16% of travellers in employment

flogen

The_Minister wrote: »

You mean all 9 of them:rolleyes:
(people who pay no/very little tax)

I suppose it depends on your definition of "very little tax" but the figure is certainly more than 9.

Then you have the issue of those who aren't even resident/registered in Ireland for taxation purposes.

On topic: Wicknight's breakdown of the problems at hand are pretty accurate - there is no easy solution here.

It seems to me that the OP came along looking to moan about the bloody travellers scabbing off the state, however, and despite claims to the contrary certainly isn't here for a discussion.

marcsignal

Stekelly wrote: »

Just on that point, can your average homeless man from say, dublin city centre, claim dole?

Good question ? It seems homeless people get 'Supplemetary Welfare Benefit'
http://www.welfare.ie/publications/sw4/s9.html

Stekelly wrote: »

They should be put in a job, working in a shop, road sweeping or any one of a number of jobs they felt werent worth theri while getting out of bed for for years. If after that they fail to stay in that job, it's their own business what they do, but no more hand outs.

Don't entirely disagree with you, but as it has already been said, who would employ a Traveller ?? Unless they could 'Trade Goods' or something, themselves, independently, and be regulated by the Tax Man, it's a tough call.

Guy:Incognito

marcsignal wrote: »

Don't entirely disagree with you, but as it has already been said, who would employ a Traveller ?? Unless they could 'Trade Goods' or something, themselves, independently, and be regulated by the Tax Man, it's a tough call.

I was talking about everyone on the dole. As for travellers, the could be employed either directly or indirectly by the government or local authorities. FFS give them a wall in a government building somewhere to paint over and over, at least they'll be earning the money instead of getting it for nothing.

Beano

Mr.Micro wrote: »

With respect Beano,You mean the politicians and big business men and all the other chancers in Ireland .

There are several groups in this country that meet the description i gave. As the discussion was about travellers i assumed you would understand that it was them i was referring to.

Beano

marcsignal wrote: »

I confess to not having much time for Travellers, but Mr. Micro has raised a very valid point.

His point was also irrelevant to the discussion. By all means start a thread on politicians and big business men and i will happliy join in with the condemnation.

Liam Byrne

layke wrote: »

Trust me mate, a lot of these boys are loaded and still collect your money every week.

Apart from objecting to you trying to invoke suspicions by using "a lot" (please quote figures or else use "some"), I will agree with you on some level; "some" are definitely doing this, just as "some" settled people are.

So there's no more and no less suspicion or disgust required than "people in general".....why single out travellers ?

And unless it's means-tested and we weed out ALL the chancers (TDs, travellers, foreigners, Irish, asylum seekers, etc) or unless you can categorically show how the number doing it is disproportionate to the overall number for the general population, then the Indo has no reason to single out travellers.

Mr.Micro

Beano wrote: »

There are several groups in this country that meet the description i gave. As the discussion was about travellers i assumed you would understand that it was them i was referring to.

You cant just pick out one group as it is not balanced and not the rest particularly when its is the big shots who are supposed to set the example.

Beano

Mr.Micro wrote: »

You cant just pick out one group as it is not balanced and not the rest particularly when its is the big shots who are supposed to set the example.

I have no intention of getting into a strawman argument about the tax paying activities of our esteemed leaders and rich business men. can you at least acknowledge that there is a great deal of truth in what i said?

Mr.Micro

Beano wrote: »

I have no intention of getting into a strawman argument about the tax paying activities of our esteemed leaders and rich business men. can you at least acknowledge that there is a great deal of truth in what i said?

Yes Beano you may have a valid point in what you say ,I dont think I categorically disputed that .

purple'n'gold

dodgyme wrote: »

From todays indo. 16% of travellers of working age are in employment. :rolleyes:

This has to be nonsense, every tinker in the country is working, but they are working in the black economy for themselves or their families.

FTA69

Depends on what you mean by the black economy though. Most of them provide services like tree topping or painting sheds etc, others are involved in the lucrative scrap trade.

Beano

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Yes Beano you may have a valid point in what you say ,I dont think I categorically disputed that .

so the problem then is that i only referred to travellers? given the topic of the thread I thought it was reasonable to stay on topic.

Beano

FTA69 wrote: »

Depends on what you mean by the black economy though. Most of them provide services like tree topping or painting sheds etc, others are involved in the lucrative scrap trade.

I thought the meaning of black economy was pretty clear. They work for cash and dont pay paye and prsi.

Zombrex

Stekelly wrote: »

it's their own business what they do, but no more hand outs.

No, its my business when they end up sleeping in the streets, begging and involved in crime.

People seem to really miss the point of social welfare.

FTA69

I thought the meaning of black economy was pretty clear. They work for cash and dont pay paye and prsi.

I thought black economy meant crime. Anyway, there's loads of people in Ireland who do that, numbers that far exceed the entire Traveller population.

Guy:Incognito

Wicknight wrote: »

No, its my business when they end up sleeping in the streets, begging and involved in crime.

People seem to really miss the point of social welfare.

So we should support people, giving them free money just because they feel they shouldnt have to work/ cant be bothered gettign off their arses during the day like everyone else? The government should only go so far to help people.

I really fail to see any reason why people shouldnt be made work for the dole money. The could do jobs for the government (send them out picking up litter al day) with time off to go to verifiable interviews (although this could be cut out if they are takign the piss) for better jobs. I cant see a downside to that.

Mr.Micro

Stekelly wrote: »

So we should support people, giving them free money just because they feel they shouldnt have to work/ cant be bothered gettign off their arses during the day like everyone else? The government should only go so far to help people.

I really fail to see any reason why people shouldnt be made work for the dole money. The could do jobs for the government (send them out picking up litter al day) with time off to go to verifiable interviews (although this could be cut out if they are takign the piss) for better jobs. I cant see a downside to that.

Ease off a little there,people on the dole have not committed a crime have they
Being on the dole is tough enough I can imagine making ends meet .Anybody could end up out of a job . Not all dole people are wasters .Various reasons such as mental illness , social problems ,health problems etc etc can all be factors for being on the dole.ITS NOT A CRIME ,nor do such people need to be punished.

Beano

FTA69 wrote: »

I thought black economy meant crime. Anyway, there's loads of people in Ireland who do that, numbers that far exceed the entire Traveller population.

In absolute terms I am sure you are correct. Per capita i very much doubt it.

Guy:Incognito

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Ease off a little there,people on the dole have not committed a crime have they
Being on the dole is tough enough I can imagine making ends meet .Anybody could end up out of a job . Not all dole people are wasters .Various reasons such as mental illness , social problems ,health problems etc etc can all be factors for being on the dole.ITS NOT A CRIME ,nor do such people need to be punished.

Since when is being made work a punishment? God forbid people should be productive and earn money. Anyway, the discussion was about medium-long term unemployed. Somone who is fully able to work should not be on the dole more than a few weeks. The problem is people have an atitude that certain jobs are below them.

On the medical issue, are people out of work on medical issues not on some for of illness or disability payments ratehr that the standard dole? Either way, the discussion was about your averagejoe dole collector and/or travellers on the dole.

So again I ask the question. Whats wrong with making people actually work for their dole and why do you view making them work as "punishment"?

If people had to turn up and work 5 days a week for the government you can bet anythign you like the figures for the dole would drop a chunk as I'd guarentee the people working and on the dole are earnign more through working than from the dole.

Oh and claiming dole while also workign is a crime (which was also being discussed here. Re:travellers)

oscarBravo

Stekelly wrote: »

They should be put in a job, working in a shop, road sweeping or any one of a number of jobs they felt werent worth theri while getting out of bed for for years.

Speaking as an employer: I'll pick my own employees, thanks.

Guy:Incognito

oscarBravo wrote: »

Speaking as an employer: I'll pick my own employees, thanks.

I didnt mean they'd be force on employers. They can be sent to interview for all the jobs that obviously dont interest them enough to get out of bed 5 days a week for. Thats also why I put in about them being either directly or indirectly being employed by the government/local authorities. Sweepign roads/ cleaning rubbish/ clearing up after illegal halting sites etc.

Mr.Micro

Oh and claiming dole while also workign is a crime (which was also being discussed here. Re:travellers)[/QUOTE]

The thread is about so few travellers registered to work .Your analysis of people on the dole is ,it appears to me ,to humiliate recipients eg picking up litter . and travellers sweeping the streets, clearing halting sites . Is that the best type of work that you can suggest ?The dole is there for all who become unemployed as long as they are entitled to receive it .,people who contributed taxe, vat, Prsi etc so are entitled to get the dole .As regards working for it I believe FAS have scheme where long term unemployed have to work in the community for periods .Its not a chain gang scenario we want and I repeat its not a crime to become unemployed and seek dole.Not everybody can be lucky all the time .Live and let live I say.

flogen

FTA69 wrote: »

I thought black economy meant crime. Anyway, there's loads of people in Ireland who do that, numbers that far exceed the entire Traveller population.

Well by definition it does as it's a crime to work without being registered for tax, PAYE or PRSI.

Guy:Incognito

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Oh and claiming dole while also workign is a crime (which was also being discussed here. Re:travellers)

The thread is about so few travellers registered to work .Your analysis of people on the dole is ,it appears to me ,to humiliate recipients eg picking up litter . and travellers sweeping the streets, clearing halting sites . Is that the best type of work that you can suggest ?The dole is there for all who become unemployed as long as they are entitled to receive it .,people who contributed taxe, vat, Prsi etc so are entitled to get the dole .As regards working for it I believe FAS have scheme where long term unemployed have to work in the community for periods .Its not a chain gang scenario we want and I repeat its not a crime to become unemployed and seek dole.Not everybody can be lucky all the time .Live and let live I say.[/QUOTE]

Do you look down on the guys who are employed by the council to sweep the streets? Do you think they are humiliated? It's a job. Your sidestepping what I'm saying about people on the dole. everyone cant be lucky all the time?. Theres a job out there for more or less everyone. The problem is too many people think some of these jobs are below them and not worth coming off the doel for.

If street sweeping is a job good enough for people to apply for and work at, why is it humiliating for people on the dole long term to do it?

I'm all for live and let live, but only as long as what other are doing doesnt cost me money or effect me. Lots more people on the dole than there should be pushes up the costs for the rest of us and pushes down the money goign to other thigns that are needed.

Mr.Micro

STEKELLY. It is not me that looks down on people that sweep the streets ,far from it but your rhetoric so far has been sweeping the streets, cleaning up halting sites ,and picking litter , not the most glamourous of jobs .

There are better jobs I believe ,that dole people could do but you have not suggested them. What rate would that be per hour do you think , get the dole and the hours worked would be minimum wage per hour ? How many hours would that be ,as the dole is not great money .Hey look there is a dole guy cleaning up the rubbish .Anonymous or what .Anyway this difference of opinion is going nowhere .Yes there are work shy people who never intend to work even if the were offered a good job.

Guy:Incognito

Mr.Micro wrote: »

STEKELLY. It is not me that looks down on people that sweep the streets ,far from it but your rhetoric so far has been sweeping the streets, cleaning up halting sites ,and picking litter , not the most glamourous of jobs .

There are better jobs I believe ,that dole people could do but you have not suggested them. What rate would that be per hour do you think , get the dole and the hours worked would be minimum wage per hour ? How many hours would that be ,as the dole is not great money .Hey look there is a dole guy cleaning up the rubbish .Anonymous or what .Anyway this difference of opinion is going nowhere .Yes there are work shy people who never intend to work even if the were offered a good job.

There may be a small percentage of highly skilled people on the dole, but tbh I doubt theres that many. The country is not exactly overrun with doctors.

Why picking up litter etc you ask? Well because it was the first thing that came to mind and I was using it as an example. If you look back I actually suggested shop work aswell as another alternative.


As for them being recognised? theres already street sweeper etc out there so unless people on the dole are painted purple I dont see how anyone would know the difference. Another reason for choosing litter and cleaning halting sites etc is that the country is pretty much a tip becasue a large amount of the public are litterign scumbags so it's an area that could do with a large injection of man-hours. We're already paying them, I dont see why we shouldnt get somethign back.

As for pay, yes minimum wage. The sceme is to make use of the people on the dole as a workforce. The alternativce for them is whats already their alternative: get a job.

donaghs

donaghs wrote: »

Does anyone remember when the social welfare services on both sides of the border got together to synchronise times for social welfare payments to cut down on cross-border fraud. There was uproar in the Travelling Community.

yes.
i think i remember that guy from glenroe who is head of their organisation bitching about it.......

like so many things, its a case of "if you havent done anything wrong then you have nothing to be afraid of"

Zombrex

Stekelly wrote: »

So we should support people, giving them free money just because they feel they shouldnt have to work/ cant be bothered gettign off their arses during the day like everyone else?

Yes. What is the alternative?

You do realise we live in a work that requires money to continue living? They will have to get it some how. Unless you are expect them to just crawl up into a corner of the nearest crack den and die quietly without bothering you.

Stekelly wrote: »

The government should only go so far to help people.

I wouldn't consider the dole going particular far to help people.

Stekelly wrote: »

I really fail to see any reason why people shouldnt be made work for the dole money.

Who are going to force to employ them? The "government" isn't some magical all powerful spirit. There are people in the government. Having a public service job is pretty much the same as having a private service one. You have a boss, you have co-workers. You would have to force these people to take on people who don't want to be there. It sounds a lot more hassle than it is worth. I've worked for public service institutions, if someone placed a grumpy skanger down beside me and said "find them something to do" I would not be that please. I would just say "Here is some money, now f**k off"

Tha Gopher

Deleted User wrote: »

yes.
i think i remember that guy from glenroe who is head of their organisation bitching about it.......

like so many things, its a case of "if you havent done anything wrong then you have nothing to be afraid of"

Pavee Point are nothing more than a support group for people who break the law. It is seldom they will admit any of their community problems are self inflicted. When they stop championing the likes of Frog Ward my opinion may change. They will likely blame this statistic on racism and the fact traveller women cant afford childcare as they have larger families (a result, they will then tell you, of travellers being too religious and pious to join the 21st century and use contraception). Ive personally never worked with a traveller, despite the four figure amount of various nationalities Ive worked with. Come to think of it I have never seen one in any workplace (I do have a joke about one who applies for a job in a sporting goods store, but this is neither the time nor the place )

Wicknight- the government is not a charity. You ask what the alternative is. The alternative is to not give benefits to those with no legitimate reason for not having a job. Their choices are then

a- Get a job

b- Emigrate to the UK and live off their benefits system.

If the travellers refuse to work, we do not owe them a living, simple as. They do not deserve a cent of my tax money. If they dont like it they can move to the UK, as the government there is even better than ours in terms of helping those unwilling to help themselves.

Tell me what is wrong with the above?

Hobbes wrote: »

Here is the actual story.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/only-16pc-of-travellers-are--in-employment-1231891.html

Travellers make up 0.5% of the population. Of that 59% are of the working age (0.295% of Irish population).

This working age disparity we have known about for years. It was worse in 1994 (iirc).

So it is 3,584 registered themselves as working out of 22,400. Low numbers? Yes, but the total can't be taken on it's own.

What? Are you suggesting that it is 16% because the Indo is counting children in its eye grabbing headline?

"Some 87pc of men and 70pc of women aged 25-44 are in employment, but this falls to just 15.8pc among Travellers of this age group, the Equality in Ireland 2007 report by the Central Statistics Office shows"

How unclear or skewed is that exactly? 15.8% of them aged 25-44 are employed. While I get up and go to work, 84.2% spend their days either in bed or in the black economy. Confused? I cant be bothered looking for the actual report by the CSO. If you can, and it turns out the indo has been telling porkies, I owe you a pint. If not, I think you are the one manipulating statistics rather than the indo (and believe me, I am no fan of the indo).

oscarBravo

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Tell me what is wrong with the above?

It's basically trolling, that's what.