Electricians are u sick of it

jasonos

Hi I'm sorry for the title i couldnt think of anything else better. im a sparks qualified a good few years now and im sick of it. pullin cables (4x240's today 3-150 metre runs) glanding cables, tray, trunking anything electrical im sick of it.
its labour intensive, going through attics, up ladders, climbing scaffolding im sick to the neck of it.
So anyway i was just wondering has anyone gone on from been a sparky to better things i would like to no is there light at the end of the tunnel.
At the moment im doing a night time course a city and guilds in electrical engineering its a cert course but really i can only see a maintenance job in that and the money is worse for those jobs.
can anyone tell me is it possible to maybe get a degree in electrial engineering part time
any sparks tht have done courses that have helped them get better paying and less ****tier than electrical

stepbar

Nobody ever said being a sparky was a glamourous job Why don't you go out on your own? You could start by doing nixers on a sat or something like that.

johnnyrotten

My brother in law was out of his time 2 years and decided to do Electrical Engineering full time which took 2 years in Kevin Street.
He now has an Office Job designing electrical drawings
What made him do it? He was working with a 60 year old in the cold pulling cables etc and said he did'nt want t end up that way

jasonos

i dont want to come across as been selfish , i too dont want to be that 60 year old man pulling cables and im slowly going down that route. so i enrolled in september doing electrical engineering but its only a city and guilds cert course. its 6 hours a week for the year. then i can go on and do the diploma course.
has anyone had any experience doing these type courses or has anyone done another type course maybe cad or electrical safety

Armin_Tamzarian

You could go and do the Irish equivalent of BS2391 and become qualified to inspect and test electrical installations.
It's very boring and repetitive but the pay's better and in involves almost zero manual labour.

Then there's also the option of moving into a role as and Installation Engineer, i.e. working on security systems, fire alarms, cat-5 systems, etc.
It is possible to get a job as say a Fire Alarm Commissioning Engineer if you've just got Electrician's qualifications.
The pay isn't much better but it's a much cleaner job with
better security and no real heavy work.

I don't know about over here but in England there's loads of different qualifications you can get in respect to Fire Alarms.
I knew one guy who was earning over £100,000STG per annum working on Fire Alarms.

madson

When i finished my time i spent another year working on the sites, i too didn't want to be like the 55 year old that i served my time with so i got a pretty good job as an equipment technician. I'm earning 15-20k more than if i was still working on the sites and i get to travel to different parts of america for training and working in places my employer has over there.
Don't think i'd ever go back on the sites.

jasonos

thanks for the all the replies. i saw those guys commisioning fire alarms and it looks interesting, its breaking into it i would say is the hard part,
i keep an eye on the jobs on fasbank which has a very comprehensive list of jobs. I would be thinking of what kind of course would it take to get into electrical estimating or project management.

fishdog

Installation Engineer, i.e. working on security systems, fire alarms

They are not "engineers". No official qualification is required to work on fire alarm systems or security systems. You just need to be in the PSA (Private Security Authority) for the latter and the NSAI for the former. I think to do this work full time is beneath most good electricians. They generally call themselves engineers, but if they had a degree they would not be on their tools. I know many alarm/cat5/security systems "engineers" with no qualifications at all apart form "safe pass".


jasonos I know how you feel!! See my PM

Armin_Tamzarian

Commissioning Fire Alarms is pretty handy.
Once you've worked on one pretty large fire alarm system and you understand how that works you'll find that all other systems are very similar.
If you want to get into this you should try to get involved in the 1st fixing of a fire alarm.
When the commissioning guy comes out he usually gets the spark who
done most of the 1st fix to go round with him to give him a hand.
You'd be surprised how much you could learn by just giving one of
these guys a hand for a couple of days.
There usually dead on and won't mind explaining everything to you.

fishdog

Commissioning Fire Alarms is pretty handy.

I know, I have done it. Boring though! Imagine doing that day in day out!:(

Call outs as well. Drawings lost/incorrect. Nightmare!:eek:

Armin_Tamzarian

fishdog wrote: »

They are not "engineers". No official qualification is required to work on fire alarm systems or security systems. You just need to be in the PSA (Private Security Authority) for the latter and the NSAI for the former.

Their job title is usually "Installation Engineer".
They don't need an Engineering degree, membership of the PSA or membership of the NSAI.
No qualification is required although a new FÁS apprenticship
in Alarm installation, etc is starting up soon.

On a side note, technically speaking you don't need any qualifications to
work as an electrician.
Even BS:7671 16th Edition of Wiring Regulations states that
to work on electrical installaions you must be a "competent person".
As far as I know you only need an official qualification to test / inspect / sign off on jobs such as the wiring of a new house etc.

jasonos

Armin_Tamzarian wrote: »

Commissioning Fire Alarms is pretty handy.
Once you've worked on one pretty large fire alarm system and you understand how that works you'll find that all other systems are very similar.
If you want to get into this you should try to get involved in the 1st fixing of a fire alarm.
When the commissioning guy comes out he usually gets the spark who
done most of the 1st fix to go round with him to give him a hand.
You'd be surprised how much you could learn by just giving one of
these guys a hand for a couple of days.
There usually dead on and won't mind explaining everything to you.

Hi thanks for the advice i have 1st and 2nd fixed fire alarms 100's of time its pretty easy tis only loop in loop out mostly. i would like to break into the world of engineering or something that would benifit my electrical background.
its not easy. im at a loss to be honest. i want to stay away from the equivalent to electrical ie fire alarm eingineer/door acess/security alarm engineers.

Armin_Tamzarian

Sounds like you really should go and study at night for a Cert / Diploma / Degree in Electrical Engineering. I'd imagine that the DITs are pretty good for that sort of stuff.

Then you could be the guy that thinks up the electrical design for buildings and you could walk round site in a suit muttering about regs and threatening to have everyone sacked.

jasonos

lol im so jealous of those guys, while im up there hanging out of some 24 inch cable rack im mutterin to myself feckin bastids with their clean suits and shiny boots, why didnt i study for me leavin cert, if only i knew what was ahead of me

jasonos

Armin_Tamzarian wrote: »

Sounds like you really should go and study at night for a Cert / Diploma / Degree in Electrical Engineering. I'd imagine that the DITs are pretty good for that sort of stuff.

Then you could be the guy that thinks up the electrical design for buildings and you could walk round site in a suit muttering about regs and threatening to have everyone sacked.

oh and im doing a city and guilds in electrical engineering. but i dont think that would get me far to be honest

Stoner

To the best of my knowledge you have four options

1)
fulltime in kevin street for their Electrical Services Engineering Degree, this is a handy degree IMO, I've seen some of the course work, I know people doing it and the maths is relatively easy etc, the guys I know who have done it dont like me saying it but they really dont hit on difficult engineering subjects IMHO.

2)
Kevin Street also offer this course part time, but you have to attend college 3-4 nights a week, this is difficult to do, not the actual course work, just getting into college and staying awake. ( I know I've done it )

3)
Next you have the IEI charted engineering exams, you can do these as a distance learning. All I can say about these exams is that they are poxy, I have three of them , but i switched options (you need 6 for a professional degree, I have some of the power and electrical machines and drives ones, they were difficult you need to cover a huge amount of work, you have no idea about what may or may not come up in an exam)--- Stay away, even though it harder then other degrees it was difficult to do a Masters from it in a university when i did them.

4)
Next you have city and guilds via distance engineering. this is a good course, just get your head around the credits and how to line up your subjects. I've seen this course work to and it is better then Kevins street IMO and easier then the IEI while being more up to date too.

I did distance education in DCU for a Bsc and a Msc and it works for me.

I've tried most of the combos of work and study. I've come to the conclusing that if you spend the time studing distance education notes as you would do just getting in and out of college you would be fine. so distance all the way for me as leaving work is not an option.

I know some people who went straight into second year of the electrical servine eng in Kevins street from their apprenticeship i.e they'll give you a freebe year, this degree is really for sparks TBH.

I think you end up with an Ordinary Degree in Engineering after 2 years and an extra year will get you an honours degree.

there must be other options, but thats four anyway.

BTW dont listen to the officials in Kevins street talking about how you can do things in 2 years if you are good enough etc. Try to find people who have completed the courses, there is an element of the sales rep to some of these colleges and how they get people on baord

I know a few sparks doing the level 7 B.Eng online with ITSligo.You can progress to a Level 8 B.Eng from there.

http://www.itsligo.ie/current_students/online_groups.html

fishdog

Their job title is usually "Installation Engineer".

That is a tilte that they give themselves. I know petrol pump attendents that call themselves "fuel injection engineers".

Engineer = higher hourly rate!!

They don't need an Engineering degree, membership of the PSA or membership of the NSAI.

Correct they dont need a degree, but without it they are not "engineers" no matter what title they give themselves. I dont have a degree and I did hundreads of alarms. No amount of alarm installing experience will make me an engineer.

To install intruder alarms you need to be in the PSA and the NSAI or equivelent to NSAI. I dont agree with this, but it is the law.

No qualification is required although a new FÁS apprenticship
in Alarm installation, etc is starting up soon.

Somehow I do not see it being a full time 4 year apprentiship, therefore not as high a qualification as being a sparks. People with no official training will always install alarms, because they are so simple. It is always cheaper to use non trades people to do this work. I learnt how to install alarms by reading the installation manuals and completing a free 1 day course. I dont see the qualification as being worth much.

An electrician installing alarm systems full time is like a mechanic becoming a full time tyre fitter.

On a side note, technically speaking you don't need any qualifications to
work as an electrician.

In the real world in Ireland if you had a person on a large site with no trades qualification, therefore no union card etc. they would not be working as an electrician. The only exception is electrical apprentices.

Even BS:7671 16th Edition of Wiring Regulations states that
to work on electrical installaions you must be a "competent person".

Im sure you are correct if we were in the UK. We use the ETCI regulations here.

In practice generally speaking, apart from small domestic work electricians work as electricians in Ireland. It would not be a very good idea having non qualified people doing this work, alarm systems do not operate with a lethal voltage and are not very complicated.

fishdog

fulltime in kevin street for their Electrical Services Engineering Degree, this is a handy degree IMO, I've seen some of the course work, I know people doing it and the maths is relatively easy etc, the guys I know who have done it dont like me saying it but they really dont hit on difficult engineering subjects IMHO.

I know sevral doing it also. I almsot decided to do it. I am doing a degree in electrical and control systems, 3 years. For a qualified electrician it is 2 years full time. I honestly dont know how hard it is, but I do know that they all seem to get good jobs from it, that is the important thing. Collage year is quite short, from end of September to mid May, with long easter and Christmas holidays.This makes 2 years alot shorter!

Next you have city and guilds via distance engineering.

Which ones do you mean?
I did some of them, 236 parts 2 and 3, did me no good when looking for a more interesting job.

BTW dont listen to the officials in Kevins street talking about how you can do things in 2 years if you are good enough etc. Try to find people who have completed the courses, there is an element of the sales rep to some of these colleges and how they get people on baord

Some do it in 2 years, I know sevral doing the electrical services degree. Come into the college yourself and talk to them. They also offer you the oppertunity to meet past students that are now working in industry, then you get it from the horse's mouth.

Jnealon

When I was in Kevin Street there were around 6 or 7 sparks on my course. Most were trying to get out of the trade and move on to something else ie automation, R&D consulting etc. While some did, a lot of them ended up back on the tools where they started

fishdog

When I was in Kevin Street there were around 6 or 7 sparks on my course

What course were you doing?

Most were trying to get out of the trade and move on to something else

There are 4 sparks on mine. They are all sick of sparking too.

Darren R

Hey Jasonos
Iknow exactly how you feel seriously.I took redundancy a few months ago because i was sick of working on building sites.Since then i've just been doing nixers and been earning good money.But at the end of the day its not really about the money I think if i went out on my own i would stand a good chance of making it but the thoughts of doing that work for the rest of my life...no thanks.I've been to a few interviews for service technicians jobs and so on but the money they offer is bad some as bad as third year rate.Would be really interested in getting into panel building but it is very hard to get into.So just to let you know your not the only one in this position.Who would of thought it would be this hard totry and better yourself:)

eoghan.geraghty

I felt the same as you a few years ago jasonos.
I thought industrial automation or instrumentation would be good.
Did 2 courses in plc's with fas in baldoyle, waste of time, found it very hard to get interviews even without experience.
Considered a part time course for engineering, 8 years to get your degree part time 3 evenings a week. If you can sacrifice that much of your life more power to you, I couldn't.
So I signed up to a part time diploma in engineering, sounds much like what you're looking at, aimed at maintenance techs, you know them in the clean gear, briefcases full of shiny screwdrivers and multimeters. On the first evening the lecturer told the class that on completion a student could earn as much as 30 to 35k pa, so I left, I was earning that as an apprentice with country money.
Anyway, I stuck with the sparking and am now out on my own and hope to start an apprentice next year.
I found that I'm happier working for myself and the work I used to hate doing I don't mind as much, I just wish I had more time to do it.
Just my rambling as a bloke who was in your position not so long ago.
One thing I'd definitely recommend is get away from that cable pulling and tray,trunking etc:D

jasonos

wow that made some interesting reading. kevin street isnt an option for me as i live 100 miles away from there. the distant learning would be an option alright but how easy is it to gain access to these courses.
am i wasting my time doing the course that im doing ELECTRICAL & ELECTRONIC ENGINEERING TECHNICIANS cert course its city and guilds. when i have completed this course i can go on and do the diploma which is also 6 hours a week 1 year long. i wish i was living in dublin now with courses like that in kevin street.
anyway ive gota go lol do my course it starts at 7. one thing i do no is when i asked our course tutor he said it gains u access to the degree course if u have done the diploma. but what degree courses in engineering is there in wexford/waterford that do it part time

Stoner

TBH my advice is to get as highly qualified as possible in as short a time as possible , with as little effort as possible

You get all these qualifications, and you use about 5% of them in practice. It is how you cope and pick up the actual working concepts that will determine if you are going to be good at something IMO.

there are more options out there then ever before.

BIG-SLICK-POKER

I left the trade to become a Dj and started an events company and Poker Company have two card rooms also .. I just felt the trade was there but it was getting to saturated and too many people were qualifying .. I really think the bublle will really burst in the next year as teh building trade Grinds to a hault

eoghan.geraghty

I just felt it wasn't for me really jason.
Hope I wasn't being overly negative.
I think being a sparks and having the course under your belt will give you an edge and possibly higher income.
Try this, get onto techstaff.ie and tell them where you're at. I still get mails from them about jobs. They'll be more able than most to tell you whats out there career wise, and doing some interviews now might tell you if you're going down the right road.
Any interviewer should be impressed by you doing the course rather than saying you want to trty a new area and haven't done anything about it.

Armin_Tamzarian

fishdog wrote: »

That is a tilte that they give themselves..

Actually the job title of Installation / Commissioning Engineer is usually given by the employer not the employee.
Just look at some job specs on any recruitment website.

To install intruder alarms you need to be in the PSA and the NSAI or equivelent to NSAI.

You don't have to be a member of either.
If your employer's a registered member that's enough.[/quote]

Im sure you are correct if we were in the UK. We use the ETCI regulations here.

ECTI regs are based on BS:7691[/quote]

In the real world in Ireland if you had a person on a large site with no trades qualification, therefore no union card etc. they would not be working as an electrician. The only exception is electrical apprentices.

If you spend much time working in the electrical industry in Dublin you'll see that roughly 25% of people employed as Electricians aren't fully qualified. Some don't complete their formal training and some have none at all. That's not including all the electricians working in Ireland with foreign qualifications.

RE the distance learning degree in Elec Eng from DCU.
What are the job prospects like with this degree?

Captain Chaos

I feel the same way as the OP and I've only being doing this for 3 and a half years. I did my leaving, went to DIT for a year and dropped out, did that twice and now a 2nd year ap sparks even though I have been on sites for 3 and a half years.

I'm starting to whish I stuck it out in college. Problem is I didn't know what I wanted to do then and I still don't now. I'm only doing this because I'm getting paid to learn a trade that will let me travel to other countries.

But spending that past few months on 3km cable runs in the airport has made me think about things. My company also does data comms and its an area I am a bit interested in. I spend most of my time on the comms work with CAT5/6 and fibre optics but I keep the app sparking going because of more cash at the end of the day than the data techs.

I have been sent on a course for the installation of CAT6A to a high standard etc, and I'm due to do a fibre splicing course but basically I want to get my qualification and get out of the donkey work.

I'm looking at my options and I think I'll head down the tech road and try to get a nice number looking after servers in a nice warm office instead of pulling cables for 12hrs a day, 7 days a weeks in the freezing cold for the past few months. I knew what to expect when I first started as a sparks but I've nearly had enough at this stage.

I'd be happy if I could get some direction in employment in an area that I'm interested in, regardless of what courses I will need to do to get there. I did my leaving 5 years ago and I'm still not sure where I'm going, I feel like I'm wasting my time and not really getting anywhere.

kevin123123

I was qualified at about 24 and was sick of it too,so deceided to join the Gardai about three years ago,now I'm 31.Best thing I ever did.On my unit of 12, there are 3 of us sparks and often do "foxers"(nixers) on days off which you get 34 days a year. another lad is a carpenter. Just had to live on crap wages while training but worth it now.

fishdog

Actually the job title of Installation / Commissioning Engineer is usually given by the employer not the employee.
Just look at some job specs on any recruitment website

It is irrelevent who gives the job the title. The point is you are an engineer if you have the qualifications to be an engineer regardless of anything else.

If I advertise a job for "astronauts" and you work for me does that make you an astronaut? I dont think so.

You don't have to be a member of either.
If your employer's a registered member that's enough

Correct, but the company does. My point was you do not need any qualification at all to install alarm systems.

ECTI regs are based on BS:7691

They are different in many respects. For example in the UK houses do not have a main switch fuse. In Ireland you are expected to use the ETCI regulations regardless of what the regulations are in the UK.

If you spend much time working in the electrical industry in Dublin you'll see that roughly 25% of people employed as Electricians aren't fully qualified.

I have spent yearrs working in Dublin, (about 8) for Mercury Engineering so I know a thing o two about the type of person employed on large sites. These people that are not fully qualified are apprentices, they are working under supervision. They also get formal training in college and are subjected to a lenghtly assesment. In my experience they would account for far more than 25%. That is different to a "handy man" making off a 4 x 240 into a panel!

I agree that some unqualified people work on domestic installations, it is not a good idea but it happens.

Some don't complete their formal training and some have none at all

If they dont complete the apprentiship they dont qualify. If they dont qualify they will not get a union card and therefore will not work on any large site in Ireland. Look back at my post, I specified "large sites".

That's not including all the electricians working in Ireland with foreign qualifications.

If they are up to standard what is wrong with that?? I worked abroad. I have worked with many foreign electricians that were very good.