Irish Integration-is it possible?

GuanYin

oscarBravo wrote: »

Like China?

I was about to say


I have to say, the notion of "some cultures are more suited than others" is a ridiculous one, especially for someone married to a chinese person.

Cultures integrate if they are allowed. Simple as that.

In any case, it's extremely rare for a first generation to integrate in any culture. Second and third on the other hand.

I'm fluent in Irish and I'm 2nd gen of a country that is extremely different to Ireland.

Sesshoumaru

oscarBravo wrote: »

Like China?

I think we can look closer to home Europe/USA/Australia. I can't think of any non Western countries that have current large scale immigration. I know you could point to examples like Malaysia, which has a large Chinese population. But other than that can't think of any outside the Western hemisphere. Open to correction on that point!

Sesshoumaru

psi wrote: »

I'm fluent in Irish and I'm 2nd gen of a country that is extremely different to Ireland.

That's pretty cool. I can't even speak Irish myself. Nor would I ask immigrants to learn it if I was in charge of immigration policy. Different cultures don't bother me either. Irish culture is far from perfect and I personally think it could do with some changes/evolution! I just have some red line issues where I think some cultures have practices that I find abhorrent. I really don't think this is an unreasonable position.

That doesn't necessarily mean banning all immigration from certain countries/regions. I'd be happy if we had some reasonably effective checks and balances at the individual level. Personally I'd be happier if it were possible to do this on an individual level. Since some immigrants might be coming here to escape some oppressive culture/regime in their own country.

MadsL

I can't think of any non Western countries that have current large scale immigration

Duly corrected.

MadsL

Just out of interest, as David McWilliams has pointed out - Irish immigration policy is largely set by Gordon Brown - an open border to the North means easy migration from the UK.

Would you accept a re-instatement of the border, and passport checks along the border with the North?

Sesshoumaru

MadsL wrote: »

Just out of interest, as David McWilliams has pointed out - Irish immigration policy is largely set by Gordon Brown - an open border to the North means easy migration from the UK.

Would you accept a re-instatement of the border, and passport checks along the border with the North?

I'm not in favour of installing checkpoints at the north and passport controls. I'm in favour of the EU in general and free movement of goods and people within the EU. If some EU countries have immigration policies that we as a society don't agree with then I'd prefer to try and sort that out at a European level. No matter what side of the fence you sit on its obvious that immigration is an important issue in Europe at the moment. It would probably be no harm if we tried to come up with a unified immigration policy across the block.

Sesshoumaru

MadsL wrote: »

Duly corrected.

In fairness most of those are Western countries. Can you give me some background on these figures? or a link to where you got them from?

GuanYin

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I just have some red line issues where I think some cultures have practices that I find abhorrent. I really don't think this is an unreasonable position.

I'm very curious as to what these cultural practices are.

I mean, Ireland has many cultural practices (excessive drinking for one, the way teens dress for another) that many other cultures, even western cultures, find disturbing.

If you are going to state that you find selective cultures abhorrent, I think it only fitting you tell us which ones, otherwise your whole point is rather nonsensical as you might just have a thing about funny hats.

Sesshoumaru

female genital mutilation, honour killings, no choice arranged marriages - stuff like that I don't much care for. I'm sure someone is going to say that its only a small minority that practice this crap, which it probably is. But one honour killing is one too many for me.

GuanYin

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

female genital mutilation, honour killings, no choice arranged marriages - stuff like that I don't much care for. I'm sure someone is going to say that its only a small minority that practice this crap, which it probably is. But one honour killing is one too many for me.

Ok, but being realistic FGM and killings are illegal in this country.

Honour killings take place in Irish society as part of certain "cultures" so I wouldn't label immigrants with that.

Arranged marriages are an interesting point, a friend of mine in london had an arranged marriage. Lasted about a year, they got divorced and now he's engaged to a girl he likes

I think thats down to the people participating, it's not really for us to judge whats right for them if they want to go through with it. If on the otherhand, someone is murdered, abused or otherwise in relation to this practice (as happened to that girl in England a while back) then that is another matter imo.

purple'n'gold

Cultural practises not only apply to different races or peoples, Jehovah witnesses do not allow blood transfusions as part of their religion, but the courts here can step in and allow doctors to give a transfusion to save a life. What I am saying is cultural practices are fine as long as they don’t break our laws, and the people involved are happy to go along with them. But no cultural practice should endanger anyone’s life.

sian

Hmmm the phrase 'blood boiling' is a bit worrying. Who exactly are 'the PC brigade'? I hate that phrase 'politically correct' it's a silly term that's often used as a stick to beat people who are willing to be flexible by people who are not.

It's really easy to talk about the 'pc brigade' when you were born on the right side of the gender, racial, religious and sexual orientation track. I'm sure that sounds sooooooooooo 'PC' but if you think about it there's more than a nugget of truth in there. Strap on a uterus or some extra melanin for a few days and see how you fare!!!

I do agree that you can go over the top with trying to accomodate everyone. You'll end up accomodating no one!!!! I have very little time for the Catholic church (once bitten etc.) but I think the fact that the country is traditionally Catholic/Christian should continue to be recongnised,respected and accomodated. I would like to point out however that it's more likely to be an Irish atheist that might be offended by a crib than any foreigner. Muslims for example recognise Jesus as a prophet, so are less likely to be offended by a crib than an Irish non-believer which MANY of my generation are. I think you should take that into account before assuming it's always foreigners who induce/demand these 'PC' changes. Also it should be pointed out here that the percentage of foreigners coming into this country who are not Christian is absolutely tiny in comparison to those who are Christian. The English, Eastern Europeans, Nigerians and Latin Americans are very unlikely to object as they're all predominantly Christian.

As for your determination that Irish people 'won't change to fit in with foreigners culture', I think that's a little paranoid. Having a little bit of respect for other people doesn't mean you have to 'change', it's just good manners, which we were all taught about in Irish schools. There's no harm in being open to new ways of doing things and there's a lot to be learned on both sides. Why not learn from the Brazilians, for example, how to occasionally go out and have a good time without causing massive damage to our livers. Waa hey!!! I have, and it's cheap!!!

I agree that we should retain our own culture but the greatest threat to our own culture is not foreigners but ourselves. 100% and I mean 100% of the foreigners I know get really interested and enthusiastic when they see Irish people being enthusiastic about or expressing their own Irish culture, be it through simply 'the craic' or language, music, dance, stories or history. You will notice that a lot of them try to pick up our colloquiallisms where ever they're living cos they like them. Being / Staying true to yourself and being open to other people are not mutually exclusive, infact you need to be one to achieve the other.

Less blood boiling, more measured, thought out reactions to the things changing around us, addressing the issues and getting on with it. Perhaps for the Irish living abroad it's all a bit more worrying cos they might imagine Irelands culture is being ripped up while they're away !!! hee hee. Nobody, especially the immigrants coming in here, is interested in taking anyone's Irishness away, if you loose it, you may not have had a very good grasp of it in the first place and that's your prob, no one elses. And it's 2007, so anyone who doesn't like change in itself should find a nice hole in a desert or up a very big mountain, set up camp and stay there. Otherwise you're just going to be very very pissed off until you die. And we'll all have to listen to ye.