Recessed lights - LED bulbs?

itsmine

Our new holiday home build (currently undergoing second fix plumbing and electrical) has 16 downlighters in the kitchen/dining room. In an effort to curb energy usage somewhat, the electrician has suggested that we put LED bulbs into the downlighters instead of standard downlighter bulbs. Makes sense, as they only use a fraction of the energy to run than the standard bulbs.
Trouble is, the LED bulbs are €10 each.
Also, I haven't seen them in operation, so I don't know what kind of light they put out.
Anyone got any experience of them/advice?
Cheers..

fishdog

Fo a lighting effect the best type of recessed lamp is a 12v halogen downlighter type. 220v downlighters are not very good, light quality is average, lamp life is short, effiency is less than the 12volt equivelent.

LEDs are very energy efficient, but the quality of light from them is nothing like as good (check it out yourself). The wireing for them will also be different, so if you dont like what you get tough!



This is an impotant decision.

Did your electrician discuss the fact that 1 transformer can power many LED lamps and the norm is 1 transformer per 12v downlighter?? This this should offset the price of LED lamps a bit!!


If you want to save money Philips now do a 35watt 12v downlighter lamp that gives off the same amount of light as a 50watt 12v downlighter lamp. They are a little more expensive to buy, but give out the same high quality light.

pan

Also bare in mind

- LED bulbs @ €10 might come down in price as they become more popular(next few yrs).
- LED bulbs should inprove in quality in next few yrs, as they are a reasably new technology for household lighting.

itsmine

fishdog wrote: »

LEDs are very energy efficient, but the quality of light from them is nothing like as good (check it out yourself). The wireing for them will also be different, so if you dont like what you get tough!

Electrician said that it's the same light housing etc, just a different 'bulb' - LEDs instead of halogen. He also said that the light is even brighter and whiter. Is he mistaken?

fishdog wrote: »

If you want to save money Philips now do a 35watt 12v downlighter lamp that gives off the same amount of light as a 50watt 12v downlighter lamp. They are a little more expensive to buy, but give out the same high quality light.

That sounds like an alternative alright. I'll talk to him again and check out what the story is re: transformers.. or whether he was going to put in 220v downlighters.

sydthebeat

Another issue to consider is the build up of heat from high wattage bulbs.... this has to be looked at in terms of proper housing for the bulbs and fire proofing around them...

personally i would go with 3 watt LED lights housed in a proprietary fitting....

joolsveer

Forgive me if this is a bit off topic but I bought some LED GU10 bulbs to replace 50 watt halogen bulbs and I had to revert to the halogens because of the low light output. They are rated at 1.2 watts and are supposed to last up to 30,000 hours but are just not as bright.

I bought them in B&Q.

Mellor

They were possibly not connected right, a different transformer may of been required. Even though tyhe fitting is the same, it might not of just been a case of swapping bulbs, unlike with CFL swapped for an incandescant in a bayonet fitting.

LEDs when done right are better than halogens, they last far longer and they used far less energy. Its not right to say that LEDs aren't as bright as it depends on the LED, they start at very small output tiny little bulbs like those found in electronic goods, right up to the very high output of LED bulbs found in torchs, these bulbs used in clusters are suitable for domestic lighting

ircoha

Maybe move to electrical.

OP: I would not go down the recessed lighting route at all, I have 39 of them so I think I can comment thereon.
IMhO, perforating the ceiling with a recessed light fitting is a retrograde step and very difficult to reverse.

Recessed lighting makes for difficult insulating, mitigates against air-tightness, makes fireproofing more difficult and adds an un-necessary layer of complexity and expense to what can be more easily achieved with the more traditional, and soon to be banned incandie bulb.
Externally mounted fittings will be much easier to replace once the technology gets there with more efficient fittings.

I am not going to give you the <16 by 50 is 800 watts: that is equiv to "Doh" tons of carbon .... > rant

Go for lighting for purpose by location.
Holiday home: occasional lighting, scented candles, good company and fine wines

CJhaughey

A better option is to fit Megaman CFL GU10 fittings. They are round €19 complete.
The light is much better than LEDs and only 9w per bulb.
I have lots of different types of LED and CFL in my house and the Megaman are the best by far.

fishdog

Maybe move to electrical.

Yes

perforating the ceiling with a recessed light fitting is a retrograde step and very difficult to reverse

There is a ertain logic in what you are saying. I wired a house for a friend with over 150 downlighters!!! It was crazy, but he was very insistant. (The customer is king!) Each room looks like a runway!

However when used correctly, they can be very effective.

Recessed lighting makes for difficult insulating, mitigates against air-tightness, makes fireproofing more difficult

Not when fitted downstairs in a 2 story house.

adds an un-necessary layer of complexity

If this is complex for your electrician, find another one!! It is a simple task for a proffessional.

Electrician said that it's the same light housing etc, just a different 'bulb' - LEDs instead of halogen. He also said that the light is even brighter and whiter. Is he mistaken?

It is the same light housing. However a typical downlighter transformer requires a minimum load to function properly, generally 20VA (about 20watts). A typical LED lamp will consume about 1.5watts. Therefore to make the system operate properly you would need to connect at least 19 LED lamps to a single transformer to make it function properly. However normally with standard lamps the best method is one transformer per fitting. This means that if you are not happy with the light quality (I think you wont) you can not simply change the lamps (I am assuming both systems are 12volt).


Why not ask to see one connected???

I have seen many LED lights and I am very impressed with them for certain applications. However I have never seen them produce a whiter light than a halogen.

What room are they lighting??

fishdog

CJhaughey wrote: »

A better option is to fit Megaman CFL GU10 fittings. They are round €19 complete.
The light is much better than LEDs and only 9w per bulb.
I have lots of different types of LED and CFL in my house and the Megaman are the best by far.

Good idea, but you can not use a dimmer with these.

It is very energy efficient, but a harsh light.

This may be suitable, but it depends on the application.

If it is a kitchen or sitting/dining room I would use 12volt halogen only, possibly 20watt.

ardara1

I've been trying my damndest to cut our energy use-
Installed soft coat low e glazing
Installed gas condensing boiler
drylined solid walls
pumped cavity walls
insulated loft
sealed up drafts
INSTALLED EE LIGHTING where I could - then
Had 9 GU10's in recesses in kitched - bought LED equivalent in B&Q 1.5 w @ €13 a pair and installed them on afternoon last week.
WIfe arrived home that evening - and threated to leave if they weren't change back. She said it looked like a morgue! - Cold blue light.
Great idea - but a step too far.
It's back to the same old question - how far do we go with the energy efficency thing before our behaviour makes a mess of the technology we put in there?

fishdog

She said it looked like a morgue! - Cold blue light.

This is what I mean by the quality of the light.


If however you were using this along the side passage of your house Im sure you would both be happy.

Andrea B.

A cautionary note to those buying and installing recessed lights. I have recently come across a job where a recessed light was recessed in to a joist by a registered contractor, which led to a fire, once the insulation was packed in around it. The insulators didn't fit the flowerpot over it as they couldn't due to the joist:rolleyes:.

Personally I would recommend the fitting of hoods or the enclosed fitting, which is regulation in the UK at present.

smashey

Moved to the shiny new electric forum.

itsmine

fishdog wrote: »

I have seen many LED lights and I am very impressed with them for certain applications. However I have never seen them produce a whiter light than a halogen.

What room are they lighting??

They're for a kitchen & dining room (L-shaped room) with kitchen in the sticky-out bit of the L which has a window and will have lots of natural light. No window in the dining area which looks a bit dark.

I would like to be able to dim them, particuarly in the dining area. Does that rule out LEDs? (Which sound a bit complicated from the various responses), plus I don't want a bluey light.

On balance, which bulbs/fittings should I go for?

CJhaughey

fishdog wrote: »

Good idea, but you can not use a dimmer with these.

It is very energy efficient, but a harsh light.

This may be suitable, but it depends on the application.

If it is a kitchen or sitting/dining room I would use 12volt halogen only, possibly 20watt.

If you want dimmable get Megaman GU10 DorS (Dim or Switch)these are dimmable without a dimmer switch, they use the switch to dim, ie switch on, and each successive switch brings the light level down from 100-66-33-0% very good system and saves having a €50 dimmer switch.
Light is not harsh for me, they are around 3000K I believe so warm white.
I have installed a range of LEDS which range from 2700k up to 4000k the 4000k are very blue but 2700-3000k are warm and suitable for domestic settings.
You can get LEDs that give a nice warm white light, but they are expensive and don't give the same light intensity as a Halogen.
That said you really need to look at where you need light, I have 22 installed GU10 fittings and really only need the halogens in about 4 of the fittings over the sink and cooking area and dining area, the rest are perfectly serviceable with the CFL or LED type of lamp.

2 stroke

Some people on here are comparing 1.2 watt led with 50 watt halogen. 1.2 watt led are approx equivalent to 20 watt halogen. I have bought some 2.5watt mains voltage led and am very happy with them. I don't see the sense of the 12 volt transformer ones, other than they could be run directly from a solar storage system without invertors or thansformers.

fishdog

I don't see the sense of the 12 volt transformer ones, other than they could be run directly from a solar storage system without invertors or thansformers.

12 downlighters lamps produce about 40% more light than 220volt downlighter lamps for the same energy consumption. From experience I have found that the 12volt lamps last alot longer than the 220volt ones (GU10). They also have a better quality light.

A solar system to power LED lights will take a good 100 years to pay for its self! They use very little power as you point out. Panles are expensive, batteries would be required (you generally need the lights when the sun goes in), and space etc. Not really worth it.

If you want dimmable get Megaman GU10 DorS

Sorry I dont know what you mean. Are you saying this will dim CFL's?

You can get LEDs that give a nice warm white light, but they are expensive and don't give the same light intensity as a Halogen.

Every time I look at LED lights they are improving, but like you say they are expensive and IMO not worth it for this application.

They're for a kitchen & dining room

If it was me and I wanted downlighters (recessed lighting) I would not go for LEDs. I would go for 12volt halogens in either 20, 35 or 50watt and I would have them on a dimmer so that I could create a nice atmosphere.

But I wouldnt go for downlighters, in the kitchen I would go over counter lighting. This would comprise of T5 striplights fitted under the presses that are over the countertop. T5's give out alot of light, they are very energy efficient and they look cool if hidden so that you can not see the fitting, just the light comming from it.

If I needed more light in that area I would uplight the ceiling with the same switched seperatley, but installed on top of the presses, this would illuminate the ceiling and give a nice reflected light.

Over the dining table 2 or 3 very slim small pendants hanging low over the table controlled by a dimmer switch can be very effective.

If additional lighting is needed, I would have a picture light or 2.

Thats just me! It is a personal thing. I worked for a very talented lighting designer (from Bob Bushells) for a while and I was amazed the difference good lighting can make.

I have just seen and installed so many downlighters now I am sick of them. I that in the near future people will see a house full of downlighters as very ninties!! It will date many houses.

In a nutshell, if in doubt dont go for LED's.

Stoner

CJhaughey wrote: »

If you want dimmable get Megaman GU10 DorS (Dim or Switch)these are dimmable without a dimmer switch, they use the switch to dim, ie switch on, and each successive switch brings the light level down from 100-66-33-0% very good system and saves having a €50 dimmer switch.
Light is not harsh for me, they are around 3000K I believe so warm white.

yep I agree, I've yet to see really good super birght LEDs at a reasonable price, I'm not saying that dont exist, they are just very expensive and are better then the LED lamps people are talking about only paying 7 - 8 Euro for here, i.e really good LED lamps are about €35, please correct me if I'm wrong, they are also going up in wattage, 1.2W, 3W and now 6Watt. So a 6W LED roughly compares to a 9w CFL, the gap is closing, these better quality LEDS need more juice etc.
Like I said correct me if I'm wrong, but I think thick that the CFLs are still the best value.

something like this

http://www.loweleds.com/watt-lamp-with-downlighter-driver-p-145.html

The megaman lamp is a warm colour and a decent lamp IMO, its biggest downfall is the start up time.

CJhaughey

fishdog wrote: »

Sorry I dont know what you mean. Are you saying this will dim CFL's?

http://www.megaman.cc/global/technology/dors.php

thatsme

I am strongly considering installing recessed lighting downstairs and upstairs on the landing and in the bathroom, I heard a discussion today on radio where Duncan Stewart advised people against recessed lighting citing it as a fire hazard! and said that consideration should be give to installing recessed lighting that uses LED bulbs if you really want to go this route. Can dimmer switches be used with LED's? I think the visual aspect of Recessed lighting is excellent - if they are installed correctly and not like a runway! I am not sure what to do now particularly as the traditional spot lights will be outlawed by this time next year
Can anyone give me any advice?
Thanks for your help

10-10-20

I just heard that discussion, and yes I agree - if the downlighters are incorrectly installed without poper clearance from combustibles they will pose a problem. Add to that the preferation in the ceiling which acts as hot air vent... they just aren't a great design!
In relation to LED's, as he said there is now an LED solution which can be dimmed, but I didn't catch the address.
One thing is for sure, you'll be looking at €30 per lamp fitting!

sunnysoutheast

All

I've just replaced most of the 50w GU10 halogens in our bedrooms with 3W LED bulbs. I got these from City Electrical Factors for c. €10 each - brand is "LITETRON". The light is nowhere near as bright as the halogens but I was always concerned about the amount of heat the latter gave out - with the LEDs you can insulate much better. The light is also quite "blue", but I added a colour change bulb in the corner of each room that improves the perceived quality as it cycles round - the kids love those BTW. With additional task lighting for reading they're fine.

I also borrowed a couple of the "high output" LEDs for c. €25 each. My original plan was to have a 1/2 of these in each room with the standard LEDs elsewhere but I don't think they're worth the price premium for the brighter light so they went back. Note that these were about 2mm longer than a standard GU10 so they didn't fit the fittings with clips.

We plan on using our stockpile of c. 35 halogens downstairs until they run out (treating them as a heat source!) - at which time we'll probably replace them with CFLs. They don't seem to be blowing too often (1 only in three months) as I think it's their use in the ceiling with a cold attic above which kills them.

"Recessed lighting" as such isn't a fire hazard if done properly, i.e. with the halogen bulbs properly ventilated. If not though, they can cause a fire in the first place and provide a fire path throught the ceiling - you also end up with a cold, uninsulated patch on the ceiling and draughts. You can get "intumescent" fittings which are enclosed and fill with foam, sealing the hole, in a fire or use LEDs, which generate negligible heat and allow you to maintain your insulation envelope.

SSE

eoghan.geraghty

With regard to recessed lights causing fires, I have come across jobs where the sparks failed to hoover wood chips and shavings from around the fitting, sounds obvious but its just laziness not to do it.
To start a fire with a light bulb you would need some form of kindling rather than the joist.
Obviously using the hood is much better, but if the customer won't pay for it then it won't be fitted.
As regards dimming low energy lights, use the cfl/megaman type gu10 in the centre of the room on one switch with less bright leds around the perimeter on a seperate switch.
This layout will give you 3 levels of light in your room, I find it enough as have the customers I've recommended it to.

Home4Life

a chairde,

does anyone know what ballpark cost for those new
dimmable MageMan recessed lights?

Thanks,
H4L

Stoner

northdublin would know for sure, but I think they are in the €16 range, they dim over steps, something like 100% - 70% - 50% 30% something like that, so they are not a smooth dimming lamp, but who cares.

yjmlighting

Gu10 and MR16 LED lights, easy for installation:

Edit: add removed

yjmlighting

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

All

I've just replaced most of the 50w GU10 halogens in our bedrooms with 3W LED bulbs. I got these from City Electrical Factors for c. €10 each - brand is "LITETRON". The light is nowhere near as bright as the halogens but I was always concerned about the amount of heat the latter gave out - with the LEDs you can insulate much better. The light is also quite "blue", but I added a colour change bulb in the corner of each room that improves the perceived quality as it cycles round - the kids love those BTW. With additional task lighting for reading they're fine.

I also borrowed a couple of the "high output" LEDs for c. €25 each. My original plan was to have a 1/2 of these in each room with the standard LEDs elsewhere but I don't think they're worth the price premium for the brighter light so they went back. Note that these were about 2mm longer than a standard GU10 so they didn't fit the fittings with clips.

We plan on using our stockpile of c. 35 halogens downstairs until they run out (treating them as a heat source!) - at which time we'll probably replace them with CFLs. They don't seem to be blowing too often (1 only in three months) as I think it's their use in the ceiling with a cold attic above which kills them.

"Recessed lighting" as such isn't a fire hazard if done properly, i.e. with the halogen bulbs properly ventilated. If not though, they can cause a fire in the first place and provide a fire path throught the ceiling - you also end up with a cold, uninsulated patch on the ceiling and draughts. You can get "intumescent" fittings which are enclosed and fill with foam, sealing the hole, in a fire or use LEDs, which generate negligible heat and allow you to maintain your insulation envelope.

SSE

GU10 3W LED bulb can out put 240 lumens if choose Cree LED chips, the only problem now for home lighting is price

yjmlighting

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

All

I've just replaced most of the 50w GU10 halogens in our bedrooms with 3W LED bulbs. I got these from City Electrical Factors for c. €10 each - brand is "LITETRON". The light is nowhere near as bright as the halogens but I was always concerned about the amount of heat the latter gave out - with the LEDs you can insulate much better. The light is also quite "blue", but I added a colour change bulb in the corner of each room that improves the perceived quality as it cycles round - the kids love those BTW. With additional task lighting for reading they're fine.

I also borrowed a couple of the "high output" LEDs for c. €25 each. My original plan was to have a 1/2 of these in each room with the standard LEDs elsewhere but I don't think they're worth the price premium for the brighter light so they went back. Note that these were about 2mm longer than a standard GU10 so they didn't fit the fittings with clips.

We plan on using our stockpile of c. 35 halogens downstairs until they run out (treating them as a heat source!) - at which time we'll probably replace them with CFLs. They don't seem to be blowing too often (1 only in three months) as I think it's their use in the ceiling with a cold attic above which kills them.

"Recessed lighting" as such isn't a fire hazard if done properly, i.e. with the halogen bulbs properly ventilated. If not though, they can cause a fire in the first place and provide a fire path throught the ceiling - you also end up with a cold, uninsulated patch on the ceiling and draughts. You can get "intumescent" fittings which are enclosed and fill with foam, sealing the hole, in a fire or use LEDs, which generate negligible heat and allow you to maintain your insulation envelope.

SSE

sorry, but 3w LED bulb can't be as bright as 50w halogens bulbs, 3W LED bulbs equal 20W halogen lights

yjmlighting

itsmine wrote: »

Our new holiday home build (currently undergoing second fix plumbing and electrical) has 16 downlighters in the kitchen/dining room. In an effort to curb energy usage somewhat, the electrician has suggested that we put LED bulbs into the downlighters instead of standard downlighter bulbs. Makes sense, as they only use a fraction of the energy to run than the standard bulbs.
Trouble is, the LED bulbs are €10 each.
Also, I haven't seen them in operation, so I don't know what kind of light they put out.
Anyone got any experience of them/advice?
Cheers..

Hi, check here if you can find the right LED downlights, it can last more than 3 years

Edit: add removed