Concern about the photo thread

Auldloon

Am i the only one who is slightly concerned about the photo thread? Let me be clear here that im not making an attack on anyone and that im only looking for peoples opinions but i gotta say i find some of the more gruesome photos off putting and maybe not suitable for an open forum. Bear in mind that hunting is under pressure and we as hunters have an interest in making sure the general public view us and what we do in as good a light as possible.
Personally i love seeing the gundog pics and bags of game/larger game are always interesting as long as they are presented in an appealing way. Blood and guts dont look good though and thats to me who has hunted for nearly 20 years!
What do ye think? Am i getting soft in my old age(im 35:rolleyes:)

Trojan911

Chuileog wrote: »

Am i getting soft in my old age(im 35:rolleyes:)

Yes.

Mellor

It doesn't paticularly bother me, but I could see how someone (esp a non shooter) would be offended. BUT a non shooter has no reason to open that thread unless they are planning on trolling.
And to be honest I don't agree with altering photos or only posting certain ones to give a false image. Its almost giving in to opposers, even conveys the idea of shame.

Sparks

It's in a hunting forum, it's titled as a hunting photos thread, and you have to select it to see the contents. I've no problem with it, you see more gruesome sights hanging in the window in FX Buckleys off O'Connell street.

johngalway

I think hiding away hunting photos only further damages it by giving off a sense of shame and in a way making hunting out to be something that's only persued in the shadows so to speak. Truth is that most of those "grusome" shots are the most humane ways of culling an animal that there is, the shock and internal damaged caused by them cut out any pain and/or suffering. I think that's the more important point rather than how it looks. There are a lot more "cleaner" ways of killing something but some of those outdated methods would be seriously cruel to the animal.

I do get your point on how it looks to a non shooter. I'd prefer promotion on the humane effect of these shots rather than the visual aspect. Education is better than secrecy.

Jimbo

I gotta say, Im a 'non-hunter' and when I first came across the photo thread I was a bit disgusted. I dont think the argument that youd see worse hanging in a buthers window really stands - many of the pics show foxes etc. with their heads blown open for sport rather than food. Completely diffenrent thing than an animal being slaughtered humanely by a butcher for food. The photo thread really dosent do much for the way the rest of us view hunters

It wasn't me!

Those shots are the most humane way of dispatching those animals though.

Mellor

jimbo78 wrote: »

I gotta say, Im a 'non-hunter' and when I first came across the photo thread I was a bit disgusted. I dont think the argument that youd see worse hanging in a buthers window really stands - many of the pics show foxes etc. with their heads blown open for sport rather than food. Completely diffenrent thing than an animal being slaughtered humanely by a butcher for food. The photo thread really dosent do much for the way the rest of us view hunters

Nobody every said it was for food, a more common reason is vermin control and to protect young wildlife.

What I find most amusing is the way you described a butchers method as humane. If you were to actually find out the way alot of farmed animals are killed, its no more humane. I'm not up to speed on all methods, somebody might be able to fill in the blanks, but I believe pigs have their throats slit and are then hung to let the blood drain out.

spideog7

Personally I don't have a problem with it. As long as the picture is actually of the animal that has been shot i.e. there's no need to go 5x zoom on the actual shot wound !!

Will we get the hardware pictures sticky back ?? Or is it all in one now ??

Jimbo

Mellor wrote: »

Nobody every said it was for food, a more common reason is vermin control and to protect young wildlife.

So do You have a genuine interest interest in protecting young wildlife? Seems like a front to me

Auldloon

Heading off topic here but to answer

jimbo78 wrote: »

So do You have a genuine interest interest in protecting young wildlife? Seems like a front to me

Hunters in many instances are the custodians and protectors of wildlife. For obvious reasons we have an interest in maintaining healthy populations. Excellent article here on just this subject
http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/2007-11/hunters/poole-text.html

Jimbo

I think I'll let it rest for now. Not going to get into an argument about hunting on a hunting forum, the pictures are a bit much though

johngalway

jimbo78 wrote: »

I gotta say, Im a 'non-hunter' and when I first came across the photo thread I was a bit disgusted. I dont think the argument that youd see worse hanging in a buthers window really stands - many of the pics show foxes etc. with their heads blown open for sport rather than food. Completely diffenrent thing than an animal being slaughtered humanely by a butcher for food. The photo thread really dosent do much for the way the rest of us view hunters

Fact of the matter is if the vermin & fox hunters weren't out there doing what we do there'd be a lot less "food" out there to be shot. Fox shooting is not done mainly for sport, it's mainly done for the protection of livestock and game birds. Please update yourself on the activity before you critise it so openly. Also, for the record, you can't eat a fox, so that argument doesn't stand up either.

Trojan911

Mellor wrote: »

but I believe pigs have their throats slit and are then hung to let the blood drain out.

Yes they are, however prior to the cutting they are electrocuted thus rendering them unconscious and sheep are despatched by the same method.

Cattle are also rendered unconscious by shooting a bolt into the head prior to cutting also.

Chickens are, afaik, also electrocuted prior to cutting, although open to correction on this one.

Jimbo

Wouldn't be a career choice for me I think. How do people do it all day?

BryanL

i wouldn't agree with jimbo but i think it's good to hear the argument and opinions of others.thats why i come to a message board, and i'm glad he's preparedd to make an unpopular comment on this a hunting board.
i think it's good to be concious that this is on a public forum.
would also be good i think to post up any articles we may come accross regarding the benifits of hunting and vermin control, like the national geographic one.
Bryan

Jimbo

Well said Bryan. I'm only Joe 'non-hunter' Public and when I come across pictures like that of course I'm going to find them disturbing. Its up to the hunters to explain thier reasons for hunting if they don't want to be percieved in a bad light

kowloon

Trojan911 wrote: »

Yes they are, however prior to the cutting they are electrocuted thus rendering them unconscious and sheep are despatched by the same method.

Cattle are also rendered unconscious by shooting a bolt into the head prior to cutting also.

Chickens are, afaik, also electrocuted prior to cutting, although open to correction on this one.

Seen a mass slaughter method for the chickens that involved dipping into a bath which i presume was the electrocution medium; every once in a while a chicken would manage to keep out of the bath (they were hung by the legs) and would go through processing alive. Not very Humane.

That said, i had to dispatch a particulary nasty cockerel who was attacking people, thought it would be more humane to shoot him in the head than to try break the neck and risk mess it up.
The bastard survived a head shot with an alphamax at point blank range and ran off.

johngalway

Something I've long considered, in addition to written explanations, and maybe as gorey as the hunting photos are photos of the damage done by said predators. Often I've seen many small white egg shells strewn around my farm, there's a wood running along side of it which is frequented by magpies and greycrows. I've had a heavily pregnant go on her back (they get it hard to right themselves again) who had the white fleshy bit of her eye (you know where the sleep collects beside your nose?) pulled out and across her eye by crows. I've had one lamb who got seperated from his ewe get 3/4's of his tounge removed by a greycrow. My dad has had a lamb get an eye pulled out and left hanging by either a greycrow or raven. We've had lambs get their tails removed by foxes, had many lambs with infected bites (they always seem to develop infections which need antibiotic treatment) on the neck, head and back. Recently a ewe got stuck in a drain, on our regular rounds we discovered her the next day dead having been pecked to death by 12 ravens (Yes, they're protected. No, the ewes fate was not caused by bad farming practice, just accidental). I could go on at length but I'd only bore ye. Have heard many game bird stories but since I don't keep them I'll let others explain them.

Tell you a personal story. In a peroid of five years I lost four lambs for various reasons on my own farm, this is a very good mortality rate. One year I looked after my dads farm as he had his hip replaced. I put 32 in lamb ewes into one particular field. When they left that field, all had lambed, but only 17 lambs left with the 32 ewes. Anti's would say this is bad animal husbandry/bad farming practices, BUT I was running dads farm exactly the same as my own, and I had 1 loss that year I believe. This was before I had a gun and I rang up a local fella, we shot 13 foxes within a week within that field and 300 yards around it, no more lambs were lost. The very first night we went in, in the middle of lambing, we spotted five foxes in among the ewes at the exact same time. To a sheep farmer that is :eek:

Predators only do what they're here to do, that's as nature intended. But letting them run amok is only a recipe for disaster. Agree or disagree a properly placed shot is one of the most effective and humane ways of culling these animals, it's not the prettiest but is humane. To protect livestock, give game and other wildlife a chance they do need to be controlled, not exterminated, to a certain degree.

That's why I do what I do.

Jimbo

That water-electrocution is pretty common aparently for chickens. I think it makes them easier to pluck for some reason

Jimbo

johngalway wrote: »

......................................
That's why I do what I do.

Well said. I completely understand it from a farmers point of view, but what I find disturbing is posts like this:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54343187&postcount=312

Wheres the sense in that?

quackquackBOOM

Trojan911 wrote: »

Cattle are also rendered unconscious by shooting a bolt into the head prior to cutting also.
.

i thought this was done with all animals now as the meat became damaged under the shock the meat got tense and the like,im not saying your wrong i just didnt think shocking including cattle probes were allowed under EU law any more as it was damaging the meat.

It wasn't me!

As I understand it, deer have no natural predators in this country and have to be culled in order to maintain stocks of healthy deer and an environment capable of supporting them. If they happen to be delicious into the bargain...

quackquackBOOM

where is the hardware sticky gone????????????????????

johngalway

jimbo78 wrote: »

Well said. I completely understand it from a farmers point of view, but what I find disturbing is posts like this:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54343187&postcount=312

Wheres the sense in that?

Just pictures of partially processed success from the field in my view. I do realise we're coming at it from different ends of view but I don't find that offensive or damaging personally. Animals on their way from being deer to delicious dinner!

Jimbo

The poster must've been hungry, 3 deer!!
My guess is two of them were dumped

tikkamark

Well put john i must actually take pics of the next pheasant nailed by a fox or a sheep with its eyes pecked out by grey crows and magpies i could definitly come up with a lot of pictures and a lot of them certainly are not pretty.I am not a farmer myself but we have land that we let out to a sheep farmer so i keep an eye on them for him when i can so the vermin has to be kept in check,what non shooters dont realise is the amount of vermin around fox numbers have gone through the roof this year.

It wasn't me!

I doubt it. I've known of guys who bought extra freezers after particularly good shoots like that one. Most shooters will make good use of everything they shoot. It's a little insulting to suggest that level of ignorance of someone.

johngalway

jimbo78 wrote: »

The poster must've been hungry, 3 deer!!
My guess is two of them were dumped

Why do you guess that though? A lot of people enjoy venison, would not be a tough job to give it away. Also many people won't shoot many deer in a season, just enough to feed themselves/fill the freezer. Perhaps Sounder has an outlet for it, then again others use it as dog food. I can't say what he did or didn't do with it but from those pics it looks like those deer have already been gutted (sorry I don't hunt deer so forget the proper term) where they were shot, dragged back, possibly a long distance, to a vehicle then moved presumably back to his house for hanging then further preparation. An awful lot of trouble to go to dump two deer wouldn't you agree?

tikkamark

jimbo78 wrote: »

The poster must've been hungry, 3 deer!!
My guess is two of them were dumped

Thats a fairly ignorant assumption to make jimbo without knowing nothing about sounder:mad:You never hear of a freezer??

Jimbo

OK , I withdraw that comment because of your enlightening posts, but I still think its kinda sad to see a family of beautiful deer shot like that

BryanL

but in that thread he also says that the farmer had seen 140 deer in one field:eek::eek:
who the hell is going to let them graze their land for free? i know i wouldn't.
it takes a few deer to fill a freezer. i see your asking about getting a licence to shoot deer. well you'll find you've plenty of friends that'll take fresh,free range venision off your hands.
there is nothing nicer to eat than venision you've taken yourself, oh man they are sweet little steaks
might be worthwhile having a page with cooking photo's:D
Bryan

johngalway

jimbo78 wrote: »

OK , I withdraw that comment because of your enlightening posts, but I still think its kinda sad to see a family of beautiful deer shot like that

It's like It Wasn't Me says, deer don't have any natural predators in Ireland. I know farmers about 7 miles from me would, not joking, buy a rifleman a deer rifle to shoot the deer, legally mind, because of the damage they do. They'll mow a garden of grass for free and damage plantatiosn on their way out. What's a person to do? They're beautiful animals, as are the fox. But when soemthing isn't regulated by nature then man must take on the job. Actually think of it this way, mange is the way nature regulates fox populations. If you'd like to see a mangey fox I do have a photo of one from last year I can email to you or send by PM. I don't know about deer and their diseases but mother nature isn't all too gentle when disease comes into play.

Mellor

jimbo78 wrote: »

So do You have a genuine interest interest in protecting young wildlife? Seems like a front to me

I have no problem with somebody being anti-hunting, that is their choice. But if somesone is anti hunting why look through a hunting thread? Seams a little mad to be.
Also, you are welcome to voice your views, but accusations of "being a front" (which was aimed directly at me for some reason) are not welcome. The truth of the matter, I was letting you no the reason why foxes are hunted, not for sport but for vermin control, btw which has nothing to do with me, so you are have shot and killed at least as many foxes as me.

kerryman12

Having read John's mail above I have to say I agree 100% with same. I come from a farming backround myself and can definately related to what john is saying.

I have seen a sick cow have her eyes pecked out by grey crows.

The goal is to control the numbers not to exterminate. Exterminating fox's is no good for a fox shooter!

Trojan911

quackquackBOOM wrote: »

i thought this was done with all animals now as the meat became damaged under the shock the meat got tense and the like,im not saying your wrong i just didnt think shocking including cattle probes were allowed under EU law any more as it was damaging the meat.

I watched a few fly on the wall documentaries recently i.e. Ramsey when he got his home reared pigs (Trinny & Susannah) slaughtered. That was done by electrcution first.

There was another one I think it was called "Hunt it, Kill it, Eat it on ITV4 or Channel 5 and that showed the chickens en mass being slaughtered first by electrocution. I appreciate these were UK based documentaries however I have watched pigs & cattle being slaughtered here by the same methods bar chickens.

To Jimbo: I also agree with JG's post. The reason I hunt also is to cull vermin on farmers land who are predominately sheep farmers. My buddys brother is a sheep farmer as are most of his neighbours so we are very busy on the run up to, during & after the lambing season. We also look after farmers who rear chickens, pheasants & the likes. They need protection from foxes, magpies, grey crow etc.

Crop farmers ask us to shoot rabbits, pigeons crows ect as they cause damage to the crops.

Farmers work hard & even harder during the lambing season & if there is anything I can do to help out in the protecting of their stock then I will (I've even learned to pull a lamb out during birth :eek:) Messy or what...

EDIT TO ADD: Only last week driving at about 4am I watched a fox running down a country road with a ....... Domestic cat dead in it's mouth. I saw a collar on the cat and he was freshly killed as he was still flopping as the fox ran up over a ditch.

meathstevie

Folks, I think the term "humane kill" needs a bit of defining. It's in no way an indication of an inhumane kill if there's a visible bullet wound in a deer carcass or when it's neck has been slit after the kill in order to allow it to bleed out and make the meat more suitable for eating. I'll agree wholeheartedly with the fact that it doesn't look as sterile or clinical as a high tech slaughter line but that's what's "bushmeat" is about. You harvest and process.

An inhumane kill in my opinion is deliberatly putting an animal through needless suffering before killing it. This is something a hunter and farmer in their right mind will at all costs avoid to do for the simple reason that it's completely unethical on the one side and quite often renders meat inedible on the other side. If the odd exceptional character embarks on such practices there's a legal system that convicts people for cruelty to animals, revokes gunlicences and puts dodgy farmers out of business.

In the meantime the hunter happens to render the people who were generous enough to grant permission to hunt on their land a service by keeping the deer/rabbit/pigeon..etc, etc population to a level that doesn't affect their livelyhood too badly. At the end of the day : everyone involved wins.
The argument of indiscriminate extermination just doesn't stack up.
It would amount to the hunter depriving him/herself of a future quarry.

As for the vermin/predator hunting aspect of the discussion I can only refer to John who hit the nail on the head.

fits

Trojan911 wrote: »

EDIT TO ADD: Only last week driving at about 4am I watched a fox running down a country road with a ....... Domestic cat dead in it's mouth. I saw a collar on the cat and he was freshly killed as he was still flopping as the fox ran up over a ditch.

:eek:Wow... I always wondered if there was any truth in that explanation for a missing cat.

I grew up on a sheep farm and too have witnessed the damage done by grey crows, magpies, foxes and stray dogs. My father used to lay poison for foxes, I'd rather they were shot myself.

It certainly isnt pretty, but nature can have its ugly sides which is something that is often forgotten.

bunny shooter

There is nothing so cruel as nature itself

sounder

jimbo78 wrote: »

The poster must've been hungry, 3 deer!!
My guess is two of them were dumped

well u guessed wrong they were dump alright into other peoples freezers,that what wrong here u don't know jack just guessing.fine to have a veiw on this but when your guessing what the point.looking at rte the other night imported beef from brazil no trace no tags but u buy that.but i will eat deer all year round.and the farmer are happy to see them shot and i am happy to shoot them and eat them. you are a treehugger i am a burger lover,,,,,,,cheer sounder p.s bamdi said hi. also i have two big freezers and a big cooler to store them for a week before cutting.bye

Jimbo

Ok. Firstly I would like to point out to sounder that I'm far from a tree hugger, Im an avid meat eater like you, have a gas-guzzling car and I despise the green party. Secondly, I was not intentionally directing my comments to any particular person, just generally commenting.
I picked your post, sounder, as an example of what I found disturbing about the photo thread. I know I shouldn't guess what you did with those carcasses, but believe me, Im only saying what other non-hunters are thinking when they come across pictures like that. Hunters are a minority, and if you posted pictures like that up in a popular forum like say, After Hours, there would be an outrage. My point is that most people don't understand hunting or the reasons behind it and a debate like this can only be good for your sport.
I saw a comment above asking why am I posting in a hunting forum if I have a problem with hunting. Believe me, I wouldn't usually post in this forum but someome (not me) started this thread voicing their concerns about posting graphic photos of hunt kills, I was just adding my point of view as a non-hunter.
Where on boards are you supposed to have a debate like this anyway? I seem to be heavily out-numbered in this forum.

Finally I would like to say that I regret if I caused offence with my ignorance of the subject, I have to say I understand it alot better than I did, but fundementally I do still disagree with it.

It wasn't me!

What do you disagree with? You've been shown how and why it's a necessary thing and is responsible for the stocks and health of animals.

Jimbo

Mainly because it's classified as a 'sport'. Apart from doing it for the valid practical reasons which ye have ponted out, I just fail to see the fun in it. I just find it difficult to comprehend how it has evolved into a pastime. Is it just a compulsion thats still inside us since the stone age that you need to satisfy?

It wasn't me!

While it's more sophisticated than that, it's rooted in it I guess. Just nature to be honest, can't argue with that.

Mac Tire

i might be coming in to this discussion a bit late...but i just thought id say this...i dont like dark chocolate or cheese, so i dont eat it.... i dont like golf or cricket....so i dont watch it...i can see where you are coming from with the visual aspect, but then it is a hunting page and there is a warning on content..Steaks looks lovely in supermarket wrappers, but it used to stand in the middle of a field watching us scurry around!!! C'est la vie..

Mellor

jimbo78 wrote:

Mainly because it's classified as a 'sport'. Apart from doing it for the valid practical reasons which ye have ponted out, I just fail to see the fun in it. I just find it difficult to comprehend how it has evolved into a pastime. Is it just a compulsion thats still inside us since the stone age that you need to satisfy or what?

Sports shooting and hunting are too different things really. How do you feel about fishing?

jimbo78 wrote:

I was not intentionally directing my comments to any particular person

I beg to differ, you comment below looks to be directed at me, even accussing me of putting on a front.

jimbo78 wrote:

Mellor wrote:

Nobody every said it was for food, a more common reason is vermin control and to protect young wildlife.

So do You have a genuine interest interest in protecting young wildlife? Seems like a front to me

As I already said I was mearly pointing out the error in your thought that foxes were shot for food. You still disputed this and accused me of having a front on!! Other posts on the matter have proved foxes are shot completely for protection of young.

I'm all for debate, but a bit of mutual respect is also needed. I don't paticularly care for your accussations, and as I have already pointed out, I have shot the same number of foxes as you sir.

Jimbo

It might have seemed to be directed at you, but it wasnt. If you read through the thread, you aren't the only one who used that excuse. I just quoted you as an example. I would suggest not taking things so personally. If you haven't noticed this 'debate' is me versus the entire hunting forum it seems. My views are pretty common so don't be so shocked/offended by them. This is my last post on this thread because I don't think its a fair debate considering where it is held.

Auldloon

OK its pretty clear that im in the minority as a hunter who finds some of the photos posted in poor taste. That was the intention of this thread to gauge the feelings of the other folk who use this forum but it seems to have wandered into all sort of other areas. The ethics of hunting is in my opinion a discussion for another thread. Could i respectfully suggest we get back to my original question or perhaps its time to put this one to bed.

sounder

its the last time i will put up photo's as there is warning about it,i did not just show a dead fox to piss lads off.good marksmanship i say.and good vermin control.

Mellor

I didn't take it personally, but I didn't care for the attitude and assumptions.
Im not shocked by your views, believe it or not most people I know don't hunt, although not all would have an opinion on it either way.
And its not a debate, all you have done is make false assumptions and guesses. A debate is dicusssion containing valid points based on fact.

Its not the right thread for it, or maybe not even the right forum, you are of course welcome to start a thread on the ethics of hunting on any suitable forum. As long as its a proper debate with valid points i'll be more than happy to contribute and take in your points.
But comments such as suggesting that two out of three deer were discarded has no place in a discussion of the ethics of hunting

bunny shooter

If God didn't want us to eat meat he wouldn't have made it so nice