Deer Slaughter

juuge

A work colleague of mine was out walking near a forest in west Wicklow last weekend when he became aware of deer howling and human voices coming from within the forest. As he approached he could clearly hear what sounded like a deer in distress, some dogs barking and then a gunshot.
Close to the forest perimeter he noticed a number of vehicles parked, which included a commercial van. He approached a man who was standing next to one of the vehicles and asked if there was shooting taking place within the forest as he was planning to walk through the woods as he usually does at weekends. He said no there was no shooting going on, though clearly my colleague could hear shots as he approached. Another
man quickly appeared and told him that they were exercising dogs and the commotion was as a result of the dogs chasing a fox. Down the road he noticed another van parked in a spot not usually occupied by a vehicle, the van was rocking as if there was movement within the vehicle. Standing at this van was a young man with what appeared to be a greyhound on a leash and as my friend approached, the man quickly rapped on the van as if to warn the occupants. He continued on further down the road and noticed two more cars also parked in unusual spots. What he discovered was that the men were surrounding the forest, which is a relatively new plantation and releasing the dogs which in turn were hunting out the deer, hence the howling he had heard earlier.
The men would then shoot the deer as they were being attacked by the dogs. I can only assume the animals were then being butchered inside the van. I subsequently found out later that the butchering takes place there and then to remove as much evidence as possible and also to ‘blood’ the dogs for future hunts.
He reported the incident to the Gardai.
What should we do with these scum-bags??

macshadow

I'd happily turn vigilante if i knew the identity of an individual involved in something like that. If caught they will get a slap on the wrist.

fits

I'm pretty sure that one of my lurchers was bred with this sort of thing in mind.

You need a license to hunt deer... however I cant really see the gardai cracking down on this carry on.

Alun

I've seen evidence of this too, up on the Sally Gap behind Lugalla at a popular walkers carpark. A couple of female deer that had obviously just been butchered on the spot and the carcasses just dumped by the side of the road, and what was most sad was a young fawn just lying dead beside them, probably starved to death. I reported it to the Park Warden, but don't know if it was any use.

I also regularly come across 'hunters' on my walks. Some are probably kosher, usually the ones who stop to have a chat, whereas others have a decidedly dodgy air about them. No real way of knowing one way or another I guess.

macshadow

fits wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that one of my lurchers was bred with this sort of thing in mind.

You need a license to hunt deer... however I cant really see the gardai cracking down on this carry on.

How come some lurchers have a smooth coat like a greyhound and some have a longer coat,a bit like a wolfhound? are there two different types?
I always thought they were very timid, didn't think they would go for big prey.

fits

macshadow wrote: »

How come some lurchers have a smooth coat like a greyhound and some have a longer coat,a bit like a wolfhound? are there two different types?
I always thought they were very timid, didn't think they would go for big prey.

Lurcher is just a word for a greyhound cross really. Theres an infinite number of lurcher types.

Mine is quite big and quite chunky and strong, but also very fast and nimble, and he has an unfortunate propensity for chasing deer . He would be big enough to take a deer down if he so desired but he doesnt seem to have the kill instinct thankfully, so the deer continue on their way. Thats probably why he was dumped for me to find.

I never would have thought of this, but someone stopped my OH recently and said that was what he was bred for, and that they chase the deer up hills?

He has neither a smooth coat nor a wire-haired coat ( like a wolfhound would) but its more like the coat of a collie or a long haired saluki.

Vegeta

Ok as a hunter I would implore you to follow this up as much as possible and get these scum arrested. Obviously with registration numbers etc this should be possible

Assholes like them destroy an already unpopular activity

Most forestry in Ireland is owned by Coillte and it is illegal to hunt on their lands unless they give you permission, which is very tough to get so I doubt they had it.

I genuinely hope they get prosecuted

The "butchering" as you call it takes place as soon as possible after the animal is killed for a number of reasons. Mainly, to keep the quality of the meat, it cools quicker and the organs spoil the meat after a very short period. A dead deer weighs a lot and it is easier to carry them that way. Saying that remains are meant to be buried or brought to a facility capable of dealing with them.

Just dumping a beautiful delicious animal like that is disgusting, they deserve better treatment than that

Let us know how this pans out

lightening

Fantastic looking dog fits.

macshadow

fits, he's gorgeous looking. I love a dog thats a bit hyper, you can wind them up and get good craic out of them. I just had a quick look on the net and i think i got the lurcher mixed up with a whippet.

fits

This dog definitely isnt hyper... he's quite the enigmatic character. But my... can he run, and turns on a sixpence.

I also have a whippet cross who's more playful, but I wouldnt really call him hyper either.

Will I get the mods to split this thread? as I dont want to take away from the Original post.

macshadow

Vegeta, it's not something i could do myself, thats not to say it's wrong but at least with coillte policy it's one shot one hit and the hunters are well trained. I hope the people involved get what they deserve.

macshadow

fits wrote: »

This dog definitely isnt hyper... he's quite the enigmatic character. But my... can he run, and turns on a sixpence.

I also have a whippet cross who's more playful, but I wouldnt really call him hyper either.

Will I get the mods to split this thread? as I dont want to take away from the Original post.

I don't have a whippet or lurcher,when i said hyper i suppose i really ment playful.
I have a red setter(mac)and collie x(shadow) i must try put up some photos i'm a real thicko when it comes to stuff like that.

Sorry OP thread back on topic.:)

Vegeta

macshadow wrote: »

Vegeta, it's not something i could do myself, thats not to say it's wrong but at least with coillte policy it's one shot one hit and the hunters are well trained. I hope the people involved get what they deserve.

Exactly my point if they are going to be hunted let it be with experience and care. Most hunters (bar the likes of scum mentioned above) want as swift and humane death as possible for a lot of reasons. Less pain to the animal, less work for the hunter, better tasting meat

The meat from the deer described above would probably be awful anyway due to the hormones pumping through it as it was being chased by the dogs.

I wouldn't even call that hunting really, its more like poaching

Let us know if the gardai catch these guys

Alun

Vegeta wrote: »

The "butchering" as you call it takes place as soon as possible after the animal is killed for a number of reasons. Mainly, to keep the quality of the meat, it cools quicker and the organs spoil the meat after a very short period. A dead deer weighs a lot and it is easier to carry them that way. Saying that remains are meant to be buried or brought to a facility capable of dealing with them.

I'm curious .. are you saying that this happens even with legitimate hunting?

If so, I'm a little puzzled as to how this is allowed for meat entering the human food chain. It wouldn't be allowed, for example, for a farmer to shoot his beef cattle in the field, partially butcher them, dump them in the back of a van and take them to the abattoir, so why should it be allowed for venison? I'd have thought EU abattoir regulations would apply equally to both.

peasant

Alun wrote: »

If so, I'm a little puzzled as to how this is allowed for meat entering the human food chain. It wouldn't be allowed, for example, for a farmer to shoot his beef cattle in the field, partially butcher them, dump them in the back of a van and take them to the abattoir, so why should it be allowed for venison? I'd have thought EU abattoir regulations would apply equally to both.

You could hardly catch the deer alive and bring it to a licensed slaughterhouse.

CJhaughey

It is illegal for a butcher to use his premises for the purposes of butchering Deer.
AFAIK it is because presumably the wild meat could contaminate the farmed meat.

Alun

peasant wrote: »

You could hardly catch the deer alive and bring it to a licensed slaughterhouse.

I never suggested you could :rolleyes: You could however, shoot it, and bring it to one within a reasonable amount of time.

I'm just curious as to why two sources of meat, both destined for human consumption could have two such wildly differing standards of hygiene associated with them that's all. Surely partially butchering an animal on the ground, littered with animal faeces and other bacteria can't be considered hygienic, can it?

fits

Alun wrote: »

I'm just curious as to why two sources of meat, both destined for human consumption could have two such wildly differing standards of hygiene associated with them that's all. Surely partially butchering an animal on the ground, littered with animal faeces and other bacteria can't be considered hygienic, can it?

Doing it like this may even be cleaner than in the slaughterhouse, where there would be a high concentration of animals in one space.

A lot of people shoot rabbits and pheasants for their dinner, so why not deer? (I'm asking from the point of view of hygiene)

I would be interested to know how its done.

peasant

Alun wrote: »

I never suggested you could :rolleyes: You could however, shoot it, and bring it to one within a reasonable amount of time.

I'm no expert or hunter either ...but I'd say the main issue is the guts of the dead deer. You don't want anything like the gall bladder / stomach / intestine to rupture and spill and spoil the meat during storage or transport ...so it has to come out on the spot.

Vegeta

I don't want to wander too far off topic and this is a pretty gruesome subject for animal lovers to discuss but in the interest of education here goes

As said earlier it is common practice to remove all internal organs etc within minutes of death, obviously to keep something fresh it needs to be cooled to prevent bacteria from breeding, the quickest way to cool it down is remove all the internal organs (obviously throwing it in a fridge in the middle of no where isn't an option). Special care has to be taken removing the organs as they can spoil the meet if removed badly, as peasant said a lot of the organs can spoil the meat.

So it is done really to improve the meat quality. It has the added bonus of making the animal easier to carry/transport as it is now lighter

I'm sure its not the most hygenic but venison like that is probably never sold to the public. Usually the hunter himself will eat it. Only the chest cavity (rib cage to anus usually) is open and generally facing up so no dirt ever gets in there. The whole animal is covered in hair and skin so no dirt ever touches the meat either.

Generally (have never seen it or heard of it being done) the animal is not cut into pieces (what we would call butchering) on site, just the organs removed.

Alun

Vegeta wrote: »

Generally (have never seen it or heard of it being done) the animal is not cut into pieces (what we would call butchering) on site, just the organs removed.

OK, I guess that's not unreasonable then. I can see how you'd want to reduce the temperature of the carcass for transportation and reduce the chance of infection from burst internal organs as well.

What I saw on the occasion I described though was definitely butchering. At a guess, I think the only bits that were taken were the haunches, the saddle and the shoulders. All the rest .. internal organs, head, legs and the ribcage were just left scattered by the roadside. At a guess, looking at the roughness of some of the cuts, especially the way the ribcage had been cut, I wouldn't be surprised if a chainsaw had been involved. It was a pretty horrible sight, and on a main tourist thoroughfare too.

Also, another question, I don't really remember what time of the year this was, but there was a really small fawn lying dead beside the carcasses which upset me. Would the usual shooting season for deer be such that this would not happen, i.e. such that any young animals were already capable of surviving independently of their mothers?

fits

Alun wrote: »

Also, another question, I don't really remember what time of the year this was, but there was a really small fawn lying dead beside the carcasses which upset me. Would the usual shooting season for deer be such that this would not happen, i.e. such that any young animals were already capable of surviving independently of their mothers?

I can make a stab at that one. The season starts on November 1st, whereas the fawns would be born in Springtime and should be weaned by the time hunting season starts. (There is a reason why they fix the hunting season)

Alun

fits wrote: »

I can make a stab at that one. The season starts on November 1st, whereas the fawns would be born in Springtime and should be weaned by the time hunting season starts. (There is a reason why they fix the hunting season)

Any idea when it ends? I've gone through my GPS tracks of the walks I've done in that area (yes, I know), and the two candidates are mid February or mid July. February would be too soon for fawns to be born, I'd guess, so that'd leave July, and I'd be pretty sure that would be outside of the official season. In fact, come to think of it, I'd be pretty sure it was then, because I remember being alerted to the fact by the smell, i.e. it would have been warm weather.

fits

It ends at the end of February afaik, but since the type of thing you saw was hardly legal, I'd doubt if the perpetrators pay much attention to the season.

Horrible to leave a fawn like that:(

fits

Another thing that is possible is that the deer was injured by a car... and someone butchered the carcass.

Alun

fits wrote: »

Another thing that is possible is that the deer was injured by a car... and someone butchered the carcass.

I doubt it, there were (at least) two there.

fits

Nice... I used to live very near there and we used to have a lot of unsavoury visitors. Not to mind it being a favourite spot to burn out stolen cars and dump bodies.

Its so beautiful around there, but I dont miss all that crap.

juuge

I can see this thread going off in all directions and understandably so, however I intend to go walking in that area over the weekend and I would really appreciate some advice as to how I should handle it if by chance I come across this type of thing. (within the law that is)

fits

Call the gardai immediately... nothing else.

CJhaughey

If you have the number of the local wildlife ranger that would also be a good start.
Keep all numbers of vehicles etc as well.

Alun

WMNP Headquarters

Telephone: 0404-45800
Duty Ranger: 087-9803899

Roundwood Gardai

01-2818142