british teacher names teddy after prophet - Threads Merged

Suff

names such as Jesus, Moses, Muhammad, Isac, Ishmael, Jacob are all very popular in the Middle East. I bet you'll find in some house within the MiddleEast a teddy named "Muhammad".

IMO This redicoulas issue occured as British/Christian woman was associated with the teddy. If a Syrian/Lebanses/egyptian teacher were in the same place nothing would have happened.

The cultural gap between the East and West is getting wider and more diffecult to resolve. People need to become more cultured. how?...both sides have to work together on this one.

Latchy

Were one (the west ) is more tolerent than the other ,that will not be easy .

SubjectSean

latchyco wrote: »

What we have to remember is all races are capable of making racist remarks. One irk amoung a lot of white british is the black ,asian or otherwise person with a chip on his/her shoulder about whites, and who uses the race card at every oppurtunity,somtimes unnessecarily.

What we have to remember, especially in these times, is that there is no such thing as "races" and that they're a racist colonial invention: a purely social construct. Anybody who thinks otherwise is by definition a racist. Can you tell me any one thing that is true about "all blacks" or "all whites"? It's a false division that is a load of bollocks and you may as well talk crap about people with different coloured eyes. I don't care what shade of skin anybody has but if they're talking in this "black" and "white" crap they're a racist. Who is anybody to call me "white"? Am I a dog that I go by my coat colour? If I stand in front of a fridge do I dissapear? Go up to a Chinese man and call him "yellow" I hope he kung-fu's you up

Playboy

SubjectSean wrote: »

What we have to remember, especially in these times, is that there is no such thing as "races" and that they're a racist colonial invention: a purely social construct. Anybody who thinks otherwise is by definition a racist. Can you tell me any one thing that is true about "all blacks" or "all whites"? It's a false division that is a load of bollocks and you may as well talk crap about people with different coloured eyes. I don't care what shade of skin anybody has but if they're talking in this "black" and "white" crap they're a racist. Who is anybody to call me "white"? Am I a dog that I go by my coat colour? If I stand in front of a fridge do I dissapear? Go up to a Chinese man and call him "yellow" I hope he kung-fu's you up

Well I wouldnt go as far to say that they are a "purely social construct". There may not be intellectual differences (although this is disputed) but there are quite obvious physical differences between racial groups. I dont think you are a 'racist' if you acknowledge that there is a difference.

I do feel though that we are moving away from a 'racsim' based on skin colour and moving towards one that emphasizes cultural differences as a reason to hate. I don't think anyone thinks people are 'inferior' because of their skin colour anymore but these is definetly an air of cultural superiority emerging between groups all over the world. We think certain groups are 'uncivilized' while they think we are ungodly and vulgar in our lifestyles. The problem is that there is no way of ascertaining what a 'better' culture is. Is it the happier culture? How do we measure happiness and so on the merry go round goes. We have to start accepting that our rules for living our lives are no better than anyone elses, otherwise there will never be an honest and progressive dialouge between cultures.

Lemming

Suff wrote: »

The cultural gap between the East and West is getting wider and more difficult to resolve. People need to become more cultured. how?...both sides have to work together on this one.

I don't think the gap is getting wider Suff, it's simply getting more air-time. Extremists in both camps are being given far too much oxygen with which to pedal their own hate-filled and narrow agendas. For example, the crowds baying for this teacher's blood were bused in, i.e. orchestrated. And yet society (in this case moderate Muslim Sudan) says nothing against them.

I'm not suggesting that either culture should 'silence' extremists since that would be fundamentally bad and only give such people further fuel. Instead, such people should be ridiculed for the pathetic vermin that they are and their arguments shown for the hypocrisy and flawed 'simple' thinking that they are.

Hivemind187

Lemming wrote: »

I don't think the gap is getting wider Suff, it's simply getting more air-time. Extremists in both camps are being given far too much oxygen with which to pedal their own hate-filled and narrow agendas. For example, the crowds baying for this teacher's blood were bused in, i.e. orchestrated. And yet society (in this case moderate Muslim Sudan) says nothing against them.

I'm not suggesting that either culture should 'silence' extremists since that would be fundamentally bad and only give such people further fuel. Instead, such people should be ridiculed for the pathetic vermin that they are and their arguments shown for the hypocrisy and flawed 'simple' thinking that they are.

Careful now. Some of us have recieved bans for less

InFront

Originally posted by MarkColeman
are you a muslim? You cannot be a muslim and keep a straight face when talking about people undermining other peoples cultures.

MC you are sailing very close to the wind with that comment. Any more remarks like that at all and you will be given a temporary ban from the forum. Please re-read the forum charter

As for this thread, I know it can be difficult to separate state from religion sometimes but can we please at least try to keep it to discussion of Islamic teachings? (also as per the forum charter).
Also, be aware that the utterings of some Sudanese clerics does not automatically equal Islamic teaching, or most people's understanding of it. Also, the Gollywogs, and other dodgy Enid Blyton books, are way off topic.

InFront

Lemming wrote: »

For example, the crowds baying for this teacher's blood were bused in, i.e. orchestrated. And yet society (in this case moderate Muslim Sudan) says nothing against them.

Just noticed this comment. How do you know that's the case?

Believe it or not guys, most people are good people. Most people want the same things out of life, put the same things into life, and are just happy enough getting on with their lives. I'm sure most regular people, even in Sudan - especially in Sudan - are not losing any sleep over that teddy. I don't think the media has ever asked them, because shrugging one's shoulders is far less exciting than the few who are baying for blood.

The fact that most Muslims aren't up on a pedestal making speeches about the teddy, probably means they don't really care about the teddy. I don't think we should have to go to any extreme lengths to state the obvious.

SubjectSean

InFront wrote: »

Also, the Gollywogs, and other dodgy Enid Blyton books, are way off topic.

Somebody tried to introduce them as the teachers friend. Unfortunate choice but once it had raised it tousled head it had to be dealt with. It's only difficult to separate Church from State in these instances if you a) have no clue about the church and b) have no clue about the state.

dlofnep

SubjectSean wrote: »

No I'm not a muslim I'm a christian but not like the all the ones on the post-Nicean buzz. Anyhow religion has got nothing to do with it. This is all about culture and the bottom line is that you don't go imparting offensive crap to other peoples children in countries where you can get the lash for it. It's really dumb like. She got off lightly for her ignorance. Sheer unthinking ignorance.

She got 15 days in prison for naming a Teddy Bear. I don't care if she called if Osama Bin Laden, you don't put someone in prison for naming a Teddy Bear.

The mere fact that people are in large numbers in the streets calling for her death is proof to me that Islam fails as a religion. Today's world has no place for that sort of thing.

I'm athiest, but let's pretend Mohammed is the one god and he's watching over everyone.. Do you REALLY think he would care if some nice lady named a teddy bear the same name as him? Absolutely not. And if you think he does then that suggests to me that he's an unforgiving God and a nonsensical God. And surely, if he's the almighty - then it wouldn't make sense for him to be either of those.

Get a grip on reality.

Suff

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm athiest, but let's pretend Mohammed is the one god and he's watching over everyone..

And if you think he does then that suggests to me that he's an unforgiving God and a nonsensical God. And surely, if he's the almighty - then it wouldn't make sense for him to be either of those.

Please before posting such statments Educateyourself on Islam. Muhammad (PBUH) is a prophet, a normal man and not a deity in any sort or form. he is respected as a prophet therefor any depiction of him in any form of an image would be an Insult to the Islamic faith. This also applies to Moses and Christ and the rest of the prophets (PBUT).

*edit: no prophet is worshipped in Islam, only GOD (a unique one deity)

I've already stated and most people have posted simular replies that this incident is redicuolous and is being over hyped by the Sudanese goverment and the media alike.

dlofnep

Prophet, god.. Whatever. It doesn't change the fact that a woman is in prison for alowing Teddy bear to be called Muhammad. And I'll pass on the educating of myself on some hearsay stories that have been passed down through generation after generation, mistranslated and accumulated into complete and utter nonsense via a chinese whispers effect.

Lemming

InFront wrote: »

Just noticed this comment. How do you know that's the case?

Indeed I don't. Nor does anyone else. And therein lies the problem. In the absence of sound, void becomes sound. Or in this case, extremist idiots bent on pushing some puritan agenda. Little has come out of Sudan other than the official government line and the clamoring of the religious right for "justice", which I emphasis in quotes for irony.

Plenty has come from the rest of the world, both Muslim and non-Muslim alike with the overwhelming majority of it expressing disbelief or embarrassment over this incident. But as encouraging as that is, it is Sudanese that need to make their voices heard the most here since it is their society that is failing to stand up for compassion and common sense.

Believe it or not guys, most people are good people. Most people want the same things out of life, put the same things into life, and are just happy enough getting on with their lives. I'm sure most regular people, even in Sudan - especially in Sudan - are not losing any sleep over that teddy. I don't think the media has ever asked them, because shrugging one's shoulders is far less exciting than the few who are baying for blood.

The fact that most Muslims aren't up on a pedestal making speeches about the teddy, probably means they don't really care about the teddy. I don't think we should have to go to any extreme lengths to state the obvious.

No argument there. You make a very good point in whether or not the media has been asking the common Sudanese person as to what they thought of the current dilemma.

Ciaran500

Suff wrote: »

he is respected as a prophet therefor any depiction of him in any form of an image would be an Insult to the Islamic faith. This also applies to Moses and Christ and the rest of the prophets (PBUT).

Does Islam ever take offence to Christianity constantly using depictions of Jesus then?

dlofnep

Lemming wrote: »

No argument there. You make a very good point in whether or not the media has been asking the common Sudanese person as to what they thought of the current dilemma.

Oh... The normal Sudanese aside from the 1000's on the streets with knifes and machetes calling for her death?

SubjectSean

dlofnep wrote: »

She got 15 days in prison for naming a Teddy Bear. I don't care if she called if Osama Bin Laden, you don't put someone in prison for naming a Teddy Bear.

YOU don't put somebody in prison for it and I wouldn't but that is because we are educated and well fed. People in Sudan are not educated and well fed. You must get real. You cannot judge them by your standards until they are educated and well fed. I am too scared to travel in Sudan, there is great madness and suffering there. If you go to a place like Sudan - seriously watch out. This woman didn't and she does not have my sympathy.

However, I'm fairly outraged over Darfur. The fact that you and so many others would raise your voice against the Sudanese authorities over some stupid european woman but not even mention the hundreds of thousands killed by their own government, well frankly it leaves me gobsmacked.

dlofnep wrote: »

The mere fact that people are in large numbers in the streets calling for her death is proof to me that Islam fails as a religion. Today's world has no place for that sort of thing.

Before the mass of Christians were educated they were burning people at the stake. Most people in Africa believe in witchcraft. Try to look hard at the planet you are on. If you think that the world has no place for this type of thing then look at it's real causes instead of attacking a perfectly servicable religion. Because Christians had the inquisition and the auto da fe do you think these were things that come from the Christian religion and that there is something wrong with Christianity? No, it is human ignorance that is wrong and all the worlds religions are very vocal in saying so. Our number system and a good deal of the science that underpins our culture comes from Islam.

It is stupid to suggest that all the people from Morocco to Pakistan and beyond are the same by virtue of Islam. If they are the same in any respect it is poverty.

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm athiest, but let's pretend Mohammed is the one god and he's watching over everyone..

You have this wrong amigo. Mohammed was a prophet who came to preach against the trinity and the divinity of Jesus. God is the singular entity accredited with being the designer of the universe and in Islam is genderless so isn't a "he" but an "it".

dlofnep wrote: »

Do you REALLY think he would care if some nice lady named a teddy bear the same name as him? Absolutely not. And if you think he does then that suggests to me that he's an unforgiving God and a nonsensical God. And surely, if he's the almighty - then it wouldn't make sense for him to be either of those.

Get a grip on reality.

Sorry but I can't argue metaphysics with an atheist who has conceded God and write it off as getting a grip on reality. I am however in no position whatsoever to know what God might or might not care about on any given day. You work away there you might come up with something but for my part, and purely for arguments sake, I reckon God would think she was very dumb

dlofnep

SubjectSean wrote: »

However, I'm fairly outraged over Darfur. The fact that you and so many others would raise your voice against the Sudanese authorities over some stupid european woman but not even mention the hundreds of thousands killed by their own government, well frankly it leaves me gobsmacked.

You assumed I haven't cared about Darfur, but I've been following it since last year. But I appreciate where your coming from in regards to the priority to which what the media is taken to.

SubjectSean wrote: »

Before the mass of Christians were educated they were burning people at the stake.

I've no time for fundamentalist Christians either. I've no time for anyone who pushes reality aside for some fable.

SubjectSean wrote: »

Most people in Africa believe in witchcraft. Try to look hard at the planet you are on. If you think that the world has no place for this type of thing then look at it's real causes instead of attacking a perfectly servicable religion.

What's servicable? Sharia Law? The world would survive just fine without religion.

SubjectSean wrote: »

Sorry but I can't argue metaphysics with an atheist who has conceded God and write it off as getting a grip on reality. I am however in no position whatsoever to know what God might or might not care about on any given day. You work away there you might come up with something but for my part, and purely for arguments sake, I reckon God would think she was very dumb

I've no problem with anyone having faith, but when they push that faith onto someone else and try dictate someone's life by it, then that becomes a problem to me. A big problem.

And if you think that if God existed and he considered her dumb for naming a Teddy Bear - then you're irony defined.

SubjectSean

You are failing to take on board my whole point about this seemingly uncivilised behaviour being an educational and economic matter. Also you are assuming that all Muslims would wish to be governed under sharia law and that all interpretations of sharia law are the same. This is not the case and the number wishing to be governed under harsh sharia laws would undoubtedly decline if people were better educated and fed and living under less harsh conditions. For you to judge and condemn them from your position of extreme comfort is laughable. When your own ancestors were in harsh conditions they always did harsh things.

InFront

dlofnep wrote: »

I'll pass on the educating of myself on some hearsay stories that have been passed down through generation after generation, mistranslated and accumulated into complete and utter nonsense via a chinese whispers effect.

dlofnep wrote: »

Islam fails as a religion

I'm tempted to ban you, but am going to re-direct you to the Islam Forum Charter in case you don't actually get the purpose and rules of the forum. One more outburst like either of the above and there'll be no option but to ban you.

Originally posted by Ciaran500
Does Islam ever take offence to Christianity constantly using depictions of Jesus then?

None of us can speak for Islam really. Personally I'd say I find it distasteful, but no, their beliefs don't offend me, it's not like they set out or intend to offend.

Playboy

Could anyone point me to the surah or hadith where this rule about depicting prophets is outlawed?

dlofnep

InFront wrote: »

I'm tempted to ban you, but am going to re-direct you to the Islam Forum Charter in case you don't actually get the purpose and rules of the forum. One more outburst like either of the above and there'll be no option but to ban you.

It's my opinion - this thread has received attention from people outside of Islam so don't be suprised if you hear criticism of your religion. Those are my personal thoughts on this whole situation - if you want to ban me for having an opinion that's different to yours, so be it.

I reaffirm my initial point - I've no problem with religion if it's a personal choice but when those beliefs affect how other people can live then it becomes a problem. It's Islam's fault that a woman is in prison - nothing else. It's Islam's fault that a bunch of nutters are running around the street with Machetes calling for her death. I believe Islam fails as a religion because of this, and various other occurances over the past few years.

That's my opinion. This is a public discussion forum, not a concentration camp. We are entitled to an opinion.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

no one would be banning you for having an opinion, they'd be banning you for breaking the charter. If you want to express your opinion here, you do it without breaking the rules of the charter.

InFront

dlofnep wrote: »

It's my opinion - this thread has received attention from people outside of Islam so don't be suprised if you hear criticism of your religion. Those are my personal thoughts on this whole situation - if you want to ban me for having an opinion that's different to yours, so be it...

It's Islam's fault that a woman is in prison - nothing else. It's Islam's fault that a bunch of nutters are running around the street with Machetes calling for her death. I believe Islam fails as a religion because of this, and various other occurances over the past few years.

That's my opinion. This is a public discussion forum, not a concentration camp. We are entitled to an opinion.

Banned

ScouseMouse

After reading the forum rules, I believe this question is ok.

Can someone please explain to me, how a loved item like a teddy bear called mohammed, which every child will absolutely love, can be classed as offensive to the islamic faith. Little schoolchildren chose the name, which they LIKE, for a cuddly toy which they would probably cry if they lost. If that is not cherished - I dont know what would be. Any other religion would probably be delighted that their children loved there god so much, they did this !

I cannot understand the thinking behind this.

mikemac

Good question.
And just to add it it, how is that that Mohammad is a common name (Cassius Clay is a famous example) but it's different in this case?
Is the teddy a false idol?

AlmightyCushion

Hate to hijack a thread but it's kinda related. Why is it ok for people to call their son Mohammed but not something like a teddy?

Latchy

I think this subject of the teddy is being disscussed in 2 other threads scouse , but yes if anything it just shows the difference in the attitudes of our western culture , compared to places like Sudan and it's muslim population.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

why don't you just look two threads down from here?

ScouseMouse

Yes but after looking at them, I still fail to see how naming something that children love so much, could be offensive. If a child named a teddy after his dad, I am sure the dad would be flattered. Its a compliment. This is my main question, what are the people finding so offensive ?? Its not as if its dragon or a ghost or anything like that.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

what it is isn't the point, it's what was done. Muslims seem to have a thing against idolatry, this counts.. even if it wasn't intended as such.

the protests, the death threats etc have alot more to do with the economic situation these people find themselves in. They're poor, pissed off at the west and unable to find decent work probably.. it's not right what they're doing or asking for, but I'm not surprised at all by it. Very surprised how few people in the west get that though.