New Focus raises the bar even higher again.

E92

dogmatix wrote: »

Maybe it's just me or i got the wrong link but apart from some changes to the front and headlights I can't really see any great difference from the current mk2. Perhaps I need to see it in the flesh.

Wikipedia says the facelifted Focus is still a Mk2 Focus, though i notice some people are referring to it as a Mk3.

Henry Ford III

copacetic wrote: »

who says I haven't driven the new focus? what I am saying if you can understand is that any car is safer with esp. You are the one who says the focus doesn't need this vital safety feature. I suppose it don't need airbags either cos the chassis is so great you can't crash?

Oh dear. Go back copacentric, because you will clearly see I was referring specifically to a Focus ST, which is the most powerful version of the car available. I drove one for a year, without incident. It's a well sorted and balanced car, way ahead again of the ordinary versions, which are in there own right excellent. I'm not saying I'm an gifted driver btw. The point is whilst ESP will doubtless help when a car is totally out of control this car is less likely to end up in that situation day 1.

Of course you can crash if you push too hard, but with a car as solidly planted as a Focus ST it's less likely than a car with inferior handling/grip/balance. ESP will not help if another car hits you btw.

Finally it's unlikely you've driven the yet to be launched new Model Focus, but
as you'd clearly argue black is white very little would surprise me.

Henry Ford III

dogmatix wrote: »

Maybe it's just me or i got the wrong link but apart from some changes to the front and headlights I can't really see any great difference from the current mk2. Perhaps I need to see it in the flesh.

Every exterior panel is new apparently.

maidhc

E92 wrote: »

Wikipedia says the facelifted Focus is still a Mk2 Focus, though i notice some people are referring to it as a Mk3.

I think it is a Mk3. it is more a Mk3 than the Mk2 mondeo was a Mk2, or the Mk3 Capri was a Mk3.

E92

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Every exterior panel is new apparently.

The roof ain't and neither is the side glass!

JoeA3

It does seem like more of a heavy facelift than a whole new "Mark" to me. To me, a new "mark" means a whole new chassis/underpinnings, not just some minor bodywork changes.
Also, its only 3.5 - 4 years since the current model was launched. The Mk1 Focus lasted from 1998-2004, with only a minor facelift (which some people referred to as the MK II !) midway through that cycle.

JHMEG

Not sure I get the argument about well sorted chassis vs not well sorted etc etc. Surely the main difference in a FWD car for the average joe is at what point it will understeer, and how badly. FWD cars by definition don't "spin" out, and ordinary joes don't think that a quick flick of opposite lock will correct anything.

Focus may have one of the better chassis, but this is an ordinary joe car driven by ordinary joes. ESP might help them from accidentally breaking into mad understeer on a wet roundabout. It might even be a more useful addition than ABS.

For what it's worth I've driven ordinary joe Focuses. I don't see what there is to get worked up about... it's an A-to-B car like the Almera, Golf, Avensis even.

copacetic

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Oh dear. Go back copacentric, because you will clearly see I was referring specifically to a Focus ST

Well, I went back and you clearly weren't, you mentioned the ST but clearly made a universal statement:

Henry Ford III wrote: »

The Focus chassis is so far ahead of the game it doesn't need ESP or ASR.

I drove a 2.5 ST for a year and it was fine without it/them.

VW are dropping independent rear suspension on the MkVI Golf btw. Focus has had this on all models since 1998.

Just pretend you did though, thats grand with me.

Henry Ford III

Back to topic.

JHMEG

Henry Ford III wrote:

VW are dropping independent rear suspension on the MkVI Golf btw. Focus has had this on all models since 1998.

First Golf to get it was the MkV, no? Jeez, that was short lived. Contrast Civic: had it in 1973, tho they just got rid of it with the new model.

Spit62500

JHMEG wrote: »

FWD cars by definition don't "spin" out, and ordinary joes don't think that a quick flick of opposite lock will correct anything.

I think that its more correct to say that FWD cars will tend to understeer and RWD cars will tend towards oversteer but the rule is not absolute. I've spun two FWD cars in my younger and more foolish days - one was an '88 Starlet and one was a '90 Carina. In both situations the road was greasy, I wasn't going really fast and in both cases opposite lock made no difference. I've owned plenty of RWD cars including a 2.5 litre Spitfire with a swing axle so I'm very familiar with the joys of opposite lock.

JHMEG

JHMEG wrote: »

Not sure I get the argument about well sorted chassis vs not well sorted etc etc. Surely the main difference in a FWD car for the average joe is at what point it will understeer, and how badly. FWD cars by definition don't "spin" out, and ordinary joes don't think that a quick flick of opposite lock will correct anything.

The way the MK1 focus' rear suspension is setup its possible to get liftoff overstear. Ive never tried it with the MK2.

MarkN

New car looks ok, there's only so much you can say. It's a Focus at the end of the day. If it was an Enzo I could understand the fuss but it's a Focus. I'd say the same if it was a Golf but seriously, there's only so much passion a human being should have for a mid sized a to b car?! For what it's worth, my car is well planted, handles well.. It would make it a much harder car to drive if it didn't have esp/traction/dsc etc and it has nothing to do with the level of skill the driver has. There's a button there to turn it all off if you like but it's still nice to have the choice.

kaiser sauze

If you put the MK I, II and III alongside each other there is little difference between any of them. I like car to progress in design, like the Renault Laguna, for example.

I've never liked the Focus, like all Ford's, they seem to have this 'bigtoycar' feel to them. Yuk.

BostonB

MarkN wrote: »

N...For what it's worth, my car is well planted, handles well.. It would make it a much harder car to drive if it didn't have esp/traction/dsc etc a...

I don't get that. Safety features are there to get you out of trouble when you get yourself into trouble. They are a safety margin. They shouldn't make a car easier to drive. In fact they shouldn't change the driving character of a car at all. The exception do that is when they do tweak the electronic aids to change the natural behavior of the car. Thats usually when the car handles naturally badly, or has some nasty trait.

You can over cook a car that handles well, just as you can a badly handling car. Some of the best handling cars in the world have some nasty traits that will put you through a hedge backwards if you over do it.

JHMEG

ronoc wrote: »

The way the MK1 focus' rear suspension is setup its possible to get liftoff overstear. Ive never tried it with the MK2.

I very much doubt that, being front engined. In all my years of driving I've only had this happen once, and only very mildly, in an MR2.

In case I'm missing something a quick google leads to evo magazine: "not many Focus owners will be too worried about a lack of lift-off oversteer"

BostonB

kaiser sauze wrote: »

If you put the MK I, II and III alongside each other there is little difference between any of them. I like car to progress in design, like the Renault Laguna, for example.

I've never liked the Focus, like all Ford's, they seem to have this 'bigtoycar' feel to them. Yuk.

I never liked the design of the focus, its always been butt ugly IMO. Awkward angles all over the place. The only half decent ones looking ones have been the RS and the ST. At least they are half decent to drive.

The Laguna might be progress in design/fashion, but thats about the only progress. But least they are trying, if not always succeeding.

BostonB

JHMEG wrote: »

I very much doubt that, being front engined. In all my years of driving I've only had this happen once, and only very mildly, in an MR2.

Front engined and lift off over steer are not mutually exclusive. 205 being a case in point. I know from experience a CRX would do it too.

JHMEG

BostonB wrote: »

Front engined and lift off over steer are not mutually exclusive. 205 being a case in point. I know from experience a CRX would do it too.

Front engined and FWD makes it nearly impossible. I know my Integra would break loose at the back at times, but lift off over-steer wasn't the reason. It was gravel or a greasy road.

BostonB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKxCT1UK_sE
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=458202&i=20

JHMEG

JHMEG wrote: »

I very much doubt that, being front engined. In all my years of driving I've only had this happen once, and only very mildly, in an MR2.

In case I'm missing something a quick google leads to evo magazine: "not many Focus owners will be too worried about a lack of lift-off oversteer"

Thats a Mk2 focus..

I owned MK1 for a year I think I should know! On second gear corners on the limit if you lift off the back will start to give way.

MarkN

BostonB wrote: »

I don't get that. Safety features are there to get you out of trouble when you get yourself into trouble.

Well even with all the tricks on I have managed to get the back of my car out in the wet, unplanned, very easily. I can only imagine how much fun it would be without stuff like we have mentioned.

JHMEG

ronoc wrote: »

Thats a Mk2 focus..

I owned MK1 for a year I think I should know! On second gear corners on the limit if you lift off the back will start to give way.

My apologies. Which version did you own?

@BostonB. I said nearly impossible, not impossible. Those guys are talking about quite a bit of practice required to get an ITR to do it. And that's an ITR.. imagine what an ordinary FWD car would be like.

JHMEG

JHMEG wrote: »

My apologies. Which version did you own?

@BostonB. I said nearly impossible, not impossible. Those guys are talking about quite a bit of practice required to get an ITR to do it. And that's an ITR.. imagine what an ordinary FWD car would be like.

It was a humble 1.4, if you pushed it the right way the back would slide a bit as you let off the throttle. Granted you either have to be chucking it hard in a corner or have a greasy surface.

JHMEG

ronoc wrote: »

It was a humble 1.4, if you pushed it the right way the back would slide a bit as you let off the throttle. Granted you either have to be chucking it hard in a corner or have a greasy surface.

Ahh, greasy surfaces doesn't count (and neither does gravel or ice rinks:D), as a car will not behave normally on these surfaces.

Have driven my bro in law's 1.4 MkI a lot, last time was yesterday. Wouldn't say it has a tendancy, or power, to under or oversteer.

maidhc

JHMEG wrote: »

Have driven my bro in law's 1.4 MkI a lot, last time was yesterday. Wouldn't say it has a tendancy, or power, to under or oversteer.

I have a 1.8TDCi version of the same car, and while significantly more powerful than the 1.4 at 115bhp, I don't think it can do anything other than run wide eventually... and in fairness to the car I run out of balls before it runs out of grip.

JHMEG

maidhc wrote: »

I have a 1.8TDCi version of the same car, and while significantly more powerful than the 1.4 at 115bhp, I don't think it can do anything other than run wide eventually... and in fairness to the car I run out of balls before it runs out of grip.

Get yourself on a large roundabout, progressively and steadily increase throttle. See what happens. Obviously this roundabout will be in mondello or similar.

BostonB

JHMEG wrote: »

...@BostonB. I said nearly impossible, not impossible. Those guys are talking about quite a bit of practice required to get an ITR to do it. And that's an ITR.. imagine what an ordinary FWD car would be like.

JHMEG wrote: »

I very much doubt that, being front engined. In all my years of driving I've only had this happen once, and only very mildly, in an MR2.....

Semantics. Your inference that its impossible with a FWD car is clear from your comment. Fact it is possible as the video clearly shows. Some FWD cars were well known for it. 205, CRX etc. Its pretty easy to provoke all it takes is to unbalance the car. To do it deliberately takes skill. But generally it happens when you aren't expecting it, and not deliberately.

Of course it depends which MR2 you are talking about. The Mk1 and early Mk2 suffered from it. But the later Mk2 MR2's where changed to reduce lift off oversteer. Of course a lot of them were modified. Bigger tyres and suspension changes are going effect lift off oversteer in a big way. The early turbos where great fun when the turbo cut in mid way through a corner, people would lift off, even break, then the back end would start wagging. If you didn't experience it then you didn't drive it hard enough or you had the sense to brake before the corner and not in the middle of it.

Modern cars tend to have the trait dialed out and usually understeer usually a lot instead. Cars like the 205, CRX, MR2 break away too suddenly so its not a good trait. Especially as lifting off mid corner is a natural response if you've over cooked the corner. For the average joe you want understeer not oversteer. What you want is a car that can over steer but in a controlled way and break away gradually so you can control it. The ITR can do this, in many ways it handles like a RWD car, but then it has one of the best chassis ever. So its not really useful to compare it to other FWD cars, especially "ordinary ones".

A good driver can usually get a car to do anything they want. I remember Tiff drifting a Puma 3 up on Top Gear. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq9jPs8TqX8

maidhc

JHMEG wrote: »

Get yourself on a large roundabout, progressively and steadily increase throttle. See what happens. Obviously this roundabout will be in mondello or similar.

I ususually save those moments of madness for when I am in my Capri (and not on the way to or from work!)

JHMEG

BostonB wrote: »

Semantics. Your inference that its impossible with a FWD car is clear from your comment.

What? You're now telling me I said something different, even tho the written record is there?

Tiff can get cars to go on two wheels too.. doesn't mean it's a natural trait or easy.

Henry Ford III

More thumbs up from 4 Car:-

http://www.channel4.com/4car/rt/ford/focus/519/2?cntsrc=ns_car_051207_a2