Harney survives. O'Keefe jumps.

ballooba

Mary Harney has survived the motion of no confidence. Ned O'Keefe has resigned the FF whip. Effective government majority down to one if you discount the Greens?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1128/politics.html

FF 77
FG 51
Lab 20
Green 6
SF 4
PD 2
IND 6

The_Minister

Why discount the Greens, they voted to retain Harney as Minister for Health?

EDIT: Sorry, I just got what you meant now.
It still means that no one group except FF can sink the gov.

iasscarra

Good man Ned.

flogen

I don't understand why you'd discount the greens from the Government majority, certain opposed to discounting any other party or person.

Anyway - interesting to see O'Keefe jump, that kind of thing is never good news for a political party but then again he has been so much of a thorn it will be seen in FF as not the worst thing to have happened.

What he does next will be interesting and watching FF try to take him out in revenge in the next election will be the same (O'Keeffe is a massive vote-getter and took 1 in 5 first preferences in 2007 as did FF's other Cork East TD Michael Ahern). No surprise to see Harney survive, though.

DoubleJoe7

Ned's an old man, much like Bertie this is more than likely his last term so he doesn't give a **** either way.

Political question "he resigns the party whip" - does this mean he has left Fianna Fail or what?

DadaKopf

I love this quote from Cowen in today's Irish Times:

"We have a Minister for Health who wants to bring reform. It is for this House to represent citizens, not resisters of change," he said.

So... basically, people who want change aren't citizens. People who lick Fianna Fáil's arse and want things to stay the same *are* citizens.

How democratic.

flogen

DadaKopf wrote: »

I love this quote from Cowen in today's Irish Times:

So... basically, people who want change aren't citizens. People who lick Fianna Fáil's arse and want things to stay the same *are* citizens.

How democratic.

Isn't it that he's saying people who want change are citizens (or citizens want change) and that's why Harney is working on HSE reforms?

is_that_so

It's just politics at work. It gave the opposition a chance to "represent" the people and the debate added a bit of spice to what has been a somewhat moribund Dail.

There was never any danger to the government on this. I for one am in the "let Harney finish the job" camp, more so because a replacement would be an even worse nightmare. Aside from Lenihan on the FF side there is no-one with an ounce of wit or balls to take it on.

Nevertheless it was interesting to see how much more of the "cranky" Bertie we are getting these days. I suspect that FF may wake up to that fact it might be in their interest to shunt him to the backbenches sooner. The more he rants the bigger the target he is for the opposition and the more embarrassing he becomes.

Good to see O'Keeffe resign the whip, a real rarity these days, and no surprise that the other windbag McGrath didn't abstain. Independents do tend to be full of their own importance and his "deep reflection" reminded people of his "policies".

flogen

is_that_so wrote: »

Nevertheless it was interesting to see how much more of the "cranky" Bertie we are getting these days. I suspect that FF may wake up to that fact it might be in their interest to shunt him to the backbenches sooner. The more he rants the bigger the target he is for the opposition and the more embarrassing he becomes.

I'm not sure how damaging it's become yet, but I'm sure plenty in FF are keeping careful watch on it.

In the interests of a lively Dáil it's good to see there's still someone there to get under Bertie's skin (Gilmore) - thought we'd lost that particular bit of craic when Joe Higgins lost his seat.

Mr.Micro

Nevertheless it was interesting to see how much more of the "cranky" Bertie we are getting these days.

Good to see O'Keeffe resign the whip, a real rarity these days, and no surprise that the other windbag McGrath didn't abstain. Independents do tend to be full of their own importance and his "deep reflection" reminded people of his "policies".[/QUOTE]

Yes, Bertie loves the limelight but not the substance,like a little dictator who is loathe to be questioned or have to justify his dictats.He should be shunted off into the buffers .As for the independents ,collectively they are just below contempt ,just looking out for the power they wield when in reality they would be lower than backbenchers ruderless and unloved.

kevmy

You have to say it's not good for the government. If you look at the last 2 Dáils no FF TD (with the possible exception of Beverly Flynn) went anywhere close to resigning the whip or standing up to the government. Could it be that Bertie is losing his fabled iron grip over the backbenchers?

I'm of the opinion that the Greens will split from FF before the end of this term. There is an actual opportunity with this Dáil to change government in midstream unlike last time especially if there is a couple of by-elections

ballooba

Three points to clarify:
1) I believe it's a marriage of convenience and I respect the Greens for getting a few policies implemented rather than just staying out on principle. It's debabtable if they would have any more influence in a rainbow government anyway. I believe they would rather be in a rainbow if it was a posssibility. Hence I believe the Greens would jump if there were a chance of an alternative.

2) I believe Ned's main problem is with Bertie. Once Bertie goes Ned will rejoin the fold. When this will be is anybody's guess. I would not think the Fianna Fail organisation in East Cork are too happy about his decision though. He's sitting in a Fianna Fail seat.

3) I don't believe bertie will go quietly. The Mahon Tribunal story is getting clearer by the day. We may have to wait until Mahon issues his findings until Bertie goes. Presuming of course Mahon sees things as most other observers see them. Then that's the topic of another thread of course. I can't believe that thread is so quiet. Mahon is exciting stuff these days. It's a drip drip of info but it's starting to come together nicely.

DoubleJoe7

Ned has never forgiven Bertie for forcing him to resign from the junior ministry. Also, the Cork East Fianna Fáil crowd mightn't be too sad to see him go - especially those close to Michael Ahern

DadaKopf

I think Ned O'Keeffe has an axe to grind about losing out to Michael Kitt for a Junior Ministry yonks ago. So he's decided to act like a thorn in Bertie's side over this. That said, people who know him say he's not being overly cynical about his stance on Hearney and the health issue.

jmayo

O'Keefe is peeved that he had to resign over his conflict of interest, whereas Bertie bafoon stays on even though there are way more questions about his integrity.
It's a pity Calley never showed the same resolve but I suppose he got his reward in the Seanad.

Most FF want Harney to remain and then they can say that they don't have the poisoned chalice aka Angola.
How long can the "we sold out" party continue to remain in government is an interesting question. Long term it will surely get harder if Bertie stays.

Quickly speaking of Mahon,it is interesting how Kilmartin can get so many facts right like the flights information and yet they claim he is fabricating it all ?

mike65

Ned O'Keffe was acting strictly within the typcial parametres of politics - self-interest. There's nothing like a Local Hero. He knows he's not going to be harmed by such a stance.

Mike.

Mr.Micro

mike65 wrote: »

Ned O'Keffe was acting strictly within the typcial parametres of politics - self-interest. There's nothing like a Local Hero. He knows he's not going to be harmed by such a stance.

Mike.

I tend to agree with you Mike ,its self interest and nothing in reality
to do with principle .......revenge as well .If the likes of B. Flynn can cut a deal so can O Keefe.,better to be noticed than be like all the other sheep in the backbenches grazing away .I do tend to think we may never know about the conclusions of the Mahon tribunal as it may be stopped as the heat gets too much for Ahern.

arybvtcw0eolkf

GUys just a thought.

Does anyone even want this portfolio?. Or would it just be thrown onto some poor souls desk?.

IMO she should go, not just for this latest cock-up but for everything else she's done too.

redfacedbear

As a matter of interest;

The vote was 83-73 meaning a total of 156 TDs voted. I know that The Bull (as Ceann Comhairle) and O'Keeffe didn't vote - but who were the other 8 missing Deputies and what reason did they have to miss the vote?

I would find it unusual if any Ministers were absent on official business, given that it was a motion of confidence in a fellow Minister. Even if they were absent would the opposition not withdraw from pairing arrangements like they did in the Bertie confidence motion?

Mr.Micro

redfacedbear wrote: »

As a matter of interest;

The vote was 83-73 meaning a total of 156 TDs voted. I know that The Bull (as Ceann Comhairle) and O'Keeffe didn't vote - but who were the other 8 missing Deputies and what reason did they have to miss the vote?

I would find it unusual if any Ministers were absent on official business, given that it was a motion of confidence in a fellow Minister. Even if they were absent would the opposition not withdraw from pairing arrangements like they did in the Bertie confidence motion?

probably face down in the bar ,could not be sobered up in time .

redfacedbear

Mr.Micro wrote: »

probably face down in the bar ,could not be sobered up in time .

How very cynical of you Mr Micro - not beyond the bounds of possibility though!

ballooba

It would appear the missing deputies were from the opposition benches. I don't think we were ever going to get the motion of no confidence. It forced the government deputies to nail their colours to the mast though. As with the Bertie motion.