Electricians are u sick of it

Armin_Tamzarian

I have spent yearrs working in Dublin, (about 8) for Mercury Engineering so I know a thing o two about the type of person employed on large sites. These people that are not fully qualified are apprentices, they are working under supervision. They also get formal training in college and are subjected to a lenghtly assesment. In my experience they would account for far more than 25%. That is different to a "handy man" making off a 4 x 240 into a panel!

Mercury is one of the more reputable Elec Contractors out there.
They have good standards and work practices, this is not the same for so many others.

If they dont qualify they will not get a union card and therefore will not work on any large site in Ireland. Look back at my post, I specified "large sites".

This is a very naive statement. You don't need a union card to work on most large sites.
I've been on a large amount of the biggest jobs in Dublin over the past ten years and I've never seen a spark being asked to produce qualifications (except for Safe Pass).

A huge amount of electrical work is sub-contracted out these days and who the Sub-Contractor employs is up to themelves.
With things so cut-throat right now, standards of work and worker are at an all time low.
Contractors (Mercury included) have no problem subbing out all the labour on jobs once the price is cheap enough. The Contractor has no way of knowing what sort of qualifications the Sub-Contractors people have.
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If they are up to standard what is wrong with that?? I worked abroad. I have worked with many foreign electricians that were very good.

You've contradicted yourself here.
Foreign qualifications aren't officialy recognised here.
If people are working in Ireland with foreign qualifications then they
are technically working here as unqualified sparks.
I know a firm who recently lost out on a big job to a Polish Electrical firm.
The Polish sparks were getting paid €11 an hour, how can Irish lads compete with that, it's a disgrace.
I also seen the state of some of their work after they'd finished, unbelievably bad.

Some countries (such as Germany I think) don't wire in Rings or Radials,
they bring an individual wire to each point on a circuit from a central JB.
So you see, even if some German lad had qualifications in Germany
it doesn't mean he should be let loose on an Irish installation.

fishdog

Some countries (such as Germany I think) don't wire in Rings or Radials,
they bring an individual wire to each point on a circuit from a central JB.

I worked in Germany. I had to go by their regulations, just as foriegn electricians have to go by ours.

So you see, even if some German lad had qualifications in Germany
it doesn't mean he should be let loose on an Irish installation.

Specifications change form job to job. For example when I worked in Dublin Airport the earth conductor had to be the same size as the phase for a socket circuit. This was what was specified for that job. As electricians we had to learn this (and many other things) and adapt for that job. In a similar way a german electrician would adapt for an irish job. When I worked abroad I had to ensure that I complied with the regulations for that country.

Just because someone is qualified in a different country does not mean they are not qualified. I agree with you that some counties have a lower standard than us EG Holland, they tended to qualify in 2 years! The Germans are very good in my experience.

You've contradicted yourself here.
Foreign qualifications aren't officialy recognised here.

Who says foreign qualifications are not recognised here???
I said foreign regulations do not apply here that is quite different.

However I will say that not all foreign qualifications are recognised here.

Are you sugessting that only Irish electricians should be allowed to work here??

This is a very naive statement. You don't need a union card to work on most large sites.

As an electrician?? Are you joking?
Please name some, I would be interested. Are you saying that on these large sites they also have people working as electricians that are unqualified?? I find this hard to believe.

eoghan.geraghty

Ireland and several other countries have an agreement where each others trade qualifications are recognised across borders.
I worked in Germany and Holland as a sparks, as do many Irish guys.
Oh, they used radial circuits in those jobs, guess where nym-j comes from;)

I'm sure there are many sparks out there without their papers, particularly older guys who didn't have to go to tech, but I don't know where you pulled 25% from, remember we're not talking peasants, sorry apprentices:D
Since the standards based apprenticeship was introduced many many many ( that means I don't know exact year) years ago, you no longer get your card without passing all 7 phases making it harder for an unqualified guy to pass himself off.
I do agree about the situation with the polish guys is a disgrace though, they should have been paid the full union rate.

Armin_Tamzarian

I mentioned Germany as an example as I'd seen German fella's wiring (in NYMJ as it happens) and that's the way they were doing there circuits.

I'm not a racist just a realist.
It's perfectly acceptable for people from anywhere to work in Ireland.
It's not perfectly acceptable to bring over an entire crew of say 40 Polish / German / whatever sparks to do a job here.
How are they supposed to do things to Irish standards?
Also there's the whole point of Irish jobs being taken by cheaper foreign workers, cheers Bertie.
For a few years I saw Eastern European workers taking over all
the work in the area of erecting plasterboard, etc.
Now they're taking more and more jobs in all the other trades.
It's not their fault, they just want a job.
Trouble is that they can save x amount of money and go home wealthy.
But if we saved the same amount of money it wouldn't be half as valuable here as it would be over there.

RE the 25%, I just made that up (I did say roughly).
It would be really hard to know what percentage of people are actually qualified or not.
You've got so many people who just never passed their final phase exams
or people who claim to have full qualifications from the North, etc.
I've genuinely never seen anyone being asked to produce papers.

eoghan.geraghty

A Polish gang coming over here for a job doesn't bother me,if their qualifications are recognised, but they should be paid the full rate here in Ireland.
If sub union rates are being paid, then the TEEU should be looking to close the site.
Seeing as the TEEU seem to be only self serving thats not likely to happen.

OP does all this answer your question?

I've been asked to produce a union card once, and my craft cert once, different jobs.I agree it should happen every time though.

Armin_Tamzarian

eoghan.geraghty wrote: »

A Polish gang coming over here for a job doesn't bother me,if their qualifications are recognised, but they should be paid the full rate here in Ireland.

I agree entirely about the rates.
Foreign workers should be paid the same, then there wouldn't be any
initiative for employers to save money by exploiting foreign workers.

I still don't see any need for any gangs of foreign workers to be put onto jobs over here, unless there is a genuine labour shortage.
The motive is nearly always financial.
Irish jobs really need to be protected.

fishdog

How are they supposed to do things to Irish standards?

They work under supervision of people who know the spec and regulations for that job. That is what we all do. Specifications change from job to job.

I agree entirely about the rates.
Foreign workers should be paid the same, then there wouldn't be any
initiative for employers to save money by exploiting foreign workers.

We all agree about that.

You don't need a union card to work on most large sites.

As an electrician?? Are you joking?
Please name some, I would be interested. Are you saying that on these large sites they also have people working as electricians that are unqualified?? I find this hard to believe.

I've been asked to produce a union card once, and my craft cert once, different jobs.I agree it should happen every time though.

I have had to show it sevral times. On other jobs the TEEU have arrived and checked. I did not have my card on me, but the shop steward had my details and they rang the TEEU and checked.

At interviews I have been told, no card no job (on 2 occasions).

Armin_Tamzarian

fishdog wrote: »

They work under supervision of people who know the spec and regulations for that job. That is what we all do. Specifications change from job to job.

This is misleading.
Say there's a job with 30 lads and one foreman.
Out of than 30 you'd expect 5-10 to be very well experienced of Irish installations.
The apprentices and lesser qualified can rely on these people for help and guidance.

If you have say, 30 Polish sparks and one Irish foreman then it's a totally different situation, even forgetting about language barriers.

I don't know why you're so set on trying to contradict everything.
I'm simply stating what I've seen and what I know.
Any speculation is stated.

As an electrician?? Are you joking?
Please name some, I would be interested. Are you saying that on these large sites they also have people working as electricians that are unqualified?? I find this hard to believe.

I don't want to name specific sites / employers but like I said,
I've been on several of the largest jobs in Dublin over the past ten years and I've never seen an spark asked for papers and I've seen
plenty of unqualified electricans on all these jobs.

Perhaps you have been cocooned from this by working direct for a reputable emploer (Mercury) but the situation in the world of sub-contracting is very different.
As you mention Mercury I can state for a fact that they have had in the past and probably continue today to employ Sub-Contractors who
in turn employ unqualified tradesmen.
Like most other Contactors Mercury puts no controls that I know of over who their Sub-Contractors decide to put on site.

aido79

As a recently qualified spark i too do not want to end up as a jurassic spark pulling cables and the like. heading to australia next year and wondering what to do when i come back. i've also got an ordinary degree in electronics which i done before i got before i started my apprenticeship. has anybody got any ideas of what career path i should take. i would like something technical like plc's or something.

Armin_Tamzarian

Hey Aido-
As some of the other posters mentioned, perhaps Maintenance Sparking might suit you better.
If you get in with a large company you could get a job involving
alot of work on BMS systems, working with relays, ladder logic etc.

jasonos

hi all im just back from my course. just wondering is there any sparks who are now qualified engineers what kinda money ye on lol? and what does your job entail

fishdog

This is misleading.
Say there's a job with 30 lads and one foreman.
Out of than 30 you'd expect 5-10 to be very well experienced of Irish installations.

How do you think Irish electricians cope all over the world??

Would you not aknowlage that specifications change from job to job??

I worked on a large project in Holland for Shell that was run Germans (Irish supervision also), and we had mostly Irish but also, Scottish, English, Dutch, and German electricians. The job was completed on time, on budget and to a high standard. The regulations were very different for me because I had never worked with explosion proof equipment before. The way we dealt with the regulations was simply to read the drawings. On large jobs your worked is overseen and signed off by an engineer anyway.

I don't want to name specific sites / employers but like I said,

Strange that.

I don't know why you're so set on trying to contradict everything.
I'm simply stating what I've seen and what I know.
Any speculation is stated.

It is not ment personally. I am just speaking form my experience. I have been in this game a long time, my experiences just seem to be very different from yours. I dont find our regulations any more difficult than other countries, just different.

Perhaps you have been cocooned from this by working direct for a reputable emploer (Mercury) but the situation in the world of sub-contracting is very different.

No I worked for alot of other people as well, but you are correct are reputable.

As electricians none of us know it all and one of the keys to being a good electrician is to be able to keep learning. Even if you are 100% up to speed with all of the current regulations now you will not be for long, because they will change. With changes in technology we have to learn how to install, maintain and fault find new equipment all of the time. If we can cope with all of this learning I fail to see why foreign electricians would not be able to adapt to our regulations.

aido79

thanks armin.
i think that is the route i am going to take. there are 2 courses i am looking into at the minute. the first is a maintenace course in bolton street and the second is a plc course in kevin street. both of these course would give me a better chance of gettin a job in maintenance.

The \/\/anderer

I'm in a similar situation to the OP, except I'm an Electrical Engineer. I'm sick of my job - in the office 9-5. It's very boring and i'm not gaining anymore experience. I know everything I need to know for my job.
I'm trying to get into automation/PLCs but it's proving very difficult to find work in that area. Any jobs i've seen require 5+ years experience and sometimes they're looking for qualified sparks. I have been working for over 5 years, but not in that area, so my chances of getting such jobs are very slim. This really annoys me because PLC programming was something i really enjoyed in college, and i've always wanted to work at it.
I often think i would have been better doing an apprenticeship. I love doing physical work, and at least I could do nixers or possibly start my own business. Although after reading this thread, i can see how it gets boring too....

Sparky

Im somewhat simular by getting fed up of the current field I am in.
I'm more generally residential and commercial and deal alot with the public (especially in regards to commercial).

Half running a business does get very stressfull too, especially when the other half does not pull their weight
(many boardsies reading this will know what I'm on about)


Ps, great to see the forum created!

Tech3

sounds like the electronic maintainance tech is the best way to go. You dont have to do the same things every day as engineers. Diploma should get you a tech job somewhere.

fishdog

electronic maintainance tech

What do they do?

Do you mean a maintainance electrician?

Sparky

sounds interesting alright!

dingding

Was an electrician myself, a long time ago I done an industrial electronic's course with FAS, and went on to get a national cert in electronics and a degree in information technology www.oscail.ie with DCU.

A long slog but well worth it. It got me a very well paid job that I enjoy.

I would encourage the OP to go for a qualification at degree level, and to change career.

When you are going for a job in another dicipline, the experience of teamwork etc... that you got during your apprenticeship will stand to you.

It might be a slog now but over the lifetime of your career and the increase in your earning potential, you will be paid back many times over.

Cheers.

return guide

O P

Try get a job with a good fire company, decent (23 per hour), company van / car, pension ( not CIF ), shares, bonus and above all no need to worry about future employment.

Ten years ago I was making off 240s and worring about the knock coming in two weeks/ months ( standard Mercury policy and Mercury are probably the best I had worked for).

Do not mind the petty rantings of some sparks that are afraid to to come off sites, there are some good opportunities still but hurry, as usual when things start to get tight the CV's start flying.

Regards

fishdog

dingding:

I would encourage the OP to go for a qualification at degree level, and to change career.

Well said, so would I. I am 1/2 way through it now and the time has flown.

return guide

Try get a job with a good fire company, decent (23 per hour), company van / car, pension ( not CIF ), shares, bonus and above all no need to worry about future employment.

You make a fair point, however I know that for myself I would not find that sort of work very challenging. Then I get bored and quit! Perhaps it would be good because it gives you the chance to get another qualification.

return guide

Ten years ago I was making off 240s

So was I, with Mercury also! IMHO this sort of work is more challanging, and requires more skill. However you can not do it for ever.

return guide

Do not mind the petty rantings of some sparks that are afraid to to come off sites

Good advice.

Stoner

A move to a company dealing with MV installations etc would be a good one IMO. Training would be required but there is an increasing demand for these skills.

Returning to college has never been easier, there are distance options in Sligo and Kevin Street offer a service type degree aimed in large at electricians, this is not that daunting, the maths is not as difficult as you might imagine, it is easier then other degree material as it builds on your training as an electrician. If you want to train up, now is the time to do it IMO

fishdog

+ 1 Stoner

pissed

i would like to no is there light at the end of the tunnel.

your a sparks sure if there is none there you can put one there

return guide

your a sparks sure if there is none there you can put one there


Only if we have an order number

paulg1770

hi, I'm a sparks myself Ive worked in a lot of jobs for mercury, house bas-hers, fire alarm inst, ship building and on the oil rigs over the past 8 years and must admit no matter for who or where you work in this game its the same old bull **** conduit, tray, 4x240s cable pulls chasing walls etc with no job security. I'm basically looking to to find a more laid back position like as a maintenance electrician or something but they all require experience in their specific departments. Does anybody know if there's a course in maintenance electrician practises or can someone suggest a more satisfying secure job. cheers

DublinDilbert

I would say do a course in PLCs & maybe communications/networking. This would set you up for most automation/maintenance jobs and even BMS systems.

Armin_Tamzarian

Alrite mate.
A couple of years back I switched over to working in power generation, large generators and such.
I really like it.
If you don't mind travelling around the world alot and being away from home for long periods of time then maybe it's for you.
PM me if you want any information...

newie

Armin_Tamzarian wrote: »

Alrite mate.
A couple of years back I switched over to working in power generation, large generators and such.
I really like it.
If you don't mind travelling around the world alot and being away from home for long periods of time then maybe it's for you.
PM me if you want any information...

Alright Mate, just looking through the boards there and seen your post. Im a spark myself and went back to college to study Elec Eng. Finished the degree in May and more than likely will do the Hons next year. I was wondering if you had any detais of possible work abroad for the summer months.

Armin_Tamzarian

newie wrote: »

Alright Mate, just looking through the boards there and seen your post. Im a spark myself and went back to college to study Elec Eng. Finished the degree in May and more than likely will do the Hons next year. I was wondering if you had any detais of possible work abroad for the summer months.

Sorry mate, I wouldn't know of anything like that.
It's not the sort of work that you'd really associate with a Summer job.

Best of luck on the jobfront...