland has opened up their labour market to the EU (well most of it)-we need some control hence tighter labour restrictions for non-EU workers

sovtek wrote: »

Oh and illegally refusing residency to non-EU nationals married to EU nationals.

Really? Generally residency is refused if the non EU spouse has been living here illegally, hence breaking our immigration laws, if you break the law you should pay the price imo

sovtek wrote: »

Brian Lenihan is an ...!!!!

Have you met the man before? I have, quite a competent minister imo, you seem to have a grudge against Fianna Fáil judging by the link in your signature, little insults won't help your cause instead they will highlight your ignorance.

InFront

Fratton Fred wrote: »

This is the hunting ground for Al Qeada as these are the guys who don't have a sense of belonging. They do not know their "Home" country and yet everyone tells them they are not Irish, because they are called Mohammed and didn;t learn English until they started school.

Kids who don't speak English yet?
Suicide bomber if ever I saw one.

children will not mix and the second and third generation immigrants will not mix.

This really bugs me. Are you trying to suggest that by mixing they are diluting their badness or something?
That you have to know a quota of kids of Irish genealogy to teach some inherent goodness or morality to the individual?

silverharp

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The problem affecting integration, is that people will naturally be drawn to areas where they feel safe, usually amongst their "own", which is how you tend to get Ghettos. Once you get Ghettos you get suspicion and that leads to hatred which leads to immigrants being more withdrawn.

Ireland would have to do something very special to avoid this happening. The current system of the Churches running 97% of the schools is not going to help, in fact it will create an even bigger problem, because children will not mix and the second and third generation immigrants will not mix. This is the hunting ground for Al Qeada as these are the guys who don't have a sense of belonging. They do not know their "Home" country and yet everyone tells them they are not Irish, because they are called Mohammed and didn;t learn English until they started school.

with respect how does this apply to ireland. I can't think of one minority group here that have enough critical mass to form a ghetto based on religious or nationality. most non nationals here will integrate by 2nd generation assuming they stay. Thankfully we don't have to deal with large numbers of uneducated muslims from 3rd world countries.

OPENROAD

segaBOY wrote: »

True, not the case for all though-many Irish integrated and raised families with British nationals.

and so will many foreign nationals do the same here.

Fratton Fred

silverharp wrote: »

with respect how does this apply to ireland. I can't think of one minority group here that have enough critical mass to form a ghetto based on religious or nationality. most non nationals here will integrate by 2nd generation assuming they stay. Thankfully we don't have to deal with large numbers of uneducated muslims from 3rd world countries.

Immigration is still new to Ireland. As Ireland prospers it will attract economic migrants rather than young eastren europeans saving up for the deposit on their first house.

Fratton Fred

InFront wrote: »

Kids who don't speak English yet?
Suicide bomber if ever I saw one.
This really bugs me. Are you trying to suggest that by mixing they are diluting their badness or something?
That you have to know a quota of kids of Irish genealogy to teach some inherent goodness or morality to the individual?

Stop being so defensive. Young men who grow up in a country that is foreign to them will look for a sense of belonging, that has nothing to do with Islam. The PC brigade telling them they are Pakistani, Bangladeshi etc does not help create that sense of belonging, because they are not. They end up stuck between two cultures, so when someone comes along and tells them that whatever country their parents came from or they live in, their true brotherhood is Islam. This would be fine, except that there are people who exploit this and twist the ideals of Islam ala Al Qeada.

The Muslim community in the UK appears to be fully aware of this and from what I gather, is helping to combat it.

sovtek

segaBOY wrote: »

Believe it or not we are facing into an economic downturn-when this happens an oversupplied labour market with immigrants willing to work for lower wages will create large unemployment among the indigenous population, the labour market must be controlled in some way shape or form especially since Ireland has opened up their labour market to the EU (well most of it)-we need some control hence tighter labour restrictions for non-EU workers

You know that is, I imagine, what is going through Lenihan's noggin.
We have paid taxes and followed the law(as well as the €100 per annum "immigrant tax" in the form of the GNIB card). We have a right to residency and citizenship now! It's no excuse for Lenihan to try and undermine that through inaction on present (and future) applicants for LTR and citizenship.
In fact EU law requires it be done in 6 months (but yet again somehow Ireland is exempt from this).
Speaking of ignorance...work permits are only grant for jobs paying in excess of 35k!

Really? Generally residency is refused if the non EU spouse has been living here illegally, hence breaking our immigration laws, if you break the law you should pay the price imo

No these are people that come here with their EU spouse and are refused because McDowell (and subsequently Lenihan) decided that the Kumar case applies to everyone. This being against EU law and their right to freedom of movement.
Incidentally immigration law is not criminal law! Trying to even get the law out of anyone in INIS, Entemp or Justice right now is like pulling teeth. How do you expect people to follow the law when the people that are suppose to be policing it don't even know it themselves?
It's really rich your penchant for the law pertaining to immigrants to Ireland. Your fellow FF'er is getting glad handed by the lobby to ignore those ten fold number of Irish lawbreakers in America.

Have you met the man before? I have, quite a competent minister imo, you seem to have a grudge against Fianna Fáil judging by the link in your signature, little insults won't help your cause instead they will highlight your ignorance.

No but I've heard his feeble excuses for not doing something about the appalling backlog of LTR and citzenship applicants and arrogant denunciations of us foreignors.

segaBOY

sovtek wrote: »

You know that is, I imagine, what is going through Lenihan's noggin.
We have paid taxes and followed the law(as well as the €100 per annum "immigrant tax" in the form of the GNIB card). We have a right to residency and citizenship now! It's no excuse for Lenihan to try and undermine that through inaction on present (and future) applicants for LTR and citizenship.
In fact EU law requires it be done in 6 months (but yet again somehow Ireland is exempt from this).
Speaking of ignorance...work permits are only grant for jobs paying in excess of 35k!

Incorrect, please see here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/migrant-workers/employment-permits/work_permits

Your lack of information is only highlighting your ignorance, you must be earning in excess of €30,000 with the exception of a list of occupations, you really should not pick figures out of the sky just to make your arguement look better.

sovtek wrote: »

No these are people that come here with their EU spouse and are refused because McDowell (and subsequently Lenihan) decided that the Kumar case applies to everyone. This being against EU law and their right to freedom of movement.
Incidentally immigration law is not criminal law! Trying to even get the law out of anyone in INIS, Entemp or Justice right now is like pulling teeth. How do you expect people to follow the law when the people that are suppose to be policing it don't even know it themselves?
It's really rich your penchant for the law pertaining to immigrants to Ireland. Your fellow FF'er is getting glad handed by the lobby to ignore those ten fold number of Irish lawbreakers in America.

A) Irish lawbreakers in America are being dealt with by the US law reforms
It is not against EU law, if you entered Ireland illegally and then tried to gain residancy because you marry an EU national you will be deported because you broke Irish immigration law first day-NOT because you are marrying an EU national!

sovtek wrote: »

No but I've heard his feeble excuses for not doing something about the appalling backlog of LTR and citzenship applicants and arrogant denunciations of us foreignors.

Please give me some examples, with all due respect Sovtek you really don't have an idea of what you are talking about, you are obviously biased because you are an immigrant yourelf, I am trying to keep a level head here and I am a realist, I realise that if we continue out trend of mass immigration this country will face serious social and more severe economic problems.

Just like your first example, you made up the €35k figure, get some correct evidence to back up your arguement.

sovtek

segaBOY wrote: »

Incorrect, please see here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/migrant-workers/employment-permits/work_permits

Your lack of information is only highlighting your ignorance, you must be earning in excess of €30,000 with the exception of a list of occupations, you really should not pick figures out of the sky just to make your arguement look better.

I am on a work permit (still after 7 years in the country and having been married to an EU national at one time). It's not me that's ignorant. I'm living it!

A) Irish lawbreakers in America are being dealt with by the US law reforms

And Bertie is over there trying to get them treated differently than every other illegal immigrant in America as well as in Ireland. It's the utmost in hypocrisy...especially if you are irish and spouting on about illegal immigrants in Ireland
.

It is not against EU law, if you entered Ireland illegally and then tried to gain residancy because you marry an EU national you will be deported because you broke Irish immigration law first day-NOT because you are marrying an EU national!

You should probably back off on the ignorance accusations. That's not even what I'm referring to. Non EU nationals as spouses of EU nationals are being refused Residency because they did not live in another Member State first. That is against EU law!

Please give me some examples, with all due respect Sovtek you really don't have an idea of what you are talking about, you are obviously biased because you are an immigrant yourelf, I am trying to keep a level head here and I am a realist, I realise that if we continue out trend of mass immigration this country will face serious social and more severe economic problems.

I gave you plenty of examples...and yes I am "biased"...ie I know the reality of being an immigrant, and not even the worst of it being a professional, english speaking and white.
You will face serious social problems if your current Minister for Justice tries to malign those that have been here legally and followed the law.

Just like your first example, you made up the €35k figure, get some correct evidence to back up your arguement.

The fact that I was off 5k does nothing to undermine my argument. Your idea that immigrants are only here as chattel slaves to be turfed off at your leisure doesn't do anything for your argument either.

segaBOY

sovtek wrote: »

And Bertie is over there trying to get them treated differently than every other illegal immigrant in America as well as in Ireland. It's the utmost in hypocrisy...especially if you are irish and spouting on about illegal immigrants in Ireland

Eh no, Bertie isn't in the States trying to get Irish illegals treated differently at the moment, sorry Sovtek he spends most of his time in Ireland dealing with home issues. Also, were we not talking about Brian Lenihan?

sovtek wrote: »

I gave you plenty of examples

You didn't give me one

sovtek wrote: »

The fact that I was off 5k does nothing to undermine my argument. Your idea that immigrants are only here as chattel slaves to be turfed off at your leisure doesn't do anything for your argument either.

I never even suggested that immigrants are here as "chattel slaves", that really is slander I suggest you withdraw such a strong unture comment, read over my posts for God's sake, where did I use that term or imply such a thing? You are really putting words in my mouth. All I said was get your facts right with regard the 5K comment.

Also reread my initial post, I am not some raving racist who wants "all immigrants out" or have any views in that nature, I know and accept that there is a need for immigration especially with our labour shortage, I don't have a problem with it I just believe it has to be sustained and managed for social and economic good.

OPENROAD

segaBOY wrote: »

Eh no, Bertie isn't in the States trying to get Irish illegals treated differently at the moment, sorry Sovtek he spends most of his time in Ireland dealing with home issues. Also, were we not talking about Brian Lenihan?


But he and other TD's have done

Munya

OPENROAD wrote: »

But he and other TD's have done

Yeah and someone needs to tell him to cop-on. It's embarrassing, nothing should be done, they’re criminals.

sovtek

Munya wrote: »

Yeah and someone needs to tell him to cop-on. It's embarrassing, nothing should be done, they’re criminals.

I disagree. I'm merely pointing out the hypocrisy of the situation. Immigration law is not criminal law. Criminal law has checks and balances. Immigration law is to law as military music is to music. It's arbitrary and down to one person (the immigration official) this is not true of any other area of law (that I'm aware of). That's why no one is prosecuted for breaking immigration law.
The Irish in America often enough (like the "illegals" in Ireland) have paid taxes and contributed more than their fair share to their society. They have made it their home and often enough have relationships/family there and their connection to the "home" country is minimal. I have no problem with Bertie lobbying for the "illegals" and other immigrants to America. I just expect him to be as diligent, fair and respectful of the immigrants to his own country. Considering they've made a fair few of his buddies obscenely rich.
Besides would you really want tens of thousands of Rush Limbaugh fans with Boston accents running around Ireland?