EU Turkish Issue?

Morlar

From everyones friend wikipedia :

Upon joining the EU, Turkey's almost 70 million inhabitants would bestow it the second largest number of MEPs in the European Parliament.[10] Demographic projections indicate Turkey would surpass Germany in the number of seats by 2020

No thanks we have enough islamists in europe already without importing 70 million more overnight. I just dont see the positive contribution that would come out of this. I can see how it would benefit islamists looking to expand their religon into and across europe - but from a european point of view its not in our interests in my view.

wes

Morlar wrote: »

No thanks we have enough islamists in europe already without importing 70 million more overnight. I just dont see the positive contribution that would come out of this. I can see how it would benefit islamists looking to expand their religon into and across europe - but from a european point of view its not in our interests in my view.

So you have proof that every single Turk is an Islamist? If they are, they are the worse Islamist ever, what with the secular democracy in there country.

Honestly such an assertion is complete rubbish.

Morlar

wes wrote: »

So you have proof that every single Turk is an Islamist? If they are, they are the worse Islamist ever, what with the secular democracy in there country.

So your saying we should run background checks on 70,000,000 people or just take your word for it that this would not be introducing large numbers of islamic fundamentalists into the eu ?

djpbarry

Morlar wrote: »

we have enough islamists in europe already without importing 70 million more overnight.

You've just lost all credibility as far as this argument is concerned.

Morlar wrote: »

So your saying we should run background checks on 70,000,000 people or just take your word for it that this would not be introducing large numbers of islamic fundamentalists into the eu ?

If Turkey is so chocked full of Fundamentalists, then how has secularism been maintained for over 80 years? Surely if the majority of the population want an Islamic state it would have happened by now? It is a democracy, after all.

Morlar

djpbarry wrote: »

You've just lost all credibility as far as this argument is concerned.

I should just take your word for that then shall I ? You are assuming that you had any to begin with btw.

djpbarry wrote: »

If Turkey is so chocked full of Fundamentalists, then how has secularism been maintained for over 80 years? Surely if the majority of the population want an Islamic state it would have happened by now? It is a democracy, after all.

There is nothing to say that it wont happen 5 or 10 or 15 years down the road which is the point.

Things change & just because turkey has held onto secularism thus far doesnt mean that that is a permanent situation.

It has a 99% islamic population - there are already internal tensions and calls for sharia law to be introduced - not to mention border disputes and extremist nationalism in a region which is no stranger to conflct. To assume the country is a stable secular democracy is a bit of a leap imo.

It is not moderate or tolerant of minorities which is another significant problem. I dont believe we can magically solve that by inviting them to be the country with the most power in the eu by 2020.

wes

Morlar wrote: »

So your saying we should run background checks on 70,000,000 people or just take your word for it that this would not be introducing large numbers of islamic fundamentalists into the eu ?

Your post was very clear. You accused the entire population of being Islamists. So are we suppose to take your word for it? As I said earlier your assertion is rubbish. Not all Turk are Islamists, in fact I would reckon not too many are. The fact they have been a secular democracy seems to be a major point against your ridiculous assertion.

You seem to have backed down a bit from your original post, but your first post on the matter is pretty telling.

Morlar

wes wrote: »

Not all Turk are Islamists, in fact I would reckon not too many are.

So - in other words yes we should just take your word for it and hope that none of them are. Fine glad to see you cleared that up for us.

70,000,000 is a lot of people - even 5 or 10% of that many being politicised or even potentially politicised islamists would be too many in my view. It's a lot of risk and not in the interests of european liberals in my view. Perhaps you can outline how it is in our interests for a change ?

What exactly are the benefits to europe of taking this risk ?

Considering it would mean permanently changing the demographic balance and power balance ? I cant believe that you are honestly saying there is no political islam factor here ? I believe that political islam across europe is paying very close attention to this issue.

wes

Morlar wrote: »

So - in other words yes we should just take your word for it and hope that none of them are. Fine glad to see you cleared that up for us.

You made the accusation not me. Why should I take you word for it either? You have provided not evidence to back up what your saying. Basically your point boils down to there Muslims, so there gonna be trouble. Its up to you to prove your point. I have already made my case, which is a lot more than taking me at my word.

I already said that Turkey is a secular democracy, to back up what I am saying. Basically, i already pointed out the fact Turkey = Secular democracy, hence the Islamist can't be all that powerful or numerous at all. You aren't taking my word for it at all, your taking the fact Turkey is a secular democracy.

I have already stated potential benefits for Turkey joining the EU earlier. Of course there will be risk, and at present Turkey has a long way to go before it can join.

djpbarry

Morlar wrote: »

There is nothing to say that it wont happen 5 or 10 or 15 years down the road which is the point.

There is nothing to say that it will happen either.

Morlar wrote: »

Things change & just because turkey has held onto secularism thus far doesnt mean that that is a permanent situation.

You could apply that logic to just about anything. Of course things change, but things don't change overnight for no good reason.

Morlar wrote: »

It has a 99% islamic population - there are already internal tensions and calls for sharia law to be introduced

Calls from who? That statement really means nothing. There have been calls for sharia law to be introduced in Ireland - does that mean that the majority of people want it?

Morlar wrote: »

It is not moderate or tolerant of minorities which is another significant problem.

That's a bit general and not very specific now, is it? I could apply that statement to just about any country in the world.

If Turks are so intolerant, why is there tourist industry booming?

Morlar

djpbarry wrote: »

There is nothing to say that it will happen either.

You could apply that logic to just about anything. Of course things change, but things don't change overnight for no good reason.

No one mentioned overnight or 'for no good reason' - assuming that there is ever 'a good reason' for sharia law or islamic fundamentalism.

djpbarry wrote: »

There have been calls for sharia law to be introduced in Ireland - does that mean that the majority of people want it?

Not yet

djpbarry wrote: »

If Turks are so intolerant, why is there tourist industry booming?

Your confusing cheap package operators with tolerance and moderation - acceptance of minorities, homosexuals and so on - also womens rights and religious freedoms. Not exactly the same thing are they ? Cheap holidays = human rights ?

Perhaps, instead of cherrypicking other peoples points in order to try and undermine their overall argument, you could try putting forward your case and make a point or two of your own?

It would be good to see the substance of what you have to say about this (thats not in response to someone elses post I mean).

wes

Morlar wrote: »

No one mentioned overnight or 'for no good reason' - assuming that there is ever 'a good reason' for sharia law or islamic fundamentalism.

So, I take it you see some sort of thread toward an Islamic state in Turkey? What are these trends? Are there any at all?

Turkey doesn't look to be dumping there secular democracy any time soon. From what I can see it has passed quite a few hurdles recently, which has shown that there democracy is quite strong.

djpbarry

Morlar wrote: »

70,000,000 is a lot of people - even 5 or 10% of that many being politicised or even potentially politicised islamists would be too many in my view.

Unlikely based on this year’s election results. The Felicity Party, the largest Islamist party in Turkey, received just 2.3% of the vote. To put that in perspective, Sinn Féin received 6.9% of the first-preference votes in the Irish general election this year. Does that mean that Ireland is teetering on the brink of a nationalist revolution?

Morlar wrote: »

Not yet

According to last year's census, there are about 32,500 Muslims in Ireland. Let's be ridiculously pessimistic and say that 25% of them are fundamentalists. You think that 8,000 people are going to form a majority government in a country of over 4.2 million?!?

Morlar wrote: »

Your confusing cheap package operators with tolerance and moderation - acceptance of minorities, homosexuals and so on - also womens rights and religious freedoms.

I don't really see what you're getting at here? My point was that if Turkey is as intolerant as you are claiming, then they wouldn't be receiving so many visitors.

Gay sex between consenting adults in private is not a crime in Turkey. Istanbul in particular has a very open gay scene. As for women's rights, Turkey was one of the first countries in the world to give full political rights to women. Turkey was one of the first countries to elect a female prime minister, something which has yet to happen in Ireland. Turkish women have the right to abortions in the first 10 weeks of pregnancy and the right to contraceptive medicine (paid for by the state), rights which Irish women do not have. Turkish women have the right to initiate and obtain a divorce, a right still not recognized in Malta, an EU country.

Morlar wrote: »

Perhaps, instead of cherrypicking other peoples points in order to try and undermine their overall argument, you could try putting forward your case and make a point or two of your own?

It would be good to see the substance of what you have to say about this (thats not in response to someone elses post I mean).

I have already stated my beliefs on the subject:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54594184&postcount=11

You, on the other hand, have offered little more than an argument consisting of “they’re Muslim and therefore not to be trusted”.

Morlar

djpbarry wrote: »

Unlikely based on this year’s election results. The Felicity Party, the largest Islamist party in Turkey, received just 2.3% of the vote. To put that in perspective, Sinn Féin received 6.9% of the first-preference votes in the Irish general election this year. Does that mean that Ireland is teetering on the brink of a nationalist revolution?

2.3% of the vote in a country with a population of 70,000,000 represents a substantial number you will agree.

Its also a lot more than a party the size of Sinn Fein. Thats of course ignoring reality and assuming that the 2.3 % would be the total figure of those who would be in favour of, for example, sharia law. Or some other incompatible facet of islam like mandatory veiling of women. It is also assuming that this figure is locked in position and not likely to increase in reaction to world events.

djpbarry wrote: »

According to last year's census, there are about 32,500 Muslims in Ireland. Let's be ridiculously pessimistic and say that 25% of them are fundamentalists. You think that 8,000 people are going to form a majority government in a country of over 4.2 million?!?

I wouldnt agree that a figure of 25% is ridiculously pessimistic you really are trying to make it sound incredibly unlikely - yet as mentioned we already have a moderator on boards.ie who believes that even the most contemptible aspects of sharia law -ie stoning adulterous women to death is acceptable in principle. Not that ridiculously unlikely imo.

I dont know of anyone who accepts that a figure of 30k muslims in roi is an accurate figure. Not all muslims would have answered the census and the number today to when the census was taken are different. There would be no point dragging the discussion down this alleyway - lets agree not to agree on the precise number of mulsims in ireland for the moment as it is irrelevant to the current discussion. We are talking about Turkey in the eu not the most recent census figure for muslims in Ireland.

There are more dangers to introducing millions of fundamentalist muslims (or even potentially fundamentalist muslims) into europe and expecting a cohesive constructive integration than that 'they might form majority governments'.

Ask the people of london or madrid if they think the only dangers presented by islamic fundamentalism are that they 'might form majority governments'.

The danger of them forming majority government does not lie in the countries like Ireland where large numbers will settle it lies in their homecountry. You either deliberately or accidentally missed this point.

djpbarry wrote: »

I don't really see what you're getting at here? My point was that if Turkey is as intolerant as you are claiming, then they wouldn't be receiving so many visitors.

Cheap package holidays do not equal a tolerant country with an admirable human rights record. Ask the next egyptian person you meet if you dont believe me. You putting the turkish holiday business forward as a reason for why turkey should join the eu is not as impressive as you might think. imo.

djpbarry wrote: »

I have already stated my beliefs on the subject:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54594184&postcount=11

I said that so far you have cherry picked other peoples points to respond to as an attempt to undermine their argument without outlining your own position. In response to this - you posted a link to your post where you cherry picked other peoples points to respond to.

djpbarry wrote: »

You, on the other hand, have offered little more than an argument consisting of “they’re Muslim and therefore not to be trusted”.

That would be your innacurate characterisation of the discussion so far.

mox54

I think we should allow Russia join the EU before Turkey and besides, they need to sort out Cyprus first because the Turks have a serious issue with a current EU member nation over the Island and we should not even begin to consider them until they make moves on this!!!!!!!!.

Basically, I say NO or NON!!

wes

mox54 wrote: »

I think we should allow Russia join the EU before Turkey and besides, they need to sort out Cyprus first because the Turks have a serious issue with a current EU member nation over the Island and we should not even begin to consider them until they make moves on this!!!!!!!!.

Basically, I say NO or NON!!

Sorting out Cyprus is already a condition on the Turks joining. So they can't join unless this is sorted out.

wes

Morlar wrote: »

2.3% of the vote in a country with a population of 70,000,000 represents a substantial number you will agree.

Its also a lot more than a party the size of Sinn Fein. Thats of course ignoring reality and assuming that the 2.3 % would be the total figure of those who would be in favour of, for example, sharia law. Or some other incompatible facet of islam like mandatory veiling of women. It is also assuming that this figure is locked in position and not likely to increase in reaction to world events.

Do you have evidence to suggest the number is bigger than that? Seems to me that election results would be the best indicator of support, as opposed to plucking numbers (or just saying theres bound to more) out of the air, or assuming things will get worse somehow in the future. Are there any trends to support this when the most recent election showing that the Islamist party took such a hammering.

Morlar wrote: »

Ask the people of london or madrid if they think the only dangers presented by islamic fundamentalism are that they 'might form majority governments'.

We could ask the people of Iraq the same question about US/UK aggression. Doesn't mean that people in the UK/US are all war mongers, waiting with baited breath to bomb another ME nation, in fact I would say most are decent people.

Morlar wrote: »

Cheap package holidays do not equal a tolerant country with an admirable human rights record. Ask the next egyptian person you meet if you dont believe me. You putting the turkish holiday business forward as a reason for why turkey should join the eu is not as impressive as you might think. imo.

What does Egypt have to do with Turkeys human rights record? Also, before joining the EU, Turkey would have to improve this greatly. They have a lot of laws to change before this happens. This is a pre-condition they have to meet before they join if I remember correctly.

Morlar wrote: »

That would be your innacurate characterisation of the discussion so far.

I would disagree.

djpbarry

Morlar wrote: »

Thats of course ignoring reality and assuming that the 2.3 % would be the total figure of those who would be in favour of, for example, sharia law.

So you are assuming that a large number of islamists in Turkey feel strongly about implementing sharia law, yet they didn't even bother to vote?

Morlar wrote: »

It is also assuming that this figure is locked in position and not likely to increase in reaction to world events.

All we have to go on are facts. They got 2.48% of the vote in 2002 - that's a decline of 0.14%.

Morlar wrote: »

I wouldnt agree that a figure of 25% is ridiculously pessimistic you really are trying to make it sound incredibly unlikely

You think that a large number of Muslims in Ireland are fundamentalists? Based on what?

I have to ask; do you actually know anyone from a Muslim background? Have you ever been to a Muslim country? Based on your posts here, I have to assume the answer to both of these questions is no.

Morlar wrote: »

I dont know of anyone who accepts that a figure of 30k muslims in roi is an accurate figure.

Why doesn't that surprise me - you seem unwilling to accept any facts or figures from any source.

Morlar wrote: »

There are more dangers to introducing millions of fundamentalist muslims (or even potentially fundamentalist muslims) into europe and expecting a cohesive constructive integration than that 'they might form majority governments'.

Germany has already received more immigrants from Turkey than any other country. As a result, 4% of the German population claim to be Muslim. I don't recall Germany ever having problems with Islamic fundamentalists.

Morlar wrote: »

Ask the people of london or madrid if they think the only dangers presented by islamic fundamentalism are that they 'might form majority governments'.

I suggest you do the same. I spend a great deal of time in London - Islamic fundamentalism is something that rarely comes up in conversation. It is not something that people are unduly worried about.

Morlar wrote: »

You putting the turkish holiday business forward as a reason for why turkey should join the eu is not as impressive as you might think.

I did nothing of the sort.

Morlar wrote: »

I said that so far you have cherry picked other peoples points to respond to as an attempt to undermine their argument without outlining your own position. In response to this - you posted a link to your post where you cherry picked other peoples points to respond to.

I shall repeat myself, just for you :rolleyes:

The key issues, in my opinion, are:

1. the non-recognition of Cyprus as a state by the Turks
2. the closed border between Turkey and Armenia (although I would regard this as less of an issue)
3. Human rights abuses in south-eastern Turkey (in the context of conflict with the PKK). While the Turkish government has made great strides in recent years on this issue (a fact recognised by Amnesty International), there still remains much to be done in terms of implementation, although this has been hampered by the current military operation in the region.

I would hardly regard [1] and [2] as insurmountable. As for [3], progress is unlikely to be made until the conflict with the PKK is resolved.

Morlar

djpbarry wrote: »

So you are assuming that a large number of islamists in Turkey feel strongly about implementing sharia law, yet they didn't even bother to vote?

Well isnt that kind of like saying that the only republicans in ireland vote sinn fein ? People vote for strategic reasons too. To say
that the sinn fein vote represents all republican sentiment in the country is either being misleading or not very clever imo. This would be the equivalent of saying that only 2+ % of turks have islamist sympathies which would be a bit simplistic in my view.

djpbarry wrote: »

All we have to go on are facts. They got 2.48% of the vote in 2002 - that's a decline of 0.14%.

So you now agree with the point that however reliable one parties voting record is as a guage of islamist sentiment in turkey that those numbers are subject to change.

djpbarry wrote: »

You think that a large number of Muslims in Ireland are fundamentalists? Based on what?

It would be my opinion that there are some who are yes. This would depend on how you classify 'fundamentalist' - agreeeing with the uglier aspects of sharia law would be enough to cause concern in my view. And in previous discussions on boards its clear that some are in that frame of mind.

djpbarry wrote: »

I have to ask; do you actually know anyone from a Muslim background? Have you ever been to a Muslim country? Based on your posts here, I have to assume the answer to both of these questions is no.

Not that its any of your business but yes and yes. Which would make you wrong on both assumptions - not that that has the remotest relevance to a discussion about the potential consequences of turkey joining the european union.

djpbarry wrote: »

Why doesn't that surprise me - you seem unwilling to accept any facts or figures from any source.

Ok so you realistically think that there are 30k muslims in roi - I told you we could agree to disagree on that rather than divert the conversation.

djpbarry wrote: »

Germany has already received more immigrants from Turkey than any other country. As a result, 4% of the German population claim to be Muslim. I don't recall Germany ever having problems with Islamic fundamentalists.

Yes there are approx 2 million turks in germany so you accept that this could also spell large scale immigration. As for germany not having problems with islamic fundamentalists the 9/11 hijackers were in part made up of islamists based in germany.

djpbarry wrote: »

I suggest you do the same. I spend a great deal of time in London - Islamic fundamentalism is something that rarely comes up in conversation. It is not something that people are unduly worried about.

I have also lived and worked in london and some people there would disagree with you on that but I take your word for it you have never met a londoner who is concerned about islamic fundamentalism.

djpbarry wrote: »

I did nothing of the sort.

That is precisely what you said. It was said in the thread that the levels of intolerance in turkey would be one reason for them not joining - you made the ridiculous point that if they were so intolerant they would not get so many holiday visitors.

Meaning that obviously they do get a lot of holiday visitors and so therefore are NOT intolerant and should be allowed to join.


It was pointed out to you that egypt also gets lots of visitors as a way of to show that there is not necessarily a link between a tourist industry and
human rights record or levels of tolerance.

djpbarry wrote: »

I shall repeat myself, just for you :rolleyes.

I think you have made yourself clear enough without the need to repeat yourself.

djpbarry

Morlar wrote: »

Well isnt that kind of like saying that the only republicans in ireland vote sinn fein ?

You can second-guess election results until the cows come home - it's not going to get us anywhere. I think election results are a pretty good indicator of the population’s political allegiance.

Morlar wrote: »

So you now agree with the point that however reliable one parties voting record is as a guage of islamist sentiment in turkey that those numbers are subject to change.

Actually, I was making the point that this particular party's election performance in 2007 was even worse than it was in 2002 (and it was pretty dismal then).

Morlar wrote: »

It would be my opinion that there are some who are yes.

How many is some? And, again, what are you basing this on?

Here's a poll conducted by the Indo last year:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/its-home-away-from-home-but-were-glad-to-be-here-65197.html
It's not exactly comprehensive, but it gives you an idea at least.

A notable extract:
"There has been fierce debate in other EU countries over Muslim-only schools, but the Muslims surveyed strongly disapproved of solely Islamic education for their children. Just 13pc backed such a system."

Morlar wrote: »

Not that its any of your business but yes and yes. Which would make you wrong on both assumptions - not that that has the remotest relevance to a discussion about the potential consequences of turkey joining the european union.

Well, actually it is relevant, as your entire argument seems to be based on opinion rather than fact - I wanted to establish whether or not you had been exposed to Muslim culture.

Morlar wrote: »

Yes there are approx 2 million turks in germany so you accept that this could also spell large scale immigration.

I never said otherwise, although it should be noted that large-scale Turkish migration to Germany only began following a formal invitation from the German state. These Turks were invited to work in factories in urban regions, which lead to the formation of the Turkish communities you refer to as "Ghettos". Your claim that Turks have not integrated into German society is debatable; there have been many Turkish Germans of note (Mehmet Scholl comes to mind). Integration has been hampered by the Germans rather than the Turks, who have only recently agreed to citizenship for Turks born in Germany. Finally, given the large number of Turks in Germany, if religious extremism was such an issue, why are 90% of them consistently voting for the SDP?

Morlar wrote: »

It was said in the thread that the levels of intolerance in turkey would be one reason for them not joining - you made the ridiculous point that if they were so intolerant they would not get so many holiday visitors.

Turkey's supposed intolerance is an opinion of yours, an opinion that you have yet to back up with any facts. I have already pointed out the flaws in your claims that Turkish homosexuals and Turkish women are deprived of rights. In fact, it could be argued that Turkish women have more rights than Irish women do.

I am not denying that there have been, for example, religiously-motivated attacks in Turkey, although they are predominantly confined to the South-East of the country.

Taking the example you cited in Malatya, the perpetrators were arrested and sentenced for a range of crimes. I am trying to illustrate the point that the views held by these criminals are certainly not main-stream.

professore

extragon wrote: »

The notion of a Europe we can identify with would be stamped out, with the eventual aim of reducing the EU to the status of a free trade zone, with no political identity - the Turks, as super nationalists, would lead the way forward here - or ability to independently regulate international capitalism.

That in itself would be no bad thing. Better than it is now when the electorate says no and then have to vote again on the same thing until they say yes ????

brianthebard

djpbarry wrote: »

Acknowledge, yes. Retribution, no. The Armenian genocide was committed by the Ottoman Empire, not by Turkey. How much did other member states have to pay for their past?

Germany still pays reparation to Israel. The USA had to give reparations the the native indians. I'm not saying that Turkey should have to pay billions to Armenia, but acknowledging the genocide and that Armenia is a sovereign nation would be a very good start.

BULLER

Turkey joining the EU would signal the end of the EU. It's as simple as that. They are culturally incompatible. Every country that has joined the EU so far as had one thing in common, they are very much of European identity. The fact is that Turkey is not. It's government, it's people, it's value system is very much different to that of the current member states. If they were to join, I believe some current member states would withdraw. Turkeys population is in the region of 70 million. A massive muslim population would flood Europe if given free travel and working permits. This is not disputable. If they joined the EU they would have to be given the same rights as every other nation. The fact that the US, which fears a European Super State, wants them to join says it all. Bringing them into the fold would ruin everything we have tried to create. Integration would be impossible.
I restate, Turkey joining the EU would signal the end of the EU as a political power. The EU is not a world organisation. Turkey is a middle eastern country, and that's where it should stay.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Buller I agree with you Turkey should not be in the European Union. The European Union has recently grown from 15 to 27 member states. The European Union is supposed to help develop its members states. How can it do that if 12 member states joined in the last 3 years. It appears almost as if Expansion not growth has become the main issue in Europe.

Furthermore Europe must have a common shared value scheme across its member states and Turkey clearly has a different value scheme. They may be a secular state however they have a greater religious leaning than any member state.

The Turks have a vastly different value system to us in Europe it is my belief that these value systems are incompatible. Maybe in 30 or 40 years the Turkish value system may be such that we can bring them in however it is not at the moment.

As Cyprus a EU member state is split in two with half being under military occupation by Turkey it is my belief that we can not admit as a member state a nation which occupies land belonging to a member state. Such an act would be an infringment of the soverignity of Cyprus.

fly_agaric

Tea drinker wrote: »

What do we need or want Turkey in the EU for? Why is the UK always (publicly anyway) pushing the entry of turkey?

The fact that the EU-loving UK are so gung-ho for Turkey to join should tell one how their entry is likely to "benefit" the EU.:D

djpbarry

brianthebard wrote: »

I'm not saying that Turkey should have to pay billions to Armenia, but acknowledging the genocide and that Armenia is a sovereign nation would be a very good start.

Yep, absolutely.

fly_agaric wrote: »

The fact that the EU-loving UK are so gung-ho for Turkey to join should tell one how their entry is likely to "benefit" the EU.:D

I would imagine the US and UK are pushing hard for Turkey's accession to the EU purely for military reasons. Having said that, is there anything further to be gained in the that context, considering Turkey is already a member of NATO?

AngryHippie

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

As Cyprus a EU member state is split in two with half being under military occupation by Turkey it is my belief that we can not admit as a member state a nation which occupies land belonging to a member state. Such an act would be an infringment of the soverignity of Cyprus.

Absolutely, Deal breaker number 2

Moriarty

.. which, as has been mentioned a number of times in this thread already, is part of the pre-conditions under which Turkey's application for entry will be considered. It is stated EU policy that Turkey would not be elligable for entry until the Cypriot issue is resolved. This seems to have passed a lot of people by.

The EU is not looking to admit Turkey tomorrow. The EU has offered talks on the admittance of turkey into the EU if it fulfils the many requirements for reform which the EU have placed down. If/when Turkey is granted entry into the EU, it will not be the Turkey of today.

The EU is a great stabilising influence for Turkey. It has been Turkey's aim for decades to eventually gain full membership of the EEC/EU and it's the driving force behind so many reforms in that country.

fly_agaric

djpbarry wrote: »

Yep, absolutely.

I would imagine the US and UK are pushing hard for Turkey's accession to the EU purely for military reasons. Having said that, is there anything further to be gained in the that context, considering Turkey is already a member of NATO?

No, I think that the UK just want to jam lots of different countries into the EU (whether they belong or not) to ensure the various common institutions will suffer a nasty case of permenant constipation leading to irrelevance.

Ideally (for the UK), the EU would revert to just being a massive free trade zone (the bigger the better). Maybe there'll be a tack-on impotent talking-shop where alot of platitudes are mouthed but nothing actually gets decided upon.

I'd also think the above sort of "EU" is alot closer to what the US would be comfortable dealing with (or ignoring!:)) in the future also.

BULLER

fly_agaric wrote: »

No, I think that the UK just want to jam lots of different countries into the EU (whether they belong or not) to ensure the various common institutions will suffer a nasty case of permenant constipation leading to irrelevance.

Ideally (for the UK), the EU would revert to just being a massive free trade zone (the bigger the better). Maybe there'll be a tack-on impotent talking-shop where alot of platitudes are mouthed but nothing actually gets decided upon.

I'd also think the above sort of "EU" is alot closer to what the US would be comfortable dealing with (or ignoring!:)) in the future also.

Spot on, hence their insistance on Turkey joining...

AckwelFoley

Turkey is not ready to be parT of the EU, both economicaly and socially, particularly eastern turkey.

We'll take Albania Instead.