Budget 2008 as it happens

Vegeta

ninty9er wrote: »

While Road tax is a pain in the arse...it's a tax...it's purpose is to create revenue...that's good because without revenue we'd have no/worse public services.

At the level people currently complain about public services, reducing ANY tax is a bad idea.

No one is talking about reducing tax (although we did have a massive surplus last year which Cowen mismanaged), if they hike up taxes, at least let them be for the reasons they say they are for.

The reason for the tax hike was to help the environment, can you please explain ninty9er how Cowen's motor tax increase does that?

Again no one said reduce taxes, just distribute them appropriately. If its to help the environemnt then implement something that bloody benefits the environment. Simple really

ninty9er

Vegeta wrote: »

No one is talking about reducing tax (although we did have a massive surplus last year which Cowen mismanaged), if they hike up taxes, at least let them be for the reasons they say they are for.

The reason for the tax hike was to help the environment, can you please explain ninty9er how Cowen's motor tax increase does that?

Again no one said reduce taxes, just distribute them appropriately. If its to help the environemnt then implement something that bloody benefits the environment. Simple really

It doesn't in particular...but more funds raised from motor tax will enable us to meet the cost of carbon credits, which is why the CO2 emissions based system works better.

THE VRT reforms do however do just that by incentivising less polluting vehicles

maidhc

Vegeta wrote: »

Again no one said reduce taxes, just distribute them appropriately. If its to help the environemnt then implement something that bloody benefits the environment. Simple really

I don't see the issue. As a result of the new proposals people will probably be able to buy decent safe cars and run them for less than before... e.g. the Ford Focus Econetic should I assume attract the bottom rate of VRT and road tax, is reasonably big and safe enough for at least 80% of families and still has 110bhp. Before if people wanted cheap they had to buy small cars which incidentally were not all that environmentally friendly.

The only people badly inconvenienced are those who drive seriously high capacity cars and do very few miles a year. This is a minority.

Whether the tax take is spent efficiently or not is a different matter and completely irrelevant for the purpose of this discussion.

ninty9er

I even know one person who is getting a BIGGER car next year because of it

S350 to S500, because while you're in for a penny you might as well be in for a pound if it all costs the same except in petrol.

And his way of thinking he's even doing the country a favour cos he'll be giving Revenue about 40k+ straight off!! then annual road tax €1491 and then excise duty on petrol... it figures I guess.

Big cars= big money and if you ain't got the latter tough sh1t.

astraboy

ninty9er wrote: »

Big cars= big money and if you ain't got the latter tough sh1t.

Thats fair enough, but just because your FF buddies tell us this car tax is fair does not make it so. Compare any of our car prices to the UK and see what I mean. Its typical Irish attitude of trying to screw someone with the audacity to buy a nice car. We pay some of the highest road taxes in Europe and see little value for money from it. Why should we accept **** roads(granted they are improving but a LOT more needs to be done) and high car tax designed to keep the pleps in small cars?

I'm all for reducing CO2 emissions, but why not look at other areas like power generation as well? When did the car become the source of all evil? And yes, many people do have "weekend" cars, these people should be rewarded for keeping their cars in the garage 5 days a week!

BTW, I have no issue paying road tax once I see value for money. I don't mind paying for a service I make good use of and that serves me well. However there is so much wrong with the Irish road network and also in the way cars are taxed that drives me crazy. Increasing road taz by 9.5% across the board based on the old cc system has no effect on the environment, so stop trying to pass it off as a way to save the ice caps.

I do approve of the new system of VRT/road tax overall however. Hopefully we'll start to see some more decent spec'ed cars on the roads.

On a final note, VRT and VAT should be removed from safety measures on new cars.

ninty9er

astraboy wrote: »

Thats fair enough, but just because your FF buddies tell us this car tax is fair does not make it so. Compare any of our car prices to the UK and see what I mean. Its typical Irish attitude of trying to screw someone with the audacity to buy a nice car. We pay some of the highest road taxes in Europe and see little value for money from it. Why should we accept **** roads(granted they are improving but a LOT more needs to be done) and high car tax designed to keep the pleps in small cars?

Compare the prices to Denmark and get back to me...

astraboy wrote: »

I'm all for reducing CO2 emissions, but why not look at other areas like power generation as well? When did the car become the source of all evil? And yes, many people do have "weekend" cars, these people should be rewarded for keeping their cars in the garage 5 days a week!

If you can afford to have a car for the weekend you can afford the tax! That's the crux of the issue

Brian Cowen wrote:

The NDP provides almost €150 million for Energy Research. In this Budget, I am allocating €13.2 million for this purpose, an increase of €7 million on 2007. The additional allocation for 2008 will go in particular towards measures to develop renewable energy from ocean sources. It is an area where we as a country could make a very significant contribution if the research is successful. If the research looks promising, I will consider making considerably more resources available in future years.

astraboy wrote: »

On a final note, VRT and VAT should be removed from safety measures on new cars.

Agreed...I also believe that the tax should be applied this way:

Pre Tax Price x VRT

VRT'd Price x VAT

then you get
Total Price.

Ye'll just have to wait til one of ye or I become Minister for Finance:D:D

astraboy

ninty9er wrote: »

Compare the prices to Denmark and get back to me...

If you can afford to have a car for the weekend you can afford the tax! That's the crux of the issue

Agreed...I also believe that the tax should be applied this way:

Pre Tax Price x VRT

VRT'd Price x VAT

then you get
Total Price.

Ye'll just have to wait til one of ye or I become Minister for Finance:D:D

Don't even compare Denmark to Ireland public services public transport etc are all MILES better.

If you can afford to have a weekend car why should you pay maximum road tax? Explain the logic you have here please, just because someone spends their money on a weekend car they should be screwed for tax? "Shar they have the money". Typical irish, FF, begrudgery with little scope for looking at the usage of the car instead of flat CC or CO2 emissions per KM.

As for applying VRT then VAT, we are double taxed already by paying VAT, then VRT on the VAT+pre tax price. So whats your point, reverse the double taxation the other way around? How will this reduce the screwing of the Irish motorist?

Marcus.Aurelius

I agree with most posters here who think that the new car tax system is just as unfair as the last, and it still does not target the polluters, the only way to do this is through taxation on petrol.

At the same time, will the budget changes really change the way you buy cars? Won't we all still buy what we want? Most boardsies seem to be the intelligent type who buy nice cars second hand, not the 0X plate chasers.

astraboy

maoleary wrote: »

I agree with most posters here who think that the new car tax system is just as unfair as the last, and it still does not target the polluters, the only way to do this is through taxation on petrol.

At the same time, will the budget changes really change the way you buy cars? Won't we all still buy what we want? Most boardsies seem to be the intelligent type who buy nice cars second hand, not the 0X plate chasers.

True that! I reckon it will change buying habits though, obviously we will be seeing more cars like the 320d on our roads. I'm all for more higher specked cars on our roads and if we see high performance diesels (new audi A5 3.0TDi an example?) with plenty of torque then I'm all for it. I'm afraid it may be the death knell of the importation of high performance petrol jap cars though.:(

martin1016

I think its a shame - they are hiding behind the green aganda and don't have the bottle to call it what it is - A luxury Tax! All you have to do is look on any car site selling used cars and you'll find the majority of the high mileage cars are in the mid size bracket not the high. A simple fact - a parked Hummer has zero emmsions, the exact same as any other electric, hybrid, diesel etc

Therefore and owing a business with cars and vans on the road, personally I drive 40k KMs per year and agree with taxing the pollutant. Road Tax should be a flat rate as the engine size of a car has very little impact on amount of road space used or fuel consumed. The one thing that a vehicle cannot function without is fuel and by taxing the fuel evryone pays proportionally.

If you look at the biggest polluters they are-
No. 1 - Agriculture (Think Bio Diesel, how much will this increase this by in terms of production emmisons, yet there appears to be no taxation here)
No. 2 - Power Generation, yet the majority of Green Power is being developed privately - why is this "green motor tax" not routed to fund such developments instead of being squandered by the local county council?
No. 3 - Transport - All transport, now why has the private motorist been singled out? I don't think those Scania Trucks, Transit vans or Commercial SUV's are particularly eco friendly. Why has the rail system been allowed to decline into a shadow of what it was in the early 1900's.

Its a token gesture, that is nothing but a headline generator for the Greens. Gormley specifically spoke about leadership - Quote "In global terms, Ireland’s emissions may be relatively small – but our scope to show leadership is enormous." yet where is this leadership. He can't even get electric bicycles legalised!!!!!

What about cycle lanes - he had one put in on the bottom section of O'Connell St, forcing the busses to stop on O'Connell bridge. This lane starts from nowhere and goes nowhere. What about cycle lane safety - sigificant decline in cycling over past years and a significant factor is road safety.

I think the SUV line is great as it fits so well in a tabloid headline, same with gas guzzler. Everyone has a responsibility and why if you are "marginalised" should you be exempted from your responsibilities?

Where is the positive incentive for people to invest in R&D, work hard, spend time and energies in building businesses when there are no rewards at the end.
I wonder what way we are really being led?

ranger4

Doint see any tds with their enormous salarys paying any road TAX OR vrt ON THEIR fREE A6 AND MERCS, SO WHY THE **** SHOULD THE REST OF US, tax the fuel, that way EVERYONE pays including those misfits in the DAIL.