Whats with the new growing trend of being too posh to push

girlwitcurls

themadchef wrote: »

Girlwitcurls i think if youre expecting someone to come on here and say " oh yes i asked to be delivered on 12 09 05 because it was my birthday too!" you are not going to get it (unless mrs Beckham or the likes are members)

I have had 3 sections, first time round i was almost fully dilated when my baby got into serious diffiulty, 2nd time i was the one with problems, not the baby..seriously high bp, and third..well twins and he considered letting me deliver but high bp again. Ho they can call them elective beats me as they were decisions the consultants made, not mine.

I was private and i can tell you i spoke to many ladies who would have loved to have had a section not for vanity reasons (lol at that) but out of sheer fear of delivery. Not one of these ladies recieved their section, in fact one lady said the consultant almost laughed and told them to go to Hollywood.

Basically i spent months in hospital while pregnant and i did not encounter one woman who said they were doing it because "they felt like it"

Sections are not fun or easy, neither is labour.

Painting all consultants and all hospitals in this country with the same brush is not fair or accurate.

And on another point, if you carry that attitude of "you so dont need a section" with you into your job then you are going to upset many a woman who is just about to give birth........ whatever you think it's the consultants decision in the end.

I WOULD LIKE TO CLARIFY THAT I HAVE HAD AN EMERGENCY SECTION MYSELF SO I AM NOT SAYING THEY ARE UNNESSECARY.I AM NOT PAINTING ALL CONSULTANTS WITH THE SAME BURSH BUT I AM SAYING IN MOST HOSPITALS I WORKED IN ,THE ELECTIVE SECTION I.E THE WOMAN PICKING THE DATE IS THE NORM."PEOPLE" SAY ELECTIVES ARENT IN IRELAND AND I AM TELLING YOU THEY ARE I HAVE STOOD IN A THEATRE WITH WOMAN WHO ARE PRIVATE AND HAVE ASKED FROM DAY ONE FOR A SECTION.

themadchef

girlwitcurls wrote: »

money money money. going private you can insist on anything!

Complete rubbish, as i pointed out there are lots who ask yes, but no one according to the consultant in our local hospital gets. Your'e way off here.

girlwitcurls

its different seeing things from a patients eyes and seeing things from the medical side. i remember saying to a midwife i was training with "i thought there was no such thing as elective sections" and she laughed she said look in the book and every day there sections for no medical reason so id say madchef your living in the past

themadchef

girlwitcurls wrote: »

so id say madchef your living in the past

Hmmm, living in the past or living in the country? Dublin hospitals i take it is where you are getting your information. Why not post some stats then of hospitals from the country. Please stop blanketing every hospital with what "you believe" to be the case. Thats all i'm saying.

It is not the norm in the West i assure you. There must be a way to get accurate stats on this from the relevant hospitals.

girlwitcurls

hahaha thats where your wrong.........waterford wexford limerick to mention but a few!

Nevyn

It has been well known that if you are private and you can get your consultant to agree you can choose to have a c section, usually the reason will be due to the anxiety of the mother which will cause high blood pressure which can endanger her and the child.

I know of someone who picked her date based on where the planets will be :rolleyes:

Lets face it the last 4 weeks are hard and so are the 10 to 14days you can be left if you go over due and a lot of women can't face that. For me personally having a c-section and the recovery would be a nightmare.

girlwitcurls

well thank **** there is someone living on this planet!!

BostonB

I just think those stats are misleading without qualifying what exactly how they determined. For example.

http://homebirthdebate.blogspot.com/2007/10/new-bmj-study-shockingly-misleading.html

I don't think either natural or c -section is an easier option. It depends very much on the specific circumstance. You can have good or bad experience of either. I know someone who had a very difficult natural delivery with a longer recovery time than her previous emergency section required. But I assume thats not typical.

Hotblack Desiato

girlwitcurls wrote: »

where in my stats are you taking that bull?????i am merely trying to make it clear to you the RISKS of an lscs.dont you get it?????whatever the reason for the section those problems mentioned in the stats can happen]

BostonB is right. Not that your main point is wrong, but you are misusing statistics. You're adding apples and oranges. Emergency and non-emergency occurences of the same procedure are obviously not going to carry the same risk. Also, using ALL CAPS IS SHOUTING :rolleyes:

girlwitcurls

so are you saying that in an emergency section and an elective section the surgeon couldnt nip the bladder???i.e it is a commen risk

Nevyn

For the most part those those do go private want thier consultant to deliever them and lets fact it consultants are not going to hang around until 4am to deliever a baby.

girlwitcurls

if only i could show ye the books, for the increase in lscs and induction two weeks before xmas just to be home in time for xmas.and yes they are planned!!!there is a 2008 book already for people picking there day for section next year.

embee

Student midwife here, too.

I've gotta say, I don't really understand where you're coming from, girlwitcurls. You are talking about "elective" sections as though they are something that a mother can just choose to have, like a new coat or what she wants for her dinner. It really isn't like that in the vast majority of Irish hospitals. An "elective" section is ANY caesarean section that is not an emergency. Ergo, most deliveries of multiples are done by section, as are breech and transverse presentations, macrosomic babies. Women are still largely uneducated about VBAC. Hell, even a woman with placenta previa has to be sectioned, but it is still called "elective" because it isn't an emergency at term. The vast majority of "elective" sections are for the above reasons, not because of a mothers "vanity". If a woman were that vain and worried about the state of her body, then she would almost certainly choose a vaginal birth. Thick white scars and saggy and/or pinch post-operative skin is a lot more obvious than a tiny scar from possible suturing after a tear or an episiotomy. I don't think its fair on women to call them "vain" if they choose a section, and I don't know which hospitals you're working in. The public (and most of the private) hospitals will not just offer a section unless there is a reason for it. A woman is offerered a section if her baby is too big, in the wrong position, she is carrying multiples or there is some other medical issue that would create a situation where a vaginal birth is too risky. They are offered a section on these occasions because research and evidence gathered over the years suggest that babies and mothers have better outcomes post c-section than they do after a vaginal birth. C-Sections of the elective nature are almost always exclusively offered as a result of evidence-based practice. Breech babies traditionally have much higher rates of neonatal morbidity, for example (hip problems is the most common issue). I don't know of a single woman (and I have a LOT of aunts, cousins etc with kids) who have opted for a section, just because they can.

Hotblack Desiato

girlwitcurls wrote: »

so are you saying that in an emergency section and an elective section the surgeon couldnt nip the bladder???i.e it is a commen risk

Sure he could. But he'll be under a lot more time pressure in an emergency. Then there's all the things that could go wrong as a result of what caused the emergency, not as a result of the section.

girlwitcurls

well as a sdt midwife i really think you need to open your eyes to the world.next youll be saying the doctors dont intervene and ireland is midwifery led. most woman who ask for a section are put down as "anxious" been the reason isnt every woman anxious being pregnant.

you are now making out that i think any woman having a section is terrible. I DID NOT. i have had a section myself so thats just silly.maybe its not practise in your hospital but it is commen practise in the hospitals i have worked in. i came on this thread to find out why knowing full well myself that it is happening and i find it funny that people are denying that it is even happening.

girlwitcurls

ninja900 wrote: »

Sure he could. But he'll be under a lot more time pressure in an emergency. Then there's all the things that could go wrong as a result of what caused the emergency, not as a result of the section.

well im talking bout risks of a section not of an emergency.because as you would see from the thread im interested in ELECTIVE (as in woman having the choice to have a csection for no medical reason)

embee

girlwitcurls wrote: »

well as a sdt midwife i really think you need to open your eyes to the world.next youll be saying the doctors dont intervene and ireland is midwifery led. most woman who ask for a section are put down as "anxious" been the reason isnt every woman anxious being pregnant.

you are now making out that i think any woman having a section is terrible. I DID NOT. i have had a section myself so thats just silly.maybe its not practise in your hospital but it is commen practise in the hospitals i have worked in. i came on this thread to find out why knowing full well myself that it is happening and i find it funny that people are denying that it is even happening.

Who are you fighting with here? Another student midwife? Honestly, it isn't me that needs to open her eyes.

I would also ask you to refrain from telling me what I'll be saying next. I'm not so naive as to think that there isn't too much intervention in the Irish childbirth experience, and I am well aware that Ireland's maternity care is still very much based on the medical model of care, completely at odds to the midwifery model of care. I'm doing the same course you are - seriously, do you really think that I'd disagree with you on the fundamentals?

I have to pull you up on one thing though - you said

girlwitcurls wrote:

you are now making out that i think any woman having a section is terrible

I never, ever said that at all. All I did was question the definition of an "elective" section. And I really, really don't agree with your notion that women have electives because of some sort of vanity. Yes, women are anxious in pregnancy (I know I was), but I have yet to hear of or meet a woman who was so anxious she demanded a section and got it.

deisemum

One of my friend's wanted a c-section so it could fit in with her lifestyle and when local hospital refused, she went to another hospital who carried out the c-section. She was asked what day she'd like to have her baby so she chose the date.

Whenever consultants are going on holidays or in the week before christmas they have no problem getting their private patients in to have their babies.

I think a lot of first time mums are frightened beyond belief due to other mothers trying to outdo each other with their horror stories. Mind you I have found that the ones who really go into great detail about how bad their labour was are often the ones who go on and have several children.:rolleyes:

girlwitcurls

And I really, really don't agree with your notion that women have electives because of some sort of vanity. Yes, women are anxious in pregnancy (I know I was), but I have yet to hear of or meet a woman who was so anxious she demanded a section and got it.[/quote]

its not "a notion" i have seen and heard of woman asking for a section for no medical reason and getting it. i am fighting with noonw dont see why ye are denying the facts.

girlwitcurls

deisemum wrote: »

One of my friend's wanted a c-section so it could fit in with her lifestyle and when local hospital refused, she went to another hospital who carried out the c-section. She was asked what day she'd like to have her baby so she chose the date:rolleyes:

well thank god there is someone else who knows this is going on!!!thanks deisemum i presume your in waterford?i have worked there

deisemum

embee wrote: »

Yes, women are anxious in pregnancy (I know I was), but I have yet to hear of or meet a woman who was so anxious she demanded a section and got it.

embee just because you haven't come across it yet that does not mean that expectant mothers are not requesting elective c-sections. I personally know women who've requested sections, some got them, others didn't.

Maybe by the time you've qualified in midwifery and have more experiece or do training in a hospital where it is more prevalent I'd be surprised if you haven't come across it by then.

One woman I know that requested and was allowed an elective section said she was able to resume a sex life much quicker. It was the last thing on my mind

Personally I would have hated having a section, god I was bad enough dreading being stitched after delivering my second lad. I also prefered having a midwife help deliver my babies and I didn't want to see a doctor unless there was an emergency or the midwife was concerned.

BostonB

girlwitcurls wrote: »

im a midwifery student and a mother and i cannot get over the increasing numbers of woman who put themselves and their child through an operation (c-section).For no good reason!!I understand if the mother or baby is at risk but why go through a major operation if everything i normal.And the pain after far outways the pain of labour!6 weeks unable to drive.Why are irish women in particular giving into this trend??

I don't really get what you want out of this thread. People have extensive cosmetic surgery some quite serious. Basically because they can. Thats probably the closest answer your going to get from this. I would assume that (too posh to push) is far more common in private patients than with others. So I'd say you see it more in some hospitals than others for that reason alone. There are probably many reasons why people would see the benefits (as they see them) as outweighing the odds of having a problem with a C-Section. Theres been an on going debate about what role certain hospitals and thus their medical staff in the increase in C-sections. I never seen any debate about any increase in complications or increase medical interventions possible though new developments being an influence in the increase in sections. Most arguments, reports seem to have their own agenda. An example of that is selective use of stats which aren't completely transparent, or how those stats are collated isn't given.

From an outsider looking in, it seems every other midwife, doctor, consultant or hospital has a different viewpoint, on maternity issues some almost militant I might add, and each totally convinced theirs is the only right way.

Ickle Magoo

If the mother knows the inherent risks & has weighed up the pro's & con's - why shouldn't she have an elective? It may be unbelievable to you but everyone is different & places stock in different aspects. Some people would consider a home-birth as risky, some would follow their consultants concerns & have a section, other have no option & end up with an emergency section.

I had my first by emergency section with 15mins notice, I stuck it out for a VBAC against my consultants recommendations & ended up having a second emergency section. I wouldn't recommend it!

As long as women are well informed then I think their birthing choices are up to them.

embee

girlwitcurls wrote: »

its not "a notion" i have seen and heard of woman asking for a section for no medical reason and getting it. i am fighting with noonw dont see why ye are denying the facts.

To be honest, it is a "notion" to me, because you can't back it up with statistics or facts. If a woman wants a c-section, because she is morbidly afraid of labour, that is technically a "non-medical" reason. If she wants a section because she maybe had a previous, traumatic vaginal birth, then it is "non-medical" as well. It is very difficult to say that women are just opting into something for the sake of it without backing up what you say with statistics.

deisemum wrote: »

embee just because you haven't come across it yet that does not mean that expectant mothers are not requesting elective c-sections. I personally know women who've requested sections, some got them, others didn't.

Maybe by the time you've qualified in midwifery and have more experiece or do training in a hospital where it is more prevalent I'd be surprised if you haven't come across it by then.

deisemum, I'm well aware of the fact that it happens. My point throughout has been that the vast majority of "elective" sections are ones that take place for a medical reason of some kind. All I am doing here is stating that I haven't come across it, yet. I'm sure that I will, somewhere down the line, but honestly, I'd support any woman in whatever decision she feels is right for her.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

As long as women are well informed then I think their birthing choices are up to them.

Well said, Ickle Magoo. Herein lies the crux of the issue. If a woman makes an informed choice, and she feels it is the right choice for her, then so be it. I don't personally feel that I would opt for a section unless there was a reason for it, but that is just my own personal feeling on the issue and I certainly wouldn't take on to judge a woman for making that decision.

l3LoWnA

Personally, I had quick labour and ok birth the first time round (I even said afterwards, I'd go through labour and birth ten times over for the joy it brought, ie. my little girl, it wasn't as tough as I thought etc) The birth, however, causes a third degree tear which needed two hours worth of stitching whilst being in an extremely uncomfortable position (stirrups and the doc kept grabbing me under my ass and pulling me further towards him which HURT!!) It was the most traumatic experience of my life, not knowing exactly how bad I was, being giving shots of antibiotics into my arm at the same time as forceps were shoved inside me to open me up to reach the top of the wound for suturing (or whatever they call it) I was kept in hospital for 7 days, was told there was a chance I could end up incontinent, had to take syrup to soften stools for over a month + strong pain-killers and coudln't even carrying my baby because my back was in agony (think this could have been normal after-birth back trauma o else causedby uncomfortable position while being stitched up!)

Basically, I will never EVER risk (no matter how small the risk of re-tearing is) that happening to me again and will demand, in no uncertain terms a c-section the next time I am expecting) I was in the c-section ward and was so jealous of all the mums who had c-sections and seemed to be recovering far quicker that me

I'm not too posh to push but if I'd known that a third degree tear CAN happen and what it involves I'd have demanded a C-sectio nthe first time around!

I've read up about all of this and realise midwives see no harm in a previous third-degree-tear patient gving birth naturally the 2nd time around and tearing being avoided....whereas consultants see lesss harm in a pateint having a c-sectio nif she so wishes...... But have these midwives gone through the absolute horrendous trauma of having a their sphincter muscle (and more) completely ripped to shreds before themselves?

deisemum

13LoWnA. I think my pelvic floor has gone up inside my ribcage after reading your post. Everything is clenched. :eek: You poor thing.

embee

l3LoWnA wrote: »

Personally, I had quick labour and ok birth the first time round (I even said afterwards, I'd go through labour and birth ten times over for the joy it brought, ie. my little girl, it wasn't as tough as I thought etc) The birth, however, causes a third degree tear which needed two hours worth of stitching whilst being in an extremely uncomfortable position (stirrups and the doc kept grabbing me under my ass and pulling me further towards him which HURT!!) It was the most traumatic experience of my life, not knowing exactly how bad I was, being giving shots of antibiotics into my arm at the same time as forceps were shoved inside me to open me up to reach the top of the wound for suturing (or whatever they call it) I was kept in hospital for 7 days, was told there was a chance I could end up incontinent, had to take syrup to soften stools for over a month + strong pain-killers and coudln't even carrying my baby because my back was in agony (think this could have been normal after-birth back trauma o else causedby uncomfortable position while being stitched up!)

Basically, I will never EVER risk (no matter how small the risk of re-tearing is) that happening to me again and will demand, in no uncertain terms a c-section the next time I am expecting) I was in the c-section ward and was so jealous of all the mums who had c-sections and seemed to be recovering far quicker that me

I'm not too posh to push but if I'd known that a third degree tear CAN happen and what it involves I'd have demanded a C-sectio nthe first time around!

I've read up about all of this and realise midwives see no harm in a previous third-degree-tear patient gving birth naturally the 2nd time around and tearing being avoided....whereas consultants see lesss harm in a pateint having a c-sectio nif she so wishes...... But have these midwives gone through the absolute horrendous trauma of having a their sphincter muscle (and more) completely ripped to shreds before themselves?

Oh my word, l3LoWnA, I am really sorry to hear that. It sounds awful, and I don't blame you for one second about wanting a c-section next time around. I think if I were in your position I'd ask the same. I had a second degree tear on my DD and that was bad enough - I really feel for you that you went through this.

I really think though that any midwife worth her salt will listen to you next time around and recommend a c-section if that is what you want. I know that midwives are perceived as very much "pro" vaginal births, but I wouldn't want to put a woman under my care through psychological trauma and fear just because of my own personal preferences.

littlebug

themadchef wrote: »

Complete rubbish, as i pointed out there are lots who ask yes, but no one according to the consultant in our local hospital gets. Your'e way off here.

The madchef is right... the one person I know of who wanted a section from the start due to fear and nothing else tried every consultant in Galway. They all said no and she had to travel elsewhere to have her baby. Elective sections just for the sake of it are NOT done in Galway.

Now that isn't to say "Some" of the consultants will nudge a mother in the direction of having a c section if they have had one previously.

Believe it or not there are also "some" consultants who are pro- natural birth and will not intervene until absolutely necessary. I was lucky enough to have one of these myself and he also got out of his bed at 1.30 am to deliver my baby.

girlwitcurls

littlebug wrote: »

The madchef is right... the one person I know of who wanted a section from the start due to fear and nothing else tried every consultant in Galway. They all said no and she had to travel elsewhere to have her baby. Elective sections just for the sake of it are NOT done in Galway.

and because of the "one" person that you know that tried it musnt happen!by the way thats sarcasim.

girlwitcurls

embee wrote: »

To be honest, it is a "notion" to me, because you can't back it up with statistics or facts

can you back up your "notion" that all electives are because of medical reasons???