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Whats with the new growing trend of being too posh to push
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For what it's worth, I've just come to this thread and read the entirety from beginning to end.
Thank you, Thaedydal, for making the OP take a time-out. She really was getting to be offensive and unjustifyably argumentative.
Embee, (welcome as a mod, btw), I think your comments were fair and clearly put. As a mother of one, I believe the role of the midwife is whatever the labouring mother requires. If I'm pushing a watermelon out of my vagina, and I want my midwife to sing me a lullaby, I'd hope she'd be agreeable
At the end of it all, the only real thing that matters is that mother and baby are healthy and happy. And Embee, you made a very valid point that what is "supposed to" happen doesn't always happen, and sometimes there is a time and point for a more invasive procedure.
Does that mean that sometimes, some women choose to have a c-section for no other reason than they can plan the day and environment they'll deliver in. Of course that happens. And maybe in this ever-changing Irish culture, maybe more women are requesting sections for this reason. However I still think (at least I'd hope) these women are a minority and that most women undergoing a section do have some sort of medical reasoning.0 -
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At the end of it all, the only real thing that matters is that mother and baby are healthy and happy. And Embee, you made a very valid point that what is "supposed to" happen doesn't always happen, and sometimes there is a time and point for a more invasive procedure.
Does that mean that sometimes, some women choose to have a c-section for no other reason than they can plan the day and environment they'll deliver in. Of course that happens. And maybe in this ever-changing Irish culture, maybe more women are requesting sections for this reason. However I still think (at least I'd hope) these women are a minority and that most women undergoing a section do have some sort of medical reasoning.
Hi Ayla,
You are absolutely right - a healthy Mum and baby are the the desired outcomes from any birth, no matter what route the baby takes out of the uterus. Very few (if any) women these days choose to have a caesarean without being fully aware of the possible risks and the longer recovery time, and I could agree with you that the women who do opt for non-medical sections are a small minority and I think things will remain that way.themadchef wrote: »What a read this thread is.
If i were about to have a c section out of pure fear of natural delivery or any other "non medical" reason i certainly know what midwife i would like by my side!.
If girlwitcurls you feel so strongly about this then perhaps you should consider changing profession as i dont see you being much support to any woman in this position. A miswife/nurse/doctor, whatever..... should leave her personal feelings on any given subject at the door IMO
And therein lies the crux of the issue, madchef
Well put. 0 -
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themadchef wrote: »What a read this thread is.
If i were about to have a c section out of pure fear of natural delivery or any other "non medical" reason i certainly know what midwife i would like by my side!.
If girlwitcurls you feel so strongly about this then perhaps you should consider changing profession as i dont see you being much support to any woman in this position. A miswife/nurse/doctor, whatever..... should leave her personal feelings on any given subject at the door IMO.
+1 Completely agree.
There's nothing more annoying than a midwife who tries to force you to do something you've already and definately made your mind up completely about. Just because you've read the text-books and worked in the midwifrey field does not mean you know it all. Breast-feeding was WRONG for me, I found out the hard way, no nurse or midwife would listen however.
For example:- Whilst going through a traumatic recovery in hospital after my 3rd degree tear experience, I felt under SO much pressure to breast-feed from all the staff that I continued it. I was NOT healthy enough to breast-feed. My daughter was not getting enough milk and she AND I had developed thrush (me, on my nipple, inside my breast) and the pain was excrutiating (yes, even after childbirth and stitching, and whilst on distalgesic I think & double dose of antibiotics) the pain was absolutely unbearable. NONE of the staff took ANY notice of me, I was a first-time "clueless" mum to them. They ignored me when I mentioned the pain saying I was probbaly cracked or the baby was not latched on properly. I knew this was not true as I could tell when she was latched on (it's NOT rocket science after all for christs sake and my oh my believe it or not, even a new mum can work these things out with a bit of research and a bit of mothering....)
I didn't find out about the thrush until I was discharged from hospital and after another few days of agony (i was crying my eyes out in shooting pains every time she fed from one particular boob) I looked it up online and self-diagnosed it as being thrush. The public health nurse agreed with me, I had thrush. I put my baby on bottles the next day and never looked back, I hadn't slept for TWO FULL weeks for anything more than about 40 minutes (baby had started wanting to use mammy as a dummy also all through the night) Finally I got a good night sleep, as did my baby, and after a few weeks she was sleeping the whole night through and we had a perfect routine.
The nurses/midwives were absolutely rubbish in my case, pushing their text-book "perfect world" ideas onto me and not actually having the caring nature they SHOULD have to actually open their ears, listen and HEAR the patient!!
The tear was caused (in my opinion) by the very experienced midwife letting a student midwife check the position of the head before I was ready to push. Unfortunately the student couldn't work out the position (her first time to do it) and was making faces as if to say "haven't a clue" and the midwife said "push away" without holding me off for a few seconds and checking herself, which she should have done. Baby's head was positioned wrong and I tore....this probably could have been avoided. I wasn't encouraged to control my pushing either and pushed extremely hard as had been doing my pelvic floor excersises every day, morning, noon and night, for MONTHS, in preperation, but that's another thing midwives don't trust about first-time mums...
When I arrived in the hospital at 8am one morning, after going through most of my labour at home (because I wanted to be in comfort in my own home, on my own, and not around strangers while going through such pain) and timing contractions myself, contractions were 3 mins apart when I left the house and 2mins40sec and lasting 40 seconds as I walked through the doors of the larbour ward. The midwife didn't listen to me when I told her and, after laving me sitting for ten minutes in a waiting area she told me to hop on a table to "monitor" the baby when in reality I needed to be in the delivery room preparing as I was 9 centimetres dialiated (midwife didn't check until she had MONITORED me for a full hour) The baby wasn't kicking as she was ready to be born...and the midwife was popping into the room every now and them telling me to press a button when the baby kicked! But she wasn't in the mood for kicking, she wanted out and the midwife didn't care as she knew best!!! My contractions were so intense at this stage that I was ready to kill someone (I didn't give out or moan or whinge though, maybe that was my problem, I didn't even say OW once throughout!) Anyways, the mid-wife, thinking I was a typical first-time-mum (as they tend to think about us) thought of course, I'd be overreacting, she actually had mentioned that it might be a false alarm, AFTER I'd told her about the contractions and how long I'd had them and the times etc etc.....grrrrrr I'm sorry, am I gone way off topic? As you can see, me and midwives didn't have many good experiences together. (I also knew my midwife personally and she had delivered me, she is a lovely woman, kind and caring in nature, but she is a typical midwife who knows best for mum & best for baby but doesn't actually listen to mum....ever)
Girlwithcurls, I don't want to personally attack you. But it's so obvious you're being brainwashed by a midwife or midwives (or books) who have very strong and set ways of looking at things. You need to be slightly more empathethic to the mothers (I believe you're a mother yourself) who may choose to have a c-section for whatever reason. Maybe they ARE being silly, but it's their choice and your job, in turn to support them, not judge them. I believe it was a little foolish of you, as a trainee midwife to come onto boards critisicing ANY womans choice about how she would like to bring her baby into the world and what she would like her body to go through. At the end of the day, many women choose to have many different types of surgery for vanity alone. If they choose to have a c-section because they are afraid of child-birth or had a traumatic first labour/birth, I can totally understand that and really, you, being a midwife, should be fully supportive of their decision.
Ok, choosing it because they want to have the baby on a certain day, well that's just slightly over-board, but I can't imagine many women do that.....yet! Actually, there aren't many women (in my humble opinion) in this country who would WANT a c-section simply to avoid delivering naturally.....yet!!
We no longer have to hunt by running cross country bare-foot for miles each day to feed our children, injuring ourselves as we go.
We no longer accept and put up with, tonsils that are getting infected alot, we have them ripped out!
We no longer have to live with scars forever (we can have skin grafts to improve them)
We no longer have to live with wrinkles
We no longer have to give birth and raise a child if we become pregnant (ie. Abortion is beoming increasingly common) Why are so many women choosing this invasive procedure also? Simply, because they can, because they have the choice. Because things change and procedures develop.
Maybe in the future, we will no longer have to go through, pain & trauma of labour and chld-birth each time we deliver a baby, maybe that will be a simple choice a mother makes, whether she's in Waterford or Donegal, public or private patient. Maybe the obligation of chid-birth will no longer exists in a womans life in 100 years time and children will always be surgically removed from the womb, maybe, just maybe, it will end up being the SAFER option, what with cords getting stuck around necks, breech births, natural tearing and/or episiotomies leaving women incontinent, the amount of emergency c-sections (very dangerous things) carried out if labour isn't progressing at a healthy pace or baby is in trouble, and what about when the baby is overdue and there ends up meconium in the amniotic sack that the baby injests.....all of these risks are avoided when you have a planned c-section, I know there are other risks, but mother AND surgeon are prepared for all the risks and midwives are not and will never ALL be perfect at their jobs.
Maybe in 100 years time, women the world over will be aghast and in shock at the very NOTION of the females in history giving birth to a child through their vaginal opening!!
As the world has developed and medicine too, I think people in general are less weary of surgery, always weary, but less so as the years roll on and more and more different types of surgery are introduced and going under the knife becomes more commonplace, albeit for vanity reasons or medical. As a c-section dates back to god knows when, people trust surgeons now, especially in a routine procedure like a c-section (personally I would consider it a routine procedure as it takes place so often and surgeons get much practice performing these procedures) Many first-time mums may only need to hear some true stories about child-birth or witness it on television or be a birthing partner for a relative to realise that they will never EVER put themselves through all of that, no matter what the rewards. Many women may think that giving this baby a chance at life and raising this child with all of their love is enough to give to their child without HAVING to go through a natural birth for the childs sake also. I say, more power to the women who chase up a consultant to perform a c-section on them, although I enjoyed every part of my natural birth, I would never ever wish the after-trauma upon anybody.
And I really do belive that things will change in the future and that possibly, like Matrons, midwives will no longer be necessary - I'm not talking 10 years down the road though, as so many women are all for natural births at the moment....I'm talking about when we are all driving around on hover-cars that fly kind of future.....
Just a question now, how do ou feel, girlwithcurls, about epidurals? Aren't they quite dangerous too? Or do they not bother you so much, because you still have a job with epidurals? I know all the earth-mothers out there want to go through natural childbirth with no assistance at the moment as they're led to believe it's the safest and best thing in the world they could do for their child, but where's the proof, where's the stats to compare how many babies come into difficulties after a natural birth as opposed to a c-section birth? Where's the percentages? (maybe I'm wrong but I'd love to see proof)
Of course, all of the above is only my own humble little opinion and should probably be taken with a pinch of salt given the circumstances and my personal previous experiences.
Just needed a rant - if anybody read the lot, here's a leather medal for you
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Embee wasn't claiming specific numbers...you can't start a thread on such an emotive topic & claim that specific numbers of women are doing X, Y or Z without a shred of evidence - or we could all make up threads claiming anything we like.
Why is it sad, anyway? People have cosmetic surgery, dental cosmetics, etc, etc - all surgery & they all carry risk - why can't or shouldn't women elect to have cesareans? I don't understand the "natural is always best" mentality. Different women want different things & thankfully in 2007 we can provide it. Someone who has had 7 natural home births is no better mother than someone who's had 3 section, in the scheme of things it's really not important.
If women who don't want intervention are being rail-roaded into having it then I totally agree but that is a separate topic to the one this thread was started about. 0 -
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I read your entire post, and I respect the pain you've gone through post-birth b/c of your tearing and infections. I know you've had a horrendous experience (although you say you loved every bit of the actual birthing process).
Hi Ayla!
(thx for reading )
I didn't mind Labour one bit, yes the pains were bad but I had trained myself to focus on the positive side to the pains, knew exactly why I was in pain, an what was happening inside my body. I'd do it again no problem (I went through most of it at home, by myself, and I can't say the pushing was easy but it def wasn't painful so I'd do that again too - also unaided - no drugs, which was my choice, I wanted to do it all without any pain-killers or whatever)Please (please, please) don't take this the wrong way, but you sound very angry...have you talked to anyone about all the emotional and psychological pain you've lived with since your child was born?
No, nobody, I'm not generally angry about it, I haven't thought or spoke about it in ages, it was over 3.5 years ago now. It's just when I saw another midwife with these ideas "too posh to push" etc that it's riled me a bit
I believe women should and eventually will, have the choice whether they want to go through labour and child-birth or not. Those who want to and feel it's their duty and makes them a better mother/person or more fulfilled or proud of themselves, can go right ahead and give birth naturally and those who don't, won't have to. It's not about being too posh, it's deinately not about being a bad mother, as I know plenty of them who would refuse pain-relief/c-section also.....it's about a personal choice. I know women who have perfectly normal births (naturally) and still find it extremely traumatic. I'm sorry to say, not everyone is ecstatically overwhelmed by the beauty of their darling child straight away after 12 hours of labour and 2 hours of pushing, so much so that they forget about it and are simply proud of themselves and delighted with their healthy baby.
My best friend also went through a very long and traumatic labour and eventually had an emergency c-section and heamorraged. I believe the doctors knew there were risks and should have gave her the option of a c-section in advance, but they didn't, she was a public patient! I'm not angry, I just think women should have more of a choice and not be led to believe one way is any more risky than another when no-body actually KNOWS what might go wrong in a natural OR a c-section birth!Also, just as mothers who chose to have c-sections hate the label of being "too posh to push," I'd imagine women who chose to have completely natural childbirths hate being labelled as "earth-mothers". I know that always rubs me the wrong way. IMO, the term "earth-mother" implies an innocently niave hippy, not someone who has educated themselves about the natural process of childbearing and believes their own bodies are well capable of naturally delivering most births.
You're completely right. I shouldn't have used that term - sorry if I offended anyone. I was one of those though, well, I was a mum-to-be who was led to believe (and I stress that) that giving birth naturally without any medication was gonig to be the best thing for baby AND the best thing for me, and that's genuinely what I wanted to do also. (I never, once throughout whole pregnancy had any internal examination so for all the doc/nurses knew I was deformed down there...nobody examined me, I didn't have my pants off for the whole pregnancy, the first time I had an internal was when I was 9 centimetres dialated, so how did they KNOW I was ok to deliver naturally? They didn't, they presumed) It possibly would have been all ok though, had the midwife done her job properly so yes, I do have some bitterness within me towards midwives and their we-know-what's-best for everyone and our-way-or-no-way attitude I suppose, but I'm not angry. I even called up to my midwife with a present a few weeks after.I did not have any intervention (no gas/air, no epidurals, no nothing) during my daughter's birth and yes, I am proud of that.
Same here - I'm proud too when I think about it. But I'm more proud that I created her than the fact that I gave birth to her though. I'm more proud that she's showing signs of the way I've mothered her thus far by being happy and bubbly and loving. I don't really dwell on the fact that I pushed her out of me as that's what women all over the world have been doing for thousands of years...that's what my mother did. But I'd also be just as proud of myself to go under anaesthethic in order to bring my next child into the world. I'd be proud of carrying him/her and nuturing him/her for 9 months inside me, I'd be proud of giving my baby life, but I don't need to or want to go through labour again. I'd be no less proud if I chose a c-section than I would be if I went natural again. I know I can justify wanting a c-section becaue of my particular trauma first time around, but I still believe it should be a choice for all women. And I dont understand why some people think those who choose c-sections or want them are selfish and/or too-posh-to-push. They're having their abdomen and uterus sliced open, They're going under on a operating table. They are no less brave than women who have a natural birth, they simply make a different choice.But I hope you're wrong that someday natural childbearing will be a thing for the history books.
In some ways, I hope I'm wrong too, I just can see that's the way the world is going, slowly but surely....I NEVER would have chosen a c-section first time around, or next time around had I not had the experiences I had myself after the birth! Just want to clarify that.I know you had a horrible experience, but my memories of childbirth are ones I'll cherish forever and I think it'd be sad if women totally forgo this miracle "just because" they can.
Fertilisation, pregnancy and birth are ALL miracles in their own ways, I don't know what's so miraculous about a watermelon being squeezed through a straw though leaving it stretched, sore and bleeding. It would be a "miracle" if the baby just appeared beside you when you woke up one morning and your belly was flat as a pancake - now that would truly be the miracle!
Who knows, in the future they'll prob perform a c-section to take baby and finish off with a tummy tuck immediatelyAll you can do is show how many naturally delivered babies have post-birth complications vs. how many section babies have complications. But that does not neccessarily show a link b/w the two.
Yes, but it would still be interesting to see, as we all know, we are advised all our lives that delivering naturally is definately less risk for mother & baby and the way it's "meant" to be. I would just love to know how risky it actually is (without everyone saying "it's major surgery" blah blah blah, pushing a baby out through your cervix is actually quite a bloody major thing too, plus the baby can be stuck in the cervix unable to breath for a hell of a long time in some cases...there are many pro's and cons to both methods of delivery, but I believe, women should be more educated about both and it shouldn't be frowned upon if a lady decides she would prefer to have a c-section)0 -
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girlwitcurls wrote: »Women who have c-sections are less likely to breastfeed than women who have vaginal deliveries. This may be because they are uncomfortable from the surgery or have less time with the baby in the hospital I have to laugh at this! As a student midwife you'd surely know that a woman who has had a c-section will be at least 5 days in hospital with her baby (I was 8 days in hospital after), while a woman who has given birth normally, with no complications, can be discharged as soon as 12 hrs after the birth. I had a section and breast-fed afterwards. Yes, I was uncomfortable but once I was sitting in the chair and baby was supported properly then it was fine. Women in the room who had had stitching down there, episiotomies and tears and so on, seemed to have a much harder time sitting on a chair to bresat-feed or bottle-feed their babies.
Incidentally, the reason for my c-section was because the baby was breech. She was breech for the entire second half of the pregnancy, kicked only slightly and never once turned. The consultant told me at 6 mths that a c-section would probably be needed but we agreed to leave the decision until closer to the time. He said there was no way the baby could be turned. At 8 mths check-up he said c-section was absolutely necessary (due to breech position and my tiny size even though baby was only average size), so a date 2 weeks later was put in the diary (chosen by him). I went into labour the next week and arrived into the hospital 3/4 dilated and with my waters long broken so the consultant was called up and brought in from his home in order to do an emergency c-section.
My c-section was initially marked as an "elective" (the kind you have a problem with) although it was decided on for medical reasons, but ended up being an emergency, so that makes it alright in your book? How is it that if I had not gone into labour early myself and had the "elective" section then I would have been "too posh to push" but because it was rushed (and therefore more dangerous) it was fine?
Anyway, I always thought that "too posh to push" meant women in the public eye or celebrities having a c-section done privately, so that they could have liposuction and/or a tummy-tuck done the same day and then emerge out into the world 6 weeks later with every spare bit of baby-weight and bulge miraculously gone from their figures???0 -
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