Well well...

SimpleSam06

Heres something I didn't expect to see! Congratulations on getting this up and running, one and all. I'd like to share my decades of experience and perspective on this situation, having had a fairly chronic stammer myself when I was younger, although its much more under control now.

There is a vast amount to say, I really don't know where to begin. Maybe its best to begin at the end, in this case. Despite having this, I am a successful man, with a respectable amount of commercial weight (spread across three continents) which I built myself, married to a very beautiful young lady. There is no need to allow it to dominate your life.

In many ways I think it proved an advantage to me, as a lot of people automatically assume you are somehow deficient, which while annoying can play in your favour. It helped to sharpen my mind, and forced me to step off the well trodden paths and explore new possibilities. Indeed, many of the well trodden paths were closed to me, purely because of this problem.

This is a debilitating condition at the best of times. Even though you can think clearly, write perfectly cogently, and are likely as intelligent or more so than average, you just can't communicate well with others around you. It affects every part of your life, even those parts where you don't need to interact with other people. I always excelled in English and languages (speak around a half dozen by this stage), but there aren't words in any of them to describe how it feels. It alienates you from even the most well-meaning of your fellows, reduces the world to a small box with you looking out, and as time goes on can lead to self harm, sociopathy, and worse.

In my experience, and I can't say it is true for everyone, the causes for this are not physical, they are psychological. Sometimes you stammer on certain words, sometimes numbers. For a while there I had problems with saying words that began with "m", then I went through a phase of being unable to say numbers. The rules of this game change, remember that.

Forget drugs, forget buzzers in your ear, hypnosis, forget speech therapists. I've tried them all and they all have one thing in common: they are trying to pin the tail on a puff of wind. Your own mind keeps changing the rules, and it is within your own mind that it must be addressed.

Speech therapy in Ireland, while I'm on the subject, is barbarism, plain and simple. They attempt to "shock treat" an ailment which is probably caused by shock of some sort or another. This is akin to trying to teach people to dance on quicksand.

I attended speech therapy for around eight years before it was abandoned. In my experience, they have no clue what they are doing; it seems to be treated as if it was a bad knee - keep poking until you find the sore spot, then bandage it up.

I was stopped in the street a few years back by two young men, who informed me haltingly that they were on an assignment from their speech therapist, to stop strangers in the street and talk to them. Jesus H fucking Christ. These sort of tactics wouldn't be out of place in Mengele's handbook. Thats quite a thing to say, but I feel it is justified, I mean what, treating them like idiot children that just couldn't learn the sounds, learn by pain. Pah. I brought them for a cup of coffee, told them a bit about myself, and tried to help as much as I could, which really wasn't much.

The mind perceives these efforts and recognises them for what they are - then it moves the goalposts again. Essentially it is the mind playing a game with itself.

The problem in my opinion is not confidence, or loose neurons, or whatever crackpot theory might be going around this weekend. It is awareness. The reason many sufferers can speak perfectly well while alone, or with loud noises in their ears, or while drugged (!) is they can no longer get the feedback, whether from their own voice or from people around them, on whats going on with their voice.

The more aware you are of it, the worse it will get. This is why repeating over and over "I will not stammer" is counterproductive. It won't go away until you forget about it.

So what to do? Ignore it. Opt out, refuse to play the game with yourself, its a game you can never win. Don't think, right I'm going to ignore this, just do it. Since the cause lies entirely within the mind, thats where the solution lies as well. It takes a lot of discipline and practice, make no mistake. Focus on what you are doing, not how you are doing it.

My experience isn't a panacea, but its how things worked out for me. Your mileage may vary. Whatever else, don't give up.

leahcim

Nice post.

I agree that it is a waste of time going to people like speech therapists or hypnotists looking for a cure. It’s as you said “trying to pin the tail on a puff of wind”. I am yet to meet a stammerer who has had long term success from this alone.

I think getting advice from people is very important but in the end of the day the only person who can get control of our stammer is ourselves. For me it’s all about finding out what works for you.

The approach you mention of 'Don't think, right I'm going to ignore this, just do it' is similar to my attitude. The only problem I have with it is that I can’t just not think. Thinking is like breathing you do it whether you want to or not. I completely agree with the just do it bit.

The thing that works for me is to do the opposite of what my fear of stammering is telling me to do. Instead of avoiding a situation I face it. I take every opportunity to speak to people. If I find my self lost I am much more likely to ask people for directions rather than look at a map, in shops if I want to know something I ask the assistant rather than going home to look up the web.

For me I see my stammer as a little monster sitting there on my shoulder telling me what I can and cannot do. Whenever I avoid a situation due to my speech I am feeding the monster but when I accept the fear and just do it I am bashing the little bastard over the head with a mallet.

Charlie_Boswell

leahcim wrote: »

Nice post.

....Whenever I avoid a situation due to my speech I am feeding the monster but when I accept the fear and just do it I am bashing the little bastard over the head with a mallet.

I could have written that myself Excellent Post!!!

As for the Moster and the Mallet... I'd like to use a very big lump hammer!!!:D

bohsboy

savage post mate. it typifies what I've always said. Stammerers have the best insight on the world as they constantly plan ahead and spend most of their time thinking.

Stephen P

SimpleSam06 - I agree with a lot you say although for someone who has a very severe stutter its very difficult to ignore it. As you know stuttering is very unpredictable and you just never know when you're going to stutter. My stutter isn't severe, its not mild either. Although there times when it can get pretty bad and at those times there is no way I can just ignore it. It can be tough to work through each word and pray that the next word will get out without a stutter.
In my opinion therapy is vital. The type of therapy you get is very important. A therapist who helps you "speak properly" by pronouncing words clearly, isn't helping. A therapist who helps with the emotional baggage that comes with stuttering is, by this I'm referring to the Stuttering Iceberg. If you can work on reducing the 90% of the iceberg that's under the water then you can work on the 10% that's on top.
Awareness of stuttering in Ireland is extremely bad, that's one of the reasons why I proposed this forum in the first place. Support is badly needed and that's another reason for this forum to support people who have a stutter.

BigPhil

Excellent post SimpleSam06.

I agree with a lot of the points that you made in your post, particulary about speech therapy in Ireland being barbaric. I had 6 years of speech therapy when I was younger and my therapist made me feel terrible about myself if I wasn’t improving to her satisfaction and at the rate that she expected. Understandable this was a huge blow to my confidence because I had opened up to this person and was looking for ‘help’ but instead found that I was crawling back further into my shell. But that is another story for another post.

Anyway, like Stephen P said, stuttering is something that is not easily ignored, particulary because verbal communication is something that stutters cannot avoid. Take a job interview situation for example (I use this scenario a lot because I am currently looking for a job and have been to numerous interviews). When the first few questions get fired at you and you begin to stutter while answering them it is extremely hard to try and ignore you stutter even though you are totally focused on answering the question the best way that you can. This can be even worse if you get a negative reaction, be it facial expression or body language, that you get from the interviewer. The odds are usually stacked against you in this situation and it is very hard to regain your confidence once you have had a bad start.

I know what you mean though, awareness of ones stutter is a frightening thing if you really think about it. This example is over the top but in some situations being a stutterer is similar to being a drugs mule going through customs. The agonising fear of stuttering, say in a job interview, or giving a presentation in front of your peers must be on par with a person getting screened at customs knowing that the drugs they are carrying could be uncovered. It’s a crazy example I know, but try to visualise being in both of these positions (forgetting about consequences) and tell me if you can relate to the fear aspect that presents itself in both situations.

SimpleSam06

leahcim wrote: »

The approach you mention of 'Don't think, right I'm going to ignore this, just do it' is similar to my attitude. The only problem I have with it is that I can’t just not think. Thinking is like breathing you do it whether you want to or not. I completely agree with the just do it bit.

Thanks everyone for your comments, eh I have to admit it did take a lot of time and effort to arrive at this conclusion. I concentrate on what I'm trying to achieve by speaking, rather that the fact that I am actually speaking. Eyes on the prize. I don't face it, I just ignore it utterly. As far as I am concerned, there isn't even a vacant spot where it used to be.

It does get away from me from time to time, and comes with weird little side effects as well (sometimes I forget I am speaking to the extent that I lose modulation in my voice, like many deaf people who can't hear themselves speak), but I correct it pretty quickly. Its a bit like walking a tightrope without knowing that tightropes even exist!

Funnily enough after making that post, I experienced a bit of a resurgence, since I started thinking about it again. As I said, I haven't completely mastered it yet, but I'm definetely on the way to seeing it off once and for all.

SimpleSam06

BigPhil wrote: »

The agonising fear of stuttering, say in a job interview, or giving a presentation in front of your peers must be on par with a person getting screened at customs knowing that the drugs they are carrying could be uncovered.

Its worse than that, even, at least the drug mule will be done with it one way or another. For sufferers, you go through customs every time you open your mouth.

BigPhil

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Its worse than that, even, at least the drug mule will be done with it one way or another. For sufferers, you go through customs every time you open your mouth.

Yeah that is very true and it really hightlights, to non-stutters reading, the burden that us stutters carry with us everyday.

ParkRunner

Some really interesting comments there. I too have spent a lot of time and money on speech therapy, hypnotherapy, all sorts of drugs etc but the one thing I was lacking was support so I hadn't a hope.

I think a lot of stammerers become introvert from the negative experiences and the only way I think to try and help the situation is to where possible express exactly how you are feeling, i.e to talk about the negative experiences and deal with it. My father has a stammer too but he has never admitted it so with no support at home it was not really until I moved out that I could relax some bit about it. It is not an easy thing to do and people might feel uncomfortable listening to a stammerer opening up but I know if I didn't I would end up losing the plot altogether

batalos

Although I've stuttered all my life, it's only over the last year and a half that I have actively decided to deal with it.

I think this is the vital aspect of therapy if there is to be one), and I believe that many speech therapists would agree with this. You have to want to work at alleviating your situation and it isn't particularly easy. It is hard to face up to the situation and take a definite step like attending a course of therapy or going to self-help group meetings. It's also hard to stick at it, especially when you relapse as most of us seem to do.

I did a brief period of speech therapy about ten years ago, but like many people on this thread did not feel I got much out of it. This was one-to-one therapy with a speech therapist: reading out loud, etc. I remember asking about group therapy and being told that there was nothing happening in that regard at the moment. Even them I felt that a group scenario was essential. That's probably while I stopped going, along with the fact that I had to get off work early to go which I wasn't very comfortable with.

I have since completed the DAS course which I have found very useful, and the speech therapists who run that course have contributed significantly to the progress I feel I have made over the last 18 months or so. Having said that, the people who attended the course with me have made a similar contribution.

I agree with Stephen about the iceberg model, though I don't see eye to eye with Joseph Sheehan on everything. However, I would also not totally discard an ennunciation approach either. I'm a firm believer in a mix'n'match approach to therapy; I don't think there is one rigid programme applicable to everyone. I used to have a serious confidence issue in how I spoke. I found that one of the symptoms of my stuttering is that I often mispronounced words, probably because I was concentrating so much in trying to speak fluently. Going back to the reading out loud exercises I was assigned all those years ago, but approaching them from a different perspective, I have improved (in my own perception) my speech enunciation. I don't have such an issue with how I sound now, and can even listen to myself on tape now without cringing This has had a positive effect on my speech and is part of my personal therapy programme.


Therapy, I believe, is a long and drawn out process. Eveyone I have met who I would consider to have made significant progress had to work at it for at least a year and often longer to bear tangible results. It is difficult, and very easy to lapse back to old practices. Regular group meetings are essential I think, both for the emotional support and the opportunities to discuss issues with fellow stutterers (i refuse to use PWS). It also puts a structure on your personal recovery programme. It is a cliché, but the only person who can alleviate your stutter is yourself.

Some people make progress faster than others. Some people may not be quite ready to face up to the issues involved in dealing with their stuttering. It's easy to forget about dealing with your stuttering when you have lots of other issues in your life. Maybe you need to take a break and forget about working on your speech; just as long as this doesn't become an excuse. You may have attended a programme and then done nothing about your speech for a number of years subsequently. There's no shame in picking it up again when you feel ready.

I believe that there is light at the end of the tunnel, and talking to other stutterers and meeting people who have made significant progress has been critical personally. Like one of the previous posters mentioned: I think that only people who have a stutter know what it's really like. Good luck to all on their journeys.

Bass Cadet

Interesting thread. Sorry to tread on the alcohol and drugs road again but I always found after a few drinks I was fluent. It came to the point where I tried to find out exactly what was different in my speech and mind when I was drunk. It was because I actually forgot I had a stammer, I didn't give a damn if I stammered or not, hence speech free from panic and worry. I managed to apply this to everyday situations (sober of course!) and the results are amazing. Ignore/forget the stammer and it cant rise to the surface, even if it does, the key is to not let it bother you but it is a very hard thing to master, which I havn't done yet

Its an interesting psychological condition in so many ways but I've found certain treatments work for some and not for others so I could never knock any of them...

batalos

Bass Cadet wrote: »

Interesting thread. Sorry to tread on the alcohol and drugs road again but I always found after a few drinks I was fluent. It came to the point where I tried to find out exactly what was different in my speech and mind when I was drunk. It was because I actually forgot I had a stammer, I didn't give a damn if I stammered or not, hence speech free from panic and worry. I managed to apply this to everyday situations (sober of course!) and the results are amazing. Ignore/forget the stammer and it cant rise to the surface, even if it does, the key is to not let it bother you but it is a very hard thing to master, which I havn't done yet

Its an interesting psychological condition in so many ways but I've found certain treatments work for some and not for others so I could never knock any of them...

This is touching on NLP (neuro linguistic programming) and CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) which is not normally dependent on the use of intoxicants. NLP, in particular, may have very interesting applications to the treatment of stuttering, and there have been some books written on the topic. The basic premise is factored around how situtations are perceived or 'framed' which ties in with Bass Cadet's post. It is definitely an area I feel has potential and hope to experiment with it over the next year.

Bass Cadet

batalos wrote: »

This is touching on NLP (neuro linguistic programming) and CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) which is not normally dependent on the use of intoxicants. NLP, in particular, may have very interesting applications to the treatment of stuttering, and there have been some books written on the topic. The basic premise is factored around how situtations are perceived or 'framed' which ties in with Bass Cadet's post. It is definitely an area I feel has potential and hope to experiment with it over the next year.

I'm going to read up as much as I can about this. I'm 100% convinced my stammmer is completely physchological and by 'retraining' the stammering mind it can be beaten. It would also be interesting to see how this can be used in conjunction with other therapies such as non-avoidance and/or the mcguire technique (if thats possible at all).

I found this on the BSA website. Very interesting read...
http://www.stammering.org/cognitive.html

Also there is an actual Neuro-Linguistics Stuttering Association. Interesting here to see them using the 'hexagon' model which is used in the McGuire technique
http://www.art-ist.nl/stutternomore/