New Focus raises the bar even higher again.

Henry Ford III · 03-12-2007 10:17am

copacetic wrote: »

that is some of the biggest load of bullcrap I have ever heard. I have esp on my car and it is fine without esp too, it has never come on, but it isn't supposed to kick in unless you are in serious trouble already. esp isn't there to help the handling it is to prevent spins etc when people misjudge speed through corners. a chassis doesn't make any fecking difference when someone goes around a corner too fast and keeps turning into it, esp will.

I didn't need it. I didn't crash or loose control of the car ever. Do you own a Focus ST? No need for the abusive comment btw.

peasant · 03-12-2007 11:10am

copacetic wrote: »

aw man, please don't go down the route of 'i'm such a good driver that I don't need things like esp'.

I never said that.

What I said is that a good chassis setup should give you enough feedback so that an experienced driver should know that he is about to overcook it and lay off.

Surely, ESP is a fine thing to have in an emergency, but I wouldn't see it as a neccessity.

By design it should only kick in if you made a serious driving error (unless it's there to mask a rubbish chassis) ...so don't make any mistakes and you won't need it.

There was a survey done in Germany on all these electronic helpers and the bottom line was, they they don't really offer that much increased safety (= less accidents) because driver recklessness rises proportionally to gadgets fitted and people tend to keep the pedal to the metal until all the lights on the dashboard start flashing and even something as sophisticated as ESP is at its limit.

BrianD3 · 03-12-2007 11:16am

Henry Ford III wrote:

Honestly your bitterness makes me laugh. Whatever your opinion might be your blinkers render it largely meaningless

LOL if anything you are the most blinkered and biased poster in the forum. Constantly hyping up Fords and their handling and bashing nearly every other make particularly Japanese and French makes. I am not bitter at all the Focus II is a good car, we have owned two of them so I have personal experience of it (how much personal experience have you of the cars you slate). But if I see fanboy talk or a biased review in either the forum or in a car mag I'm going to comment on it. Judging by comments from other posters it seems like I'm not the only one who has a problem with the fanboyism. Also I'd echo bazz26's comments/criticisms on the Focus.

Henry Ford III · 03-12-2007 11:27am

Comical dude. Genuinely.

03-12-2007 12:07pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I didn't need it. I didn't crash or loose control of the car ever. Do you own a Focus ST? No need for the abusive comment btw.

I have driven the ST once, it is difficult to break the front wheels on a good surface. I would totally agree it is a really planted car.

I can't imagine it is the same on greasy surfaces, there is alot of power going to those wheels!

R.O.R · 03-12-2007 12:26pm

A collegue of mine was at the launch of the new Focus in Belgium a couple of months ago. Ford brought all the competition to test drive against the new Focus (C4, Golf, Astra, Tiida etc). General concensus from most of the people there was that the Focus was the best looking, and best handling car in that sector (interstingly the Astra came out 2nd!). Standard spec isn't up to the same levels as the competition, but in my company's opinion a specced up Focus is cheaper to own/run over 3/4 years than anything else in that sector of a comparable spec.

maidhc · 03-12-2007 12:36pm

copacetic wrote: »

a chassis doesn't make any fecking difference when someone goes around a corner too fast and keeps turning into it, esp will.

Yes it does... a good chassis will say on the road, and a poor one won't. My Focus for instance can take a corner much better than my Avensis, and it feels much safer.

Henry Ford III · 03-12-2007 1:02pm

R.O.R wrote: »

A collegue of mine was at the launch of the new Focus in Belgium a couple of months ago. Ford brought all the competition to test drive against the new Focus (C4, Golf, Astra, Tiida etc). General concensus from most of the people there was that the Focus was the best looking, and best handling car in that sector (interstingly the Astra came out 2nd!). Standard spec isn't up to the same levels as the competition, but in my company's opinion a specced up Focus is cheaper to own/run over 3/4 years than anything else in that sector of a comparable spec.

Yep. Zetec spec. is essential. 1.6 petrol is good, and the 1.6 TDCI is fine too. The Budget may make anything bigger engine wise a rarity post June 2008.

The Astra looks very good as a 3 door. Quite sporty.

Henry Ford III · 03-12-2007 1:05pm

ronoc wrote: »

I have driven the ST once, it is difficult to break the front wheels on a good surface. I would totally agree it is a really planted car.

I can't imagine it is the same on greasy surfaces, there is alot of power going to those wheels!

I agree.

It's possible to provoke an ST into a slide or spin in conditions of limited grip, but any competent driver will know when it's time to go more gently on the throttle.

copacetic · 03-12-2007 1:59pm

maidhc wrote: »

Yes it does... a good chassis will say on the road, and a poor one won't. My Focus for instance can take a corner much better than my Avensis, and it feels much safer.

no it doesn't, a chassis doesn't 'keep you on the road'. If it did no-one could ever crash any decent car. all a chassis does is make the point of no return different from car to car. Your focus will still spin out at a certain point, which is when esp may keep you alive.

as usual we have the 'if you are a good driver you don't need no stinkin safety features' attitude, which is the attitude that gets most people killed on our roads. The focus is the most popular car in ireland, saying it doesn't need esp because it has a good chassis is just stupid. 90% of the people in them can't drive worth a damn, they need esp.

Why have ford made it standard on the mondeo, because it has a ****e chassis?

Henry Ford III · 03-12-2007 2:06pm

Please pick an argument elsewhere copacetic.

copacetic · 03-12-2007 2:28pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Please pick an argument elsewhere copacetic.

I'm not picking an argument, you are the one who made the idiotic statement, I'm entitled to point out how stupid a statement it is.

Henry Ford III · 03-12-2007 2:35pm

copacetic wrote: »

I'm not picking an argument, you are the one who made the idiotic statement, I'm entitled to point out how stupid a statement it is.

In your opinion. My point and opinion are every bit as valid as yours. More so perhaps as I owned and ran a Focus ST for a while, and know all about how these very fine cars drive.

Using terms such as "idiotic statement" and "stupid statement" highlight my point.

Thread spoiling is frowned upon here I believe.

copacetic · 03-12-2007 2:40pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

In your opinion. My point and opinion are every bit as valid as yours. More so perhaps as I owned and ran a Focus ST for a while, and know all about how these very fine cars drive.

Using terms such as "idiotic statement" and "stupid statement" highlight my point.

Thread spoiling is frowned upon here I believe.

I drove a focus for 6 years, not an ST, but still a fine car, which handles very well. Which is absolutely nothing to do with safety feature like esp.

You don't seem to know what thread spoiling means, you must thing you are on adverts.

E92 · 03-12-2007 3:00pm

@colm_mcm, will there be a price hike for the 1.6 Avensis now that it has ESP(or VSC as Toyota call it), Traction Control and Brake Assist as standard? If there is, surley it will make the 1.6 a bit pointless, especially as the VRT changes mean the D-4D will be in the 20% band, and the 1.6 will be in the 28% band(along with the 1.8), or will the 1.6 quietly disappear with the introduction of the new model Avensis next year?

Henry Ford III · 03-12-2007 3:01pm

So let's get this right.

You haven't even driven a car that you are prepared vehemently to insist needs ESP?

p.s. Check the thread title dude.

maidhc · 03-12-2007 3:08pm

copacetic wrote: »

no it doesn't, a chassis doesn't 'keep you on the road'. If it did no-one could ever crash any decent car. all a chassis does is make the point of no return different from car to car. Your focus will still spin out at a certain point, which is when esp may keep you alive.

You are missing the point. No car or chassis or ESP or ASC or Brake Assist can defy the forces of physics. A car with a good chassis will just be much safer than a poorly sorted one with whatever electrial device. Of course the best situation to to have a car with a good dynamics and all the safety features, but in the absence of this a good chassis and a safe handling car is the best anyone can hope for.

copacetic wrote: »

'if you are a good driver you don't need no stinkin safety features' attitude

No one except yourself has alluded to this!

copacetic · 03-12-2007 3:17pm

maidhc wrote: »

Of course the best situation to to have a car with a good dynamics and all the safety features

This is exactly what I was saying, people on the thread seem to believe good dynamics replace the need to safety features altogether.

No one except yourself has alluded to this!

ahem

ford fanboy wrote:

It's possible to provoke an ST into a slide or spin in conditions of limited grip, but any competent driver will know when it's time to go more gently on the throttle.

copacetic · 03-12-2007 3:18pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

So let's get this right.

You haven't even driven a car that you are prepared vehemently to insist needs ESP?

p.s. Check the thread title dude.

who says I haven't driven the new focus? what I am saying if you can understand is that any car is safer with esp. You are the one who says the focus doesn't need this vital safety feature. I suppose it don't need airbags either cos the chassis is so great you can't crash?

dogmatix · 03-12-2007 3:19pm

Maybe it's just me or i got the wrong link but apart from some changes to the front and headlights I can't really see any great difference from the current mk2. Perhaps I need to see it in the flesh.

E92 · 03-12-2007 3:40pm

dogmatix wrote: »

Maybe it's just me or i got the wrong link but apart from some changes to the front and headlights I can't really see any great difference from the current mk2. Perhaps I need to see it in the flesh.

Wikipedia says the facelifted Focus is still a Mk2 Focus, though i notice some people are referring to it as a Mk3.

Henry Ford III · 03-12-2007 3:43pm

copacetic wrote: »

who says I haven't driven the new focus? what I am saying if you can understand is that any car is safer with esp. You are the one who says the focus doesn't need this vital safety feature. I suppose it don't need airbags either cos the chassis is so great you can't crash?

Oh dear. Go back copacentric, because you will clearly see I was referring specifically to a Focus ST, which is the most powerful version of the car available. I drove one for a year, without incident. It's a well sorted and balanced car, way ahead again of the ordinary versions, which are in there own right excellent. I'm not saying I'm an gifted driver btw. The point is whilst ESP will doubtless help when a car is totally out of control this car is less likely to end up in that situation day 1.

Of course you can crash if you push too hard, but with a car as solidly planted as a Focus ST it's less likely than a car with inferior handling/grip/balance. ESP will not help if another car hits you btw.

Finally it's unlikely you've driven the yet to be launched new Model Focus, but
as you'd clearly argue black is white very little would surprise me.

Henry Ford III · 03-12-2007 3:46pm

dogmatix wrote: »

Maybe it's just me or i got the wrong link but apart from some changes to the front and headlights I can't really see any great difference from the current mk2. Perhaps I need to see it in the flesh.

Every exterior panel is new apparently.

maidhc · 03-12-2007 3:58pm

E92 wrote: »

Wikipedia says the facelifted Focus is still a Mk2 Focus, though i notice some people are referring to it as a Mk3.

I think it is a Mk3. it is more a Mk3 than the Mk2 mondeo was a Mk2, or the Mk3 Capri was a Mk3.

E92 · 03-12-2007 4:09pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Every exterior panel is new apparently.

The roof ain't and neither is the side glass!

JoeA3 · 03-12-2007 4:37pm

It does seem like more of a heavy facelift than a whole new "Mark" to me. To me, a new "mark" means a whole new chassis/underpinnings, not just some minor bodywork changes.
Also, its only 3.5 - 4 years since the current model was launched. The Mk1 Focus lasted from 1998-2004, with only a minor facelift (which some people referred to as the MK II !) midway through that cycle.

JHMEG · 03-12-2007 4:39pm

Not sure I get the argument about well sorted chassis vs not well sorted etc etc. Surely the main difference in a FWD car for the average joe is at what point it will understeer, and how badly. FWD cars by definition don't "spin" out, and ordinary joes don't think that a quick flick of opposite lock will correct anything.

Focus may have one of the better chassis, but this is an ordinary joe car driven by ordinary joes. ESP might help them from accidentally breaking into mad understeer on a wet roundabout. It might even be a more useful addition than ABS.

For what it's worth I've driven ordinary joe Focuses. I don't see what there is to get worked up about... it's an A-to-B car like the Almera, Golf, Avensis even.

copacetic · 03-12-2007 5:09pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Oh dear. Go back copacentric, because you will clearly see I was referring specifically to a Focus ST

Well, I went back and you clearly weren't, you mentioned the ST but clearly made a universal statement:

Henry Ford III wrote: »

The Focus chassis is so far ahead of the game it doesn't need ESP or ASR.

I drove a 2.5 ST for a year and it was fine without it/them.

VW are dropping independent rear suspension on the MkVI Golf btw. Focus has had this on all models since 1998.

Just pretend you did though, thats grand with me.

Henry Ford III · 03-12-2007 7:15pm

Back to topic.

JHMEG · 03-12-2007 8:30pm

Henry Ford III wrote:

VW are dropping independent rear suspension on the MkVI Golf btw. Focus has had this on all models since 1998.

First Golf to get it was the MkV, no? Jeez, that was short lived. Contrast Civic: had it in 1973, tho they just got rid of it with the new model.

New Focus raises the bar even higher again.

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