EU Turkish Issue?

AngryHippie

Has the issue over Turkey joining the EU been dropped or where abouts on the back burner is it, and more importantly where can someone vehemently object to their accession until the Armenian Holocaust has been acknowledged ?

constellation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_European_Union

bill_ashmount

Turkey shouldn't be in the EU, fullstop. How far east do they intend on going, India, China, Japan????

Tea drinker

Well shouldn't they start with Turkeys neighbours? e.g. Iraq, Iran, Syria.
Sure to bring a stabilising influence to the EU!
What do we need or want Turkey in the EU for? Why is the UK always (publicly anyway) pushing the entry of turkey?
Didn't they in the last few months have a little problem where the army had to step in to preserve the secular nature of the country? don't they have huge problems with their own demographics, the kurds? What lunatic would bring this to a stable EU?

I really don't see how their joining EU would benefit us.

Carpenter

3% of Turkey is in Europe so why not

jonny72

I'm all for understanding and modern day principles, but to let the Turks into the EU at this moment would be pretty crazy. I think the vast majority of Europeans are against it.

leninbenjamin

the biggest problem i see within the EU is that it's expanded too fast. regardless of whether or not Turkey would make a good member or not until the current plethora settle in and the balance of power (as well as the economic redistribution it brings) settles. it'd be 10 years before i think they should consider any other country for accession.

wes

If they meet the conditions, I see no reason why they shouldn't be let in.

Munya

I'm against it. I was against the last large expansion though to, but this is ott.

extragon

They'll never meet the normal conditions, so a special set of conditions is to be created.
Turks would be permanently denied the right of free movement, thus weakening the legal principle of EU citizenship. The notion of a Europe we can identify with would be stamped out, with the eventual aim of reducing the EU to the status of a free trade zone, with no political identity - the Turks, as super nationalists, would lead the way forward here - or ability to independently regulate international capitalism.
Oh, and the US wants them in. So that settles it.

djpbarry

bill_ashmount wrote: »

Turkey shouldn't be in the EU, fullstop. How far east do they intend on going, India, China, Japan????

You're opposed to their geographical location? That's it?

Tea drinker wrote: »

What do we need or want Turkey in the EU for?

First of all, it is one of the biggest economies in the world. Secondly, the average age in Turkey is much lower than the EU average - plenty of workers to support us in our old age!

Tea drinker wrote: »

don't they have huge problems with their own demographics, the kurds? What lunatic would bring this to a stable EU?

There is a bit of social unrest so they should be excluded? If you were to apply that criteria to all member states, then you wouldn't have much of an EU left, would you?

wes wrote: »

If they meet the conditions, I see no reason why they shouldn't be let in.

Here, here. The biggest obstacle to their joining is their refusal to recognise Cyprus. If they get around that, then I see no reason why they should not be admitted.

As Kostas Karamanlis says, "Full compliance, full accession".

extragon wrote: »

They'll never meet the normal conditions, so a special set of conditions is to be created.

Well that's the problem; there are special conditions being thrown at them that other applicants do not have to meet.

jonny72 wrote: »

I'm all for understanding and modern day principles, but to let the Turks into the EU at this moment would be pretty crazy.

Munya wrote: »

I'm against it. I was against the last large expansion though to, but this is ott.

Why? Have we not benefited from EU expansion?

bill_ashmount

djpbarry wrote: »

You're opposed to their geographical location? That's it?

I'm opposed to the name, European Union. Call it what it is a World Union or European/Asian union.

brianthebard

Agree with the OP's holocaust point, Turkey should have to acknowledge the holocaust and make suitable retribution among a whole host of other issues that need to be fixed before they could join the Union.

SeanW

There's also the issue of the primarily Islamic population - this could be trouble because by extension, it means that the people could abandon secular governace at any time.

IIRC they came very close to it in the last year.

There's the whole business with the Kurds, Cyprus, the alleged Armenian atrocities, and the fact that its (and therefore the EU's) borders are with political sh1tholes like Iraq and Iran among others. Good look patrolling THAT, or having Turkey in the Schengen Zone.

Then there's the most striking point - 97% of Turkey's landmass is in Asia.

wes

SeanW wrote: »

There's also the issue of the primarily Islamic population - this could be trouble because by extension, it means that the people could abandon secular governace at any time.

IIRC they came very close to it in the last year.

I don't follow what your saying. There Muslim and therefore they must be on the teetering edge of dumping secularism?

Also, when did Turkey come close to abandoning the secular system in the last year? That is a gross misrepresentation of what happened in Turkey over the last year.

Morlar

bill_ashmount wrote: »

Turkey shouldn't be in the EU, fullstop. How far east do they intend on going, India, China, Japan????

Acc the british Foreign Secretary the intention (if you read between the lines) is to go as far as israel. You can bet the powers that be wont want iran or iraq/syria/lybia etc.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7095657.stm
~~~~~~~

There are obvious reasons why turkey should not be invited to join imo.

a)
The recent incidents of christians having their throats slit for publishing a bible in a majority muslim country would be one. And no, the turkish govt did not sanction that or other incidents - but it is an indicator of the amount of tolerance and moderation that you would be introducing to mainland europe.

b)
The reason for turkey remaining secular (no sharia law or no burkas to cover women like furniture) is down to the turkish military insisting that it stay out of the dark ages and remain forward looking. That balance of power can easily change and if the military were undermined sharia law (as many muslims want) could rapidly be introduced into turkey.

Can you imagine in 5 or 10 years time an EU country starts stoning adulterous women to death ? There is already one islamic moderator on boards who finds nothing wrong with that in principle. The antics of sudan (calls for death of the teddy teacher) or saudi (female rape victim gets 200 lashes) sharia courts mirrored in an eu country ? That would be anathema to the majority of liberal europeans and move to changing the character of europe in a negative direction.

c)
Free travel for all turks to move to any where in europe ? If you have seen the turkish ghettoes in germany you might think twice about that one - imo turks have not integrated well into countries they have large populations in. Refusing to learn the local language or to mix socially or to be involved in a positive manner economically. Their neighbourhoods in berlin for example are high crime and high unemployment/high social dependence. Free movement across Europe for a country with a population that size with borders on iraq would not necessarily be a good thing. At the least people should think about it.


d)
I think there should be a referendum on it (along with discusssion free from the usual pc ^^ nonsense) and if it goes ahead strict conditions of membership need to be imposed.

This is not like allowing any other predominantly white christian country into the EU - this would be a change with potentially serious consequences and people should at least be given a choice. How far toward the middles east should the EU be pushed ?


Personally I think Russia has a lot more in common with europe than turkey ever will and if we are to expand I think that is the direction we should be looking at.

SeanW

wes wrote: »

I don't follow what your saying. There Muslim and therefore they must be on the teetering edge of dumping secularism?

They may not be be teetering on the edge of it now but it's always a possibility.

Also, when did Turkey come close to abandoning the secular system in the last year? That is a gross misrepresentation of what happened in Turkey over the last year.

Didn't the Army get involved in some religious vs. seculuar party stuff not so long ago? I forget the exact details.

I also note that you didn't contest any of the other issues I raised.

Zambia

I just dont like them so no I dont want them in ? However we are basically expanded the the borders of europe I fail to see the burning desire to let more countries in.

Tea drinker

djpbarry wrote: »

First of all, it is one of the biggest economies in the world. Secondly, the average age in Turkey is much lower than the EU average - plenty of workers to support us in our old age!

Why? Have we not benefited from EU expansion?

Unsustainable to rely on foreign countries to prop us up in our old age, not to mention it's kind of New world order esque. We should structure our expenditure such that this is unnecessary.

If you want to have a decent old age save money and have a decent pension. If you want to lie up on someone, do it to your own family!

Yeah, I think we (Irish and immigrants and their home countries) benefitted from it in the short term, more than happy to see our resident (?) population of foreigners went from what? about .1% to 10% in a few short years, in fact per capita we have taken in more than Germany since WW2, at least so I heard.

I don't think I am discussing the BIG ISSUES. Turkish Human rights record, and instability deny them access, never mind the elephant in the corner: How are so many muslims going to participate and interact with us? I know we are not talking about Saudi type culture, but things change and we should be more than careful in this regard.
The good thing is we can survive without Turkey in EU and obviously they are doing well without us thank you. So what's the problem? Or what is the agenda of those pushing for their entry??

djpbarry

bill_ashmount wrote: »

I'm opposed to the name, European Union. Call it what it is a World Union or European/Asian union.

So let's say the name was changed to the Eurasian Union; presumably you'd be ok with Turkey joining then?

brianthebard wrote: »

Agree with the OP's holocaust point, Turkey should have to acknowledge the holocaust and make suitable retribution

Acknowledge, yes. Retribution, no. The Armenian genocide was committed by the Ottoman Empire, not by Turkey. How much did other member states have to pay for their past?

SeanW wrote: »

the fact that its (and therefore the EU's) borders are with political sh1tholes like Iraq and Iran among others.

I think it's pretty unfair to hold their geographical position against them.

Morlar wrote: »

That balance of power can easily change and if the military were undermined sharia law (as many muslims want) could rapidly be introduced into turkey.

Yes, all Muslims support sharia law; it's just a matter of time before they take over the world :rolleyes:

Morlar wrote: »

Can you imagine in 5 or 10 years time an EU country starts stoning adulterous women to death ?

Capital punishment was outlawed in Turkey in 2004.

Morlar wrote: »

If you have seen the turkish ghettoes in germany you might think twice about that one - imo turks have not integrated well into countries they have large populations in. Refusing to learn the local language or to mix socially or to be involved in a positive manner economically. Their neighbourhoods in berlin for example are high crime and high unemployment/high social dependence.

Right, can we deal in facts rather than sweeping generalisations?

Morlar wrote: »

This is not like allowing any other predominantly white christian country into the EU

Your argument seems to be the basic "they're not white (as far as I know), they're not Christian and they don't speak the same language as me, so they must be evil".

Morlar wrote: »

Personally I think Russia has a lot more in common with europe than turkey ever will and if we are to expand I think that is the direction we should be looking at.

You think Russia has more to offer the EU than Turkey?!? Care to back that up with something?

Tea drinker wrote: »

more than happy to see our resident (?) population of foreigners went from what? about .1% to 10% in a few short years, in fact per capita we have taken in more than Germany since WW2

Your point being?

Tea drinker wrote: »

How are so many muslims going to participate and interact with us?

Ah yes, the old Islam = evil argument. Yawn...

Interesting fact: Turkey received over 24 million tourists in 2005; I would imagine a fairly substantial number were European.

Tea drinker

djpbarry wrote: »

Right, can we deal in facts rather than sweeping generalisations?

You think Russia has more to offer the EU than Turkey?!? Care to back that up with something?

Your point being?

Ah yes, the old Islam = evil argument. Yawn...

The guy mentioned the fact that turkish ghettoes formed in Germany. And in France and Sweden etc. How can we avoid the same in Ireland, or do you see this as a plus?

As for Russia they have huge reserves of gas and oil, and we are now quite dependant on them. A close working relationship is necessary here.
Maybe not a member of the Union, they have a long, long, long way to go before they should be allowed join

?What's the point in your condescension? I never said they were evil. How do you know I am not implying that we are evil?
If you are tired off to bed with ya!

AngryHippie

While very few of todays modern day Turkish population could even be associated in any way with their treatment (Not alleged, Witnessed and documented) treatment of the Armenians, They are however involved intricately in massive denial that it ever happened, and this veil of secrecy is completely against what most of the EU countries and the Union itself claim to stand for. It is an outrageous insult to the people and their descendants and the least any credible government could do would be to acknowledge it. The more worrying aspect is the connection of a US cabal in this cover-up and denial, with many Turkish students going to the US to study then arriving back as an "authority" on ottoman-turkish history and claiming that it never happened. From what I have read it was a rag-tag group of Kurdish and Turkish army units that committed the bulk of the atrocities, I do not see any sense or benefit in denying it. As Israel gets mentioned above as a limit for EU expansion, The alarm bells are really going now, as the Israelis are also Armenian Holocaust deniers which baffles belief. They should be chief among the symathisers considering many of the horrors their people suffered in Europe were born from the testing grounds of the Armenian Holocaust, But instead Israeli academics classify it as a minor genocide, not the mass murder of 1.5 million people, the rape and murder of an entire generation of women and children and the persecution of an ethnic people.

While modern day Turkey may or may not be held responsible or subject to retribution is another days argument, but before they are even acknowledged as a nation fit to maintain diplomatic relations with, they should and must at least admit to their history, bloody and shameful though it is.

Tea drinker

AngryHippie wrote: »

While very few of todays modern day Turkish population could even be associated in any way with their treatment (Not alleged, Witnessed and documented) treatment of the Armenians, They are however involved intricately in massive denial that it ever happened, and this veil of secrecy is completely against what most of the EU countries and the Union itself claim to stand for. It is an outrageous insult to the people and their descendants and the least any credible government could do would be to acknowledge it. The more worrying aspect is the connection of a US cabal in this cover-up and denial, with many Turkish students going to the US to study then arriving back as an "authority" on ottoman-turkish history and claiming that it never happened. From what I have read it was a rag-tag group of Kurdish and Turkish army units that committed the bulk of the atrocities, I do not see any sense or benefit in denying it. As Israel gets mentioned above as a limit for EU expansion, The alarm bells are really going now, as the Israelis are also Armenian Holocaust deniers which baffles belief. They should be chief among the symathisers considering many of the horrors their people suffered in Europe were born from the testing grounds of the Armenian Holocaust, But instead Israeli academics classify it as a minor genocide, not the mass murder of 1.5 million people, the rape and murder of an entire generation of women and children and the persecution of an ethnic people.

While modern day Turkey may or may not be held responsible or subject to retribution is another days argument, but before they are even acknowledged as a nation fit to maintain diplomatic relations with, they should and must at least admit to their history, bloody and shameful though it is.

Well U.S. is relying heavily on turkey for supply functions to Iraq. They couldn't do it without them. (well they can't do it with them either!) Maybe usual foreign policy of ignoring the dog**** all over your new pals lawn.

Your point about Irsrael is interesting, and ironic... holocaust denial laws anyone?

djpbarry

Tea drinker wrote: »

The guy mentioned the fact that turkish ghettoes formed in Germany. And in France and Sweden etc.

First of all, "ghettos" (a word that is thrown around far too much) are formed all over the world by various different ethnic groups; it is not a phenomenon that is unique to Turks in Germany. Secondly, the assumption is being made that Turkish "ghettos" will form in Ireland and hence Turkish immigration would be inherently bad.

Tea drinker wrote: »

How can we avoid the same in Ireland, or do you see this as a plus?

You cannot dictate where people live - it is entirely up to the individual (and the property market, I suppose).

Tea drinker wrote: »

As for Russia they have huge reserves of gas and oil, and we are now quite dependant on them.

I could say the same of Saudi Arabia.

Tea drinker wrote: »

Maybe not a member of the Union, they have a long, long, long way to go before they should be allowed join

And yet you think they should be given preference over Turkey?

Tea drinker wrote: »

What's the point in your condescension? I never said they were evil.

You implied that "so many Muslims" would have difficulty "interacting" with us (by "us", I assume you mean non-Muslims). You're main objection to Turkish EU membership would appear to be the fact that the majority of the population is Muslim.

wes

SeanW wrote: »

They may not be be teetering on the edge of it now but it's always a possibility.

Didn't the Army get involved in some religious vs. seculuar party stuff not so long ago? I forget the exact details.

I also note that you didn't contest any of the other issues I raised.

The army didn't get involved at all. There were protests from the oppositions parties. The army made a few statements, thats about it.

Free and fair elections were held recently. The opposition lost.

You are right anything is possible. The British may decide to dump democracy and let the royal family rule. It could happen!!!

As for your other points, I do consider them serious issues. I only took issue with I taught was a misrepresentation of the situation in Turkey.

The Kurds and the Cyprus are both serious issues and you made a fair point about them. The other stuff not so much.

AngryHippie

Tea drinker wrote: »

... holocaust denial laws anyone?

A la France,
Check it out, it is actually a crime, if there is any evidence of a Holocaust, to deny it.

Pity bout Algeria though:eek:

eoin5

djpbarry wrote: »

The Armenian genocide was committed by the Ottoman Empire, not by Turkey.

It was also commited by Eurasia, and humankind. A certain level of guilt is affordable to all denominations in events.

If a doctor perscribes a drug incorrectly and the person dies is the doc responsible? Of course, but its (legally) 25%. The pharmacist who hands out the drug is (again legally) 75% responsible.

In that event the Turks of the time obviously take most of the blame, and the Kurds of the time share plenty of the blame too. What they did was act on local hatred in an unforgivable way. Turkey committed the Armenian genocide: fact. So did the Ottoman empire: fact.

Lets not let the Turks get away with it by denying it or passing it off as some dead empires fault. History deserves better.

Dont be at yourself

I don't think it's racist, prejudiced, or a sweeping generalisation to say that - in the current global political climate - that allowing a country so removed both geographically and, more importantly, culturally from current member states is going to lead to integration problems.

Considering that many of the world's hot-button topics are as a result of Islamic-Christian culture clashes, you have to wonder if it's more trouble than it's worth.

Comparatively youthful population aside, what else do Turkey bring to the table?

djpbarry

eoin5 wrote: »

If a doctor perscribes a drug incorrectly and the person dies is the doc responsible? Of course, but its (legally) 25%. The pharmacist who hands out the drug is (again legally) 75% responsible.

That's totally different man - the doctor is directly involved. A better analogy would be to ask if the doctor's kids should have to pay for (or even just apologise for) their father's mistake - I would say no.

eoin5 wrote: »

Lets not let the Turks get away with it by denying it or passing it off as some dead empires fault.

I never said that the event should not be acknowledged by Turkey; it should. What I am saying is that Turks in the present day should not have to pay for, or apologise for, something that happened long before they were born.

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Considering that many of the world's hot-button topics are as a result of Islamic-Christian culture clashes, you have to wonder if it's more trouble than it's worth.

It could also be viewed as a tremendous opportunity to bridge the divide?

Do people really think that Turkish culture is all that different to say, (whisper it now) Greece? Let's not forget that the influence of the Ottoman Empire spread far beyond the borders of present-day Turkey; much of south-Eastern Europe would have cultural similarities with the Turks. Many languages in this region, for example, have similarities with Turkish.

wes

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Comparatively youthful population aside, what else do Turkey bring to the table?

Big army for one.

Bridging the divide between the "West" and "Muslim World". Basically showing people there that when you play ball, that good things happen. A successful Turkey in the EU with a nicely integrated Muslim population would be a nice example to the rest of the Muslim world.

There is a lot of potential in my mind for having Turkey in the EU. There are also risks that people have pointed out as well. Turkey should be judged on the criteria that the EU has set out, there are major outstanding issue that could keep Turkey outside the EU. If they don't shape up and meet them, they shouldn't be allowed in. If they do shape up, I see no reason they should not be allowed in.

silverharp

djpbarry wrote: »

Do people really think that Turkish culture is all that different to say, (whisper it now) Greece? Let's not forget that the influence of the Ottoman Empire spread far beyond the borders of present-day Turkey; much of south-Eastern Europe would have cultural similarities with the Turks. Many languages in this region, for example, have similarities with Turkish.

this makes sense, the western part of Turkey is in reality part of a greater med. culture so to isolate them from Europe is small minded. The country has great econimic potenial in the future and given the tensions in the mid east one would have though that it would be better to have them as friends then to treat them like a bad smell. You only have to look at Ireland to see that that the EEC put he final nail in the coffin of extremist Catholicism here so one would expect that Turkish membership would cap the power of the religious types there. Plus I don't want to become a citizen of the United States of Europe so the bigger the club the less chance there is of a formal political union.