Could a drug be the answer?

BigPhil

Okay, very big topic to start off with but it is something that has me equally intrigued & sceptical.

I found this CNN report on a drug called Pagoclone that is being trialled to improve PWS speech fluency (if you look at the video in the link it will tell you how it 'works').

I was wondering has anybody heard about this before and if so then what are your opinions on it? Could this be a possible 'cure' or is it just another gimmick?

Phil

Stephen P

Interesting first topic...

I'd also be a bit sceptical using a drug to help my fluency, maybe its because I'm at a stage in my life where I've accepted my stammer and people around me have accepted it too. I do have difficult stressful days where I suppose a drug would help. But as with most drugs there is the addiction factor. Can't watch that YouTube video here in work but will defo watch it later. Here's some info about Pagoclone on wiki, there's not much in it and mentions there's trials being carried out to improve speech fluency with stammerer's.

I'm open minded but only a little...

Ninja_scrotum

My brother has a stammer, sometimes it's really bad. But whenever he has a few pints, it's gone. So there's another drug that could help!

Basq

Ninja_scrotum wrote: »

My brother has a stammer, sometimes it's really bad. But whenever he has a few pints, it's gone. So there's another drug that could help!

Not everyone.. my stammer gets worse when i drink!

Have to agree with Stephen on this.. i've heard so much about these types of fixes that i take them with a pinch of salt. But interesting enough that it's a drug approach.. that's an new one!

I've read loads about this earpiece that they fit in your ear that basically works on a delay mechanism that plays what you say back into our ear slightly delayed, and apparently it helps.

EDIT: this is the device, SpeechEasy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKGLM1mOFOE

PS - very interesting first post though!

ParkRunner

Like anyone with a stammer I would be sceptical of a quick fix solution..one of the first things a therapist does on a particular course is to offer everyone a tablet (it's really a sweet) saying this will cure your stammer..to date no one has taken it because they accept it will take a lot of work and a whole new way of formulating speech..but I too am open to new ideas

BigPhil

I totally understand that people might be sceptical of this new drug and I openly admit that I too am sceptical of it, but I do have an open mind and I would be willing to give it a try if it ever gets past the trial stage and onto the market.

It’s actually quite interesting because I usually nearly choke to death on my own tongue in job interviews but for my last couple I have taken half a valium and I noticed that my speech fluency improved dramatically. I still didn’t get the job but at least my confidence grew and I was for once proud of myself because I felt I was finally on an even playing field with the competition.

In regards to alcohol, I actually speak more fluently when I’ve had a few beers, but only in certain situations. For example if I am in a crowded pub that is quit noisy then my stutter is barely noticeable, mainly because I have to speak louder. But if I get into a taxi after the pub and have a quiet conversation with the driver then my stutter is more evident, but still less then if I was sober.

BigPhil

basquille wrote:

I've read loads about this earpiece that they fit in your ear that basically works on a delay mechanism that plays what you say back into our ear slightly delayed, and apparently it helps.

I've heard of this also, but the price is ridiculous plus as you see in the video if you take it out you go back to old ways instantly. On the flipside of this it could be very useful in difficult situations like using the phone or in a job interview.

There is a similar device called the DAF/FAF Assistant that can be downloaded onto your PC/laptop and also onto some mobile phones/PDA's. It uses the exact same delay mechanism as the speecheay and it is well worth downloading just to try it out.

Basq

Yep.. great little page on the anti-stuttering devices on Wikipedia here and has the following to say about SpeechEasy:

A study investigated adult stutterers using SpeechEasy hearing aid-style monaural (one ear) anti-stuttering device with DAF and frequency-shifting FAF. The subjects were followed up for up to three years. Of nineteen original subjects, twelve (63%) had excellent initial results, with 1% or less stuttering. Two subjects (11%) experienced no improvement in their speech. On average, the devices reduced stuttering initially about 75%. Eleven of the nineteen subjects purchased the devices. Two of the eleven subjects returned the devices for refunds). The nine subjects who kept the devices were re-evaluated an average of seven months later. Four continued to have excellent speech (1% or less stuttering). One person who had only good results initially now had excellent results (an improvement over six months). One person who had excellent results initially now had only good results. Two others had speech worse than before using the device. On average, after seven months the devices reduced stuttering about 57%. Six subjects returned for a second follow-up, on average eighteen months after purchasing the devices. Two subjects were stuttering about as much as before they purchased the device. The other four subjects were worse. On average, after eighteen months the devices now increased stuttering about 50%. Five subjects were tested at a third follow-up, on average after 30 months using the device. One subject had better speech after 30 months than before using the device (his stuttering dropped from 30% to 17%). Two subjects appear to have speech about the same as before using the device. One subject had moderately worse speech, and one had substantially worse speech (stuttering went from 2% to 9%). Adding the three additional subjects who were tested at the second follow-up but not the third follow-up, this study raises questions of whether five of eight SpeechEasy users had worse stuttering after long-term use of the device, two had speech about the same as before using the device, and one had improved speech.

Inconclusive really.. and for a $4000 price-tag!

BigPhil

I couldn't find any more information on Pagoclone but here is another video about the SpeechEasy.

I can actually really relate to this guy because my stutter was as bad as his at one stage and I also had to call random people as part of my speech therapy (I also remember feeling physically sick doing it ).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuO3DbnQjxE

watna

It's quite interesting to read all your experiences and opinions. My bf has a stammer, it's very mild but comes out when he's nervous or excited about something. i just think it's very endearing! The only time I think it really affects hime badly is job interviews. I was asking him what he thought of drugs and he doesn't believe they would work(for him anyway). He's originally from South Africa and moved to New Zealand when he was 16. He says his stammer improved dramatically, very quickly after the move. His thory is that South Africans speak very harshly, roll they're rs and ms and clip their vowels. Once he started to lose his accent and get more of a kiwi accent his stammer almost stopped. He reckons the accent and the way he was trying to pronounce his words has something to do with why he stammered a lot growing up. He says, for that reason a drug probably wouldn't have helped him.

Also, he never stammers when drunk too, probably because he is so relaxed more than anything!

BigPhil

Hey watna, interesting insight into your boyfriends stammer. It is well known that if a person with a stammer puts on an accent then they can speech much more fluently. For example, my girlfriend's sister and her husband came over to visit us and we went to a very touristy pub for drinks. My girlfriend asked me would I go up to the bar and order and I did but her sister's husband drinks Guinness and I always find words beginning with 'G' to be tough. Anyway, when the bar man came over to me I ordered in an American accent and I didn't stammer at all! Okay I felt like a tit but it was very spur of the moment and I think that I pulled it off quite well

Another thing you mentioned was job interviews. Even the word 'interview' makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand-up! That has to be one of the worst situations a stutter can find themselves in, especially when you get some HR bimbo on the panel throwing curve ball questions like "Where do you see yourself in 5 years?" & "What is your weakness?" In fact I think I will start a new thread on the subject (maybe even with a poll!)

Esel

Did some research on this about 18 months ago. Stuttering has been linked with elevated levels of the neurotransmitter dopamine in certain areas of the brain. Trials with low doses of olanzapine (brand name Zyprexa) have given positive results.

See example google search

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&q=dopamine+olanzapine+stuttering&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

david1two3

BigPhil wrote: »

Okay, very big topic to start off with but it is something that has me equally intrigued & sceptical.

I found this CNN report on a drug called Pagoclone that is being trialled to improve PWS speech fluency (if you look at the video in the link it will tell you how it 'works').

I was wondering has anybody heard about this before and if so then what are your opinions on it? Could this be a possible 'cure' or is it just another gimmick?

Phil

Without reading the rest of the thread it cant be the answer as its not related in any way to the problem, the problem is largely if not totally pschological so if you try fixing something like this sideways it will come flying out of you in a different way as is always the case when you try to do this. I will now read the rest of the thread.


I watched the CNN report and my bottom line is the only thing that talks more than money is those who want to make some and havent quite got there yet.Medicine is largely crooked.

Esel

david1two3 wrote:

I will now read the rest of the thread.

Did you read my post?

david1two3 wrote:

Medicine is largely crooked.

Nice generalisation there! Any other balanced comments?

ParkRunner

For some reason which I cant figure out, when I have a few drinks I can speak perfectly! I dont notice it myself but it has been pointed out to me a few times now. Then when I sober up I go back to having blocks in practically every sentence.
Therefore there must be some drug im sure which could achieve the same results (without having to get hammered to achieve fluency).

"V"

I seen this post on another forum, see what you think.



Experience of Pagoclone
A reader has sent me this report on his experience on Pagoclone:



The drug hasn't completely 'cured' me, but has helped tremendously. What I say to the folks in the clinic is -- am I supposed to sound like the folks on tv? So nice and so polished? Sometimes I do. Sometimes after a caffeine high, I just rip through my speech like an auctioneer.

I'm also getting a little more bold. I talk to people in public who I wouldn't have a year ago. At the pizza place, I now ask to change marinara sauce to garlic. Also, I never suffered from anxiety. I'm very laid-back. I have a rough time saying my name and introducing myself. But it's gotten a little better. I still drag out my first syllable, but it's not as long as it used to be. And I'm able to jump right into whatever I need to say so the listener doesn't think twice about it. Honestly, I feel that maybe the drug is relaxing me a bit more. That it's sort of forcing me to slow down my verbal output. It's strange. And as you said about the placebo effect, it's uncertain about what else is happening after I start speaking more fluently -- confidence builds, words are easier, I start smiling more, etc.

I've had absolutely no side effects from this as all. Then again, this is all just me. Your mileage will, of course, vary. I think once the next phase of this trial is over, I might get off the drug for a bit just to see what happens. I'm curious about the confidence effect. And the fact that I'm maybe thinking about slowing things down a lot more to make it easier. I'm also talking to my son more -- and not stuttering. He might have an effect.

david1two3

esel wrote: »

Did you read my post?

Nice generalisation there! Any other balanced comments?

Perfectly balanced other than to also add that they are in cahoots to the drug and pharmaceutical industry, if you dont know that you may well be using their stuff.

Esel

david1two3 wrote: »

Perfectly balanced other than to also add that they are in cahoots to the drug and pharmaceutical industry, if you dont know that you may well be using their stuff.

I am interested in your theories, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter - when you start making sense.

Bass Cadet

This is an interesting thread, very interesting. I've always thought of stammering as a completely psychological disorder, something like a bad habit which learned over a period of time. I came to this conclusion through my own experience. I was a fluent speaker up until around 7 years old. I was brought to speech therapy to help me pronounce my 'SH' sounds correctly, however I became very conscious of my speech as a result and my stammering started. Ironic or what??!

Anyway, in later life I've had some periods of absolute fluency and some other periods of severe stammering. However, during college I did 'experiment' as they say with some not-so legal drugs. I'm not trying to start a drugs debate here but I found whenever I took ecstacy* that I was fluent, absolutely no problem speaking, in fact I loved to speak. Now I'm not condoning drugs far from it (Drugs r bad hmmm K?!) but I'm sure that there can be a type of medication which can at least control stammering in much the same way without the harmful effects of Class A's

*I've not taken the drug for years and don't plan to, just thought it might interest people to know my experience and perhaps some have had similar?

BC

batalos

I subscribe to the Sheehan iceberg model (where the stuttering and blocking are exacerabated by the emotional and avoidance issues associated with stuttering). Thus, I would not be attracted by any drug based solution as I would see it as avoiding the real issues involved. While a drug may give short term relief I would be sceptical of any long term impact. I also would not be happy to have to rely on a drug to maintain fluency.

Having said that I'm not particularly in favour in the use of drugs (both legal and illegal) in any circumstances, and would be very wary of taking anything unless I really felt it was necessary and knew exactly what it was doing.

The alcohol issue is an interesting one. Drinking alcohol used to increase my fluency when I was younger but it is no longer the case and if anything seems to increase disfluency. From talking to other people, this seems to be a pretty common experience. I would definitely not recommend drinking alcohol as a means of alleviating stuttering; even if it did work it would be at a very high price and would probably result in much more serious problems.

pepsi1234

Hello all,

I would just like to bring to your awareness zyprexa as a treatment of stuttering.

I have been taking zyprexa since 2007.
My speech has improved dramatically. I take a dose of 7.5mg(2,5 at night and 5 in the morning) and is much lower than the usual prescribed dose of 15-20mg.
I went from having a moderate stutter/blocking to very mild. As a matter of fact I recently entered as public speaking contest...and won and will be representing Ireland soon.

The side effects include weight gain and sleepiness. So a healthy eating regime is a must and you have to see how the medication affects you.
It completely removes the anxiety prior to and in speaking situtations. It really is an immense pleasure to come to a word you always blocked on and then to just say it fluently. It's a great feeling of confidence.

For 7.5mg per month, it is extremely expensive around 250 euro. However if you obtain a DPS card you just pay around 90 euro, so worth it in my opinion!

It is a reasonable assumption to make that when you stop the medication the stutter comes back. This has not been my experience. When I stop the medication the stutter becomes worse but it is still very mild. I believe this is due to some emotional issues being resolved by entering speaking situtations I used to avoid.
When I started taking it in 2007, I took it for a few months then stopped and worked as a teacher and never had problems.
I have recently stopped taking it due to need to do all-nighters for exams. I went to mcdonalds yesterday and didnt have any anticipatory anxiety at all and ordering with no problems. I remember pre-taking the medication my heart would be racing while waiting in the queue and I would block when I had to order my food.

I would be happy to answer any questions!

BigPhil

This drug was designed for schizophrenics and people with bi-polar so it is very powerful, plus the side effects include a huge amount of weight gain, sleepiness, constipation, increased appetite, dizziness and in some cases diabetes :eek: Doesn't seem to be worth it to be honest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj0LZZzrcrs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBGG-BD0zF8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvRVGgxATf8

pepsi1234

Interesting youtube videos.
I can identify with the feeling of your stomach feeling like a bottomless pit. However I quickly got used to this and the weight gain is due to overeating, so if you control what you eat you shouldn't encounter problems.

Of course with any medication there are risks. Death is a risk of driving but does that mean one shouldn't drive?

I'm not trying to sell Zyprexa or anything but I don't understand why the affect of stuttering on peoples' lives is often played down, almost as if it's not a 'real' afflection because people who stutter can speak fluently sometimes.
I've even read on another forum that someone wouldn't go to such 'drastic' measures as to take medication (especially one used to treat mental illnesses) for stuttering. I respect their point of view, but i think this is sending out the message that stuttering is not a serious issue.

Stephen P

Stuttering is a serious issue and anyone who stutters knows this. There are other risk-free ways to control a stutter apart from using medication. No matter how bad my stutter gets I wouldn't succumb to medication, but that's just my opinion.

pepsi1234

Hi Stephen,

I'm curious, would you also be against taking anti-depressants if you were depressed?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Alcoholics anonymous resist drugs to help people suffering from alcoholism too, because it doesn't cure the root problem or some bull**** like that. if the effect is a better quality of life for the patient, well obviously it's their choice, but just saying 'i'd never take drugs for it' is a bit silly imo unless it's not a huge problem for you.

Stephen P

pepsi1234 wrote: »

Hi Stephen,

I'm curious, would you also be against taking anti-depressants if you were depressed?

I've never been depressed so I can't answer that question. As I said that's my opinion, I've managed the past 20 years without taking medication and I'm sure I can go the rest of my life without taking it. I attend good support meetings to help me deal with it.

Mordances with wolves wrote: »

Alcoholics anonymous resist drugs to help people suffering from alcoholism too, because it doesn't cure the root problem or some bull**** like that. if the effect is a better quality of life for the patient, well obviously it's their choice, but just saying 'i'd never take drugs for it' is a bit silly imo unless it's not a huge problem for you.

My stutter isn't a huge problem for me.

I'm sure it will benefit some people who stutter greatly and I'm glad it helps you pepsi1234. You might get a better response over in Bio & Med, please let me know if you want me to move the thread, but I've no problem with having the discussion in this forum

sadie9

My point of view is that stuttering is in some ways an anxiety disorder - so therefore anxiety suppressing medication would affect it. Pepsi1234 was this medication prescribed specifically for your stuttering problem? Or were you taking it anyway and happened to notice the effects yourself?

Bass Cadet

stephen p wrote: »

I've never been depressed so I can't answer that question. As I said that's my opinion, I've managed the past 20 years without taking medication and I'm sure I can go the rest of my life without taking it. I attend good support meetings to help me deal with it.



My stutter isn't a huge problem for me.

I'm sure it will benefit some people who stutter greatly and I'm glad it helps you pepsi1234. You might get a better response over in Bio & Med, please let me know if you want me to move the thread, but I've no problem with having the discussion in this forum

I don't think there is any reason to move the thread. I for one am very interested even just to see other peoples opinions about a medication for stuttering

Bass Cadet

Pepsi, I'd also be interested about how you went about getting the medication prescribed. I've always been interested in the possibility of medication for treating stammering. Like others I'd be wary at first but as I mentioned in other threads, in my more 'crazy' days in college and experimenting with (not so legal) drugs I found my speech was fluent and block-free (not condoning their use in any shape or form here). I don't think these drugs are a million miles away from what we're talking about here (without the dangers of the illegal drugs obviously).

I can see how initially it would help and then as you became more confident with your speech and speaking situations that you could stop it altogether?

Did you take part in a trial beforehand or just go to a Doctor and discuss it woith him/her?

Bass Cadet

batalos wrote: »

I subscribe to the Sheehan iceberg model (where the stuttering and blocking are exacerabated by the emotional and avoidance issues associated with stuttering). Thus, I would not be attracted by any drug based solution as I would see it as avoiding the real issues involved. While a drug may give short term relief I would be sceptical of any long term impact. I also would not be happy to have to rely on a drug to maintain fluency.

Having said that I'm not particularly in favour in the use of drugs (both legal and illegal) in any circumstances, and would be very wary of taking anything unless I really felt it was necessary and knew exactly what it was doing.

The alcohol issue is an interesting one. Drinking alcohol used to increase my fluency when I was younger but it is no longer the case and if anything seems to increase disfluency. From talking to other people, this seems to be a pretty common experience. I would definitely not recommend drinking alcohol as a means of alleviating stuttering; even if it did work it would be at a very high price and would probably result in much more serious problems.

I don't think anyone is condoning the use of alcohol or illegal drugs to achieve fluent speech. I think what myself and others are saying is that mentally, the drugs/alcohol alter the mind in such a way that the negative emotions and the panic associated with stuttering is diminished. Side effects are besides the point hear...for the sake of argument.

The fact that a drug can actually achieve fluency for some people speaks volumes about the actual stammer, perhaps that it is first and foremost a psychological condition which has been learned over a period of time like a bad habit, the drug(s) simply alter the mind in such a way to make you forget you actually have a stammer.

That is my experience and to be homest I can't see why in this day and age, a drug couldn't be used safely without side effects to treat such a condition. There are literally hundreds of psychological disorders that are treated safely by prescribed drugs with little or no side effects. Indeed, it could even be used in conjunction with other techniques to achieve fluency and build up confidence to the point that the drugs course could be stopped without relapse...Thats my 2 cents on it anyway!