Patmar v Mc Guire Programme

bohsboy

Having completed both, I'd love to hear some people's experiences of the two and which helped the most.

I attended the Mc Guire Programme in 1999 and found it initially a great help. You certainly can achieve fluency but in order to maintain this requires a military like discipline for the rest of your life. The breathing technique requires a lot of work and effort but will certainly help. I found however that three or four weeks after the course that I was slipping back to old habits. The course itself was tough going and at the time promised the elusive "cure". Some of the parts of the course I found a bit disturbing such as the winner and loser section. A mantra was constantly fed to us that only "losers" fail to achieve fluency.

I found it all a bit cliquey with all the confusing various grades of "graduates", "leaders" and "course leaders". I missed a couple of follow up meetings due to work and I was pulled aside and told to get serious if I wanted to be a "winner".

However, I must say that it has been a huge step forward for stammerers and I'm sure they have fine tuned certain aspects of the course. I was amazed and delighted to see how well Gareth Gates did on the Late Late Show a few weeks ago. On the downside, there are a few aspects of the programme which would worry. The instigator, Dave Mc Guire is banned from practising in the US and had to set up the Programme from Holland. The cost seems hugely expensive for what is quite simply hiring a room for four days. Why so dear?

Patmar
I attended the Patmar course which was funded by the North Western Healthboard in 2002. This course is chiefly run by two speech therapists Patrick Kelly and Maria Mc Donnell. I was very sceptical of this course after the Mc Guire Programme but was pleasantly surprised.

The course is similar in some ways to Mc Guires but spends a lot of time at how stammering has affected us all, gets us to talk about it and realise the hurt and pain it has caused.

I cant speak highly enough of this course as it changed my life. It finally woke me up to the fact that I could no longer go around hiding my stammer at all costs. You are thought to accept the stammer and also put into practice excercises to bring your speech under control but not to disguise the stammer.

Patrick and Maria are absolutely brilliant and put you under no pressure to do anything you don't feel comfortable doing. I stayed for seven days in a hotel in Sligo for the course, had great craic and also came to some major conclusions about my speech and life in general.

I highly recommend this course and as far as I know there is a similar course in Dublin now run by a girl called Duana. I forget her surname but will try and track down some more information and stick it up here.

Regards,

Mick

leahcim

I've only done McGuire and am still active on the McGuire programme.

I agree the McGuire approach can be a little bit aggressive at times. The first course certainly is quiet a challenging experience. They seemed to have toned down the winner looser stuff over the years (It was a little bit over the top imho). Some people like the McGuire approach others detest it.

The reason it is so expensive (€1100 per person) it that they must pay for 2 conference room one large and one small in a hotel near a city centre for three nights over a weekend. That would cost 5 or 6 K in itself. Pay the salary of the person who runs the programme in Ireland (His full time job). Each primary coach gets 150euros per student under their care. I assume they must also pay insurance and don’t forget they are not a charity so they are taxed.

I would speculate that patmar is a vastly more expensive than €1100 per person but the state picks up the tab.

I've never got feedback from anybody who has done patmar.

What approach does the patmar programme take?
Do they teach a technique? Or are they more into the psychology of living your life as a stammerer?

bohsboy

Patmar costs nothing. All covered by the Health Board. However, you must pay for accomodation.

I dont understand how a Mc Guire course can take in 1,100 from about 25 students coming to about 27k. That is a huge profit.

I met this guy, David Rose a few years ago, http://www.david-rose.net/stammer.html and he got threatened with legal action for complaining about Dave Mc Guire.

I'm not anti Mc Guire, in fact I think its great to see as many opportunities for treatment being made available. It would be great if all the different groups could work together but thats life I suppose.

Patmar does use techniques, big on voluntary stammering and openly stammering which can be horrifying at the start of the course but after a day or two it makes sense. The effort and struggle trying to disguise the stammer is what they identify. By accepting the stammer, there is a huge reduction in tension. A big part of the course is dedicated to under the iceberg. The mental state we have been left in due to stammering. There was many tears but it's a very supportive group and confidentiality is assured.

Patrick Kelly, speech therapist, was the pioneer for this group and he established it under the guidance of the North Western Health Board. He can be contacted there for any information or here http://www.stammeringireland.ie/ISA_PATMAR.htm. An absolute gent and will help you in anyway.

leahcim

I think its great that the state is putting money into taking a different approach to tackling stammering. For away too long the only approach followed was just regular speech therapy. Patmar seems similar similar to McGuire inalot of ways. I can definately see how somebody may find it more appealing than McGuire.

ON the whole cost thing.

Patmar costs nothing

It costs nothing to you, it is paid for by your taxes as its state run. Chances are all the money the McGuire programme brings in in a year wouldn't even pay the salary of one of the speech therapists that run patmar, not to mind the cost of the hotel conference room.

Unfortunately the McGuire programme is unlikely to ever get state funding as the people who run it do not have professional qualifications. They do have the experience of a lifetime of stammering and the knowledge of how they handle their own speech.

There are typically 4 McGuire courses a year the numbers on a course vary. The max I have seen is 22 and the min is 13. Its normally around 18 per course.

ParkRunner

I have also done both courses. For me the McGuire programme made my stammer worse but that is partly my fault. I was only 16 or 17 when I did it and the cost of the course coupled with a guaranteed cure put way too much pressure on me personally so I beat myself up when I didn't get the cure! There were at least 35 new people on the course I did so I'd say the made a healthy profit from that course.
Saying all that I'm sure the course has become better and I have heard some great success stories from it.

The Patmar course was much better I thought too. While I still have a stammer I have accepted it more and generally most people don't give a toss that I have it. It was a much more laid back course and really made me realise what the underlying issues are. The only criticism I could have is that it doesn't have the same kind of follow up support as McGuire, well it didn't when I did the course anyway.

dublad23

I did the Maguire in 1999 also and I was only 15. I think initially it helped me but I have completely forgotten the technique now etc.

In recent months I have gone through a lot, aneurism, haemorrage and third nerve palsy.

I have found my speech is now quite bad and I have found myself really down about things.

I guess I could go back to Maguire but have lost all the information and don't know anything about where it is or who runs it now.

Anyone any other advice.

This forum is great - I just found the stammering section today!

Roselm

I realize this is a couple of years late but it may be of help to someone:
Your local HSE Speech and Language Therapy Service should have a therapist who works with adults and could see you for therapy around stammering. To find your nearest Speech Therapist go to hse.ie and click on the following...

Find a health service; Local health offices; (choose your local area); Therapy services; Speech and Language Therapy

Hope this is helpful

Pinky99

Is there a website for Patmar? I have been on the McGuire programme before and each time I have come off it after the 3 days I have been very sick especially after the first time i was ever on the course.

bohsboy

I'd say it's all that breathing and exhaling into each others faces....

Pinky99

bohsboy wrote: »

I'd say it's all that breathing and exhaling into each others faces....

Yeah it was all the breathing and exhaling, I think they should invest in those paper masks that just cover the mouth

Stephen P

PATMAR isn't going any more. There are other similar courses, you should find the details in the forum.

Pinky99

Stephen P wrote: »

PATMAR isn't going any more. There are other similar courses, you should find the details in the forum.

Why did it stop ?

steamengine

Pinky99 wrote: »

Is there a website for Patmar? I have been on the McGuire programme before and each time I have come off it after the 3 days I have been very sick especially after the first time i was ever on the course.

http://www.patrickkellystammering.com

This may be what you are looking for !!!

Stephen P

Pinky99 wrote: »

Why did it stop ?

Not too sure really, funding maybe? I didn't do that course so sorry I can't be of more help.

The website steamengine quoted is similiar to PATMAR. The "PAT" in PATMAR is Patrick Kelly.

overthebridge

I did my 1st course on the the McGuire Programme many years ago. I was a severe overt stammerer.
I have found the tools and tehcniques, both physical and psychological, an immense help to me.
In the early days of my recovery it was quite intense, with lots of speaking needed to practice my tools and tehcniques.
But this initial intensity, in my case, was only required for about 12 months. Once I had worked through this period,
call it serving my apprenticeship if you like, I found that a lot of what I had been practicing was now coming to me auotmatically.
The physical side of my recovery was coming much easier and the psychological aspect was starting to change for the positive.

Over the years I have reached a level of fluency that I once thought was the stuff of dreams. I am still a work in progress but I am
continously moving forward and am learning more about my triggers and what makes my sensitivity rise more in certain situations over others.

As has been said by many, the McGuire Progamme is not for everyone but I feel that for me it was the best decision I ever made in my life.

Mont

Roselm wrote: »

I realize this is a couple of years late but it may be of help to someone:
Your local HSE Speech and Language Therapy Service should have a therapist who works with adults and could see you for therapy around stammering. To find your nearest Speech Therapist go to hse.ie and click on the following...

Find a health service; Local health offices; (choose your local area); Therapy services; Speech and Language Therapy

Hope this is helpful

I looked up the HSE but as I am over 18 there doesnt seem to be any courses for me. Would anyone know of a good speech therapist or stammering therapist I can go to preferably on an individual basis. I suffer from a stammer btw.

Michael O Shea

I completed my first McGuire Programme course inOctober 1999. To say that I was the most sceptical person that ever done the McGuire Programme would be a huge understatement. I stammered very overtly for close on forty years. From the age of six both my parents and teachers done their best to get me some help regarding my stammer, which over the years became progressively worse. I done various forms of speech therapy until my early teens. Over the interveining years until I was thirty five, I spent serious time and money trying to get to grips with my verbal communication. Anything that I heard about or read about I tried it, listening too and learning a lot along the way, but to avail. My perceptions and feelings during this time were this fool (me) is back again, easy money for them, feelings of frustration, that no matter how hard I tried what I was being thought it did not seem to improve my verbal communication in the real world, no real back up, again people taking my money and walking away, this was my reality. Of course I met some lovely people along the way, they could in fairness to them talk about stammering until the cows came home, but they could not and would not walk the walk in the real world with their theory, techniques, or beliefs, my reality and experiances during this time was that none them really understood stammering. Only one Speech Therapist ever asked me how I felt before, during, or after a severe speech block, her name was Sister Monica, it was my last day with her in her clinic in Kilkenny, the year was 1964, I was nine years old, no one and I mean no one ever asked me that question again, or shared those feelings with me until October 1999, thirty five years later.

Is it necessery to to improve your verbal communication, only the person who is challenged by stammering can honestly answer that, some people want a new quality of life regarding their verbal communication, some people dont, such is life, we are all different, for me that quality of life regarding my verbal communication since I was a young child meant and means so much, it is sometimes hard to explain.

The McGuire Programme was the start of my apprenticeship to improve my quality of life regarding my verbal communication. They thought me tools and techniques to ease and improve my speech. They helped and supported me to address my whole holistic self regarding my stammering, not just the stammering part. They thought me the importance of being aware of triggers that drove my stammering behaviour, they gave me access to the huge knowledge base who were ordinery people like myself, who are all challenged by stammering. This knowledge base has been built up over the past sixteen years from the knowledge and experiances of people who stammer from many cultures on many continents not just Ireland. Advice, knowledge, and support from the professional community is also a huge resource which is shared right across all regions of the McGuire Programme.

What really clicked with me on my first course was the people who attended were like me, people who stammered, they were addressing the challenge of stammering from the inside out, not the outside in, this approch was new to me, the tools and techniques, there form of application was new to me, most important of all was the unique support structure and back up, not only during the course but for weeks, months, and years after my first course which I had never witnessed before, this was new to me, the support group system in Ireland, this was also new to me, they were prepered not only to talk the talk, but to walk the walk with me, looking back now, it was this support after the course which I had never experianced before made the real difference to me. Of course if I did not use it, if I did practice what I had learned, it would prove useless which is the same for any therapy, courses, or programmes which we may avail of. We will only get out what we are prepered to put in. Vital of course is what the therapy, course, or programmes are willing to provide to you with in the form of backup and support which is crucial in the long run.

During the research for my book "Why I Called My Sister Harry" I was given the opportunity to be an observer on the "Patmar Programme" it is a great pity that it is no longer running, I was very impressed by what I heard and observed while there, the same can be said for (DAS) Dublin Adult Stuttering who kindly gave me the same opportunity as "Patmar" it is alo a great pity that resources for (DAS) have been cut back, I know they are doing their best with the resources which they have available to them. Many other courses and programmes were also attended outside of the state as part of the research for the book so we could get a balance on what was available to the stammering community in other coutries, and how other countries approach and support people who are challenged by stammering. I was impressed by what by what I heard, observed, and experianced. There are genuine good people out there who who are willing and able to support people who are challenged by stammering.

The internet has had a very positive impact on the stammering community world wide, people have easy access to a huge resource of knowledge and information on what is available regarding help and support, shared knowledge and experiances can be a powerful resource if it is your wish to deal with your challenge of stammering.

My advice from my own personal experiance is if you desire to improve your verbal communication you should research it well, be open minded to everything, do not have tunnell vision, be flexable in your thinking, be very warey of people who run down other forms of help and support just for the sake of it, also people who run down other therapy, courses, or peogrammes other then their own, be open and speak about your stammering, it is only a very small part of you, yet it can be very isolating and have a very negative impact for some, not all. People who are challenged by stammering are the real experts on how they think about, and how they feel about their stammering.

All of the above represent my own opinions and experiances. I am and proud to be a speech coach, course instructor, and staff trainer on the McGuire Programme which gives me the opportunity to work with and support people who are challenged by stammering. I know from experiance that the McGuire Programme is not a cure or the perfect fit for everyone who is challenged by stammering, it was a vital cog in my apprentceship, the people there who are/were challenged by stammering were a vital part of my apprenticeship, what I done in the interveining years beyond the McGuire Programme was and is a vital part in my apprenticeship, is my apprenticeship finished, no it is not, am I cured as in one hundred per cent verbally fluent, no I am not, am I cured of the negative feelings, mindset, and mentality of stammering, yes I am.

Speak soon,
Michael.
www.michaeloshea.ie

bohsboy

As I said before in a previous post to you Michael, I know you from being on that first course with you back in 1999 and you are a genuine, straight up sound guy. Its great to see how far you have gone from those days back in the Ashling Hotel.

I tried Mc Guire and it worked for me short term, but I applaud the way that you acknowledge other forms of therapy. Patmar worked for me but I can't slate Mc Guire as I believe any attempts to educate or help people with stammering are fantastic.

The internet is a great asset to the stammering community and can help people who feel isolated. The monthly meeting groups around the country are a great help and I urge anyone to just give it a try. New people are always welcome.

I look forward to your next big step Michael.

PS. I asked you before but where can I buy the book!?

Michael O Shea

Hi Boysboy,
Since we go back that far just send me a private mail with your address and I will send you a complimentary copy, or you can get a copy from the ISA for €20.00 with all proceeds going to stammering awareness.

As you said any attempts to educate and help people who stammer are fantastic, let the person who stammers decide themselves on what way they would like to go regarding getting help and support is how I always approach giving advice.

Speak soon,
Michael.

Roselm

Mont: There won't necessarily be a "course" running in your area that does PATMAR for example but each area should have a Speech and Language Therapist who works with adults that need to see one.
This therapist will see clients who may have a pronunciation difficulty (speech), language difficulty, swallowing (dysphagia), voice or fluency difficulty (stammer). Most people who are receiving therapy for a stammer through the HSE are seen by their local HSE therapist who will explore the types of areas that would be covered on a "course".
Hope this is of help.

I tried the McGuire programme recently but left midway at the 'decision' point.
To be honest, I felt like a complete and utter failure leaving and that drive back to Dublin was not a fun one at all.

I left the course as I've (in my own mind) come to terms with my stammer and have no problem anymore standing in front a person, a group, a crowd or a microphone and talking away (I was 'that' economist on RTE). I felt like **** leaving though as I met a lot of people who have now achieved perfect fluency but I was unwilling to go through with what the programme demanded in order to achieve that.

I met some people there including Michael who were great to talk to and really are inspirational in the way that have completely managed to control their speech. However, I'll be honest as well and say that I was not impressed by some of the people who are involved in running the course, but its the way they run the course and it seems to work for most people.

My advice for anyone thinking about the programme is to try it; you don't have to go through and pay the fee if you don't like it (I didn't) and there was no pressure on me to stay. I wasn't expecting the crash afterwards though.

The programme is very regimented and it does make your primary focus on your speech. It does feel like boot camp and its something to take into account before you go. All in all though, there are some amazing people there who have really developed a perfect state of fluency who demonstrate what is possible.

I still have my good and bad days, and to be honest am still feeling some ramifications of walking away from the Salthill hotel. I still get upset, frustrated and angry sometimes about my speech but **** it, I no longer fear talking and speaking to people and I'm no longer ashamed of my stammer, something that I felt (but I may well be wrong) was incompatible with the McGuire program.

Best of luck to everyone on it though, fair play to you all for having both the balls and the determination to see the programme out.

DelftBlue

Deleted User wrote: »

I tried the McGuire programme recently but left midway at the 'decision' point.
To be honest, I felt like a complete and utter failure leaving and that drive back to Dublin was not a fun one at all.

.

You are far from a failure, you tried it at least, fair play to you for that. But I think what happened to you shows that the McGuire programme is not for everyone.

I never did the McGuire myself but I know a good few people who did. For some it worked great and they maintained the positive outcomes they achieved on the 3 day course. I know some people who had bad experiences of the McGuire and have very little good to say about it. I know people people who did the McGuire and then went on to do traditional speech therapy and I know poeple who went on to do McGuire after traditional therapy.

I have noticed about the McGuire that it is very ' American' with the focus being on success, becoming a successful speaker and being eloquent speakers, I think most people who stammer just want to be happy with the way they speak. Another thing about the programme is that if it doesn't work for you it is because you are not working hard enough at the programme rather than the programme is not the right on for you.

I am not anti the McGuire I just know I would not have done well on the programme because of the regimented nature of it.............I don't like being told what to do!

You should consider attending self help group meeting if there is one near you, check the Irish stammering Association website to see when & where they are on. Or give the ISA a call or drop them a mail if you want someone from a self help group to get in touch with you.
You will meet people who have tried different therapies & programmes or none at all and everyone is willing to share their experiences with members.

Give yourself another chance, you deserve it

Keep on posting on Boards, it's a great way to keep in touch with other people who stammer and good luck

fioreilly82

patmar is still going, just looked up Patrick Kelly, hes doing a course in mullingar around the 11th of march 2011.....thinking of going to it, the McGuire programme is too expensive for me!!

Big chopper

I don't have any experience of Patmar, so i can't comment on that.
But i joined the McGuire programme in Spring 2009.

i can understand some of the negative comments here as it can be a bit strict during your first few months, but once you stick with it, it becomes a bit more relaxed and very enjoyable.
also from talking to some of the people who have been on the programme longer than me, it was a lot more strict back in the nineties and the early 2000's. but the instructors have tried to make it more relaxed and more appealing to people.
that said i feel, the people who are more successful, are the ones who put the effort and hard work in.

for me it has been successful, i'm not cured or anything, but my speech has improved much more than i expect, and with that my confidence has also increased.
i now have absolutely no fear when entering speaking situations, and come out of most of them after speaking very well.


The McGuire Programme are having an Open day on Saturday 22th January in the Springhill Court hotel, Waterford Rd, Kilkenny at 1.00pm.
more info on www.stammering.ie

please mention it to any family or friends who are effected by stammering,
there is help out there, they don't have to spend years stuggling to speak like i did before i joined.

sadie9

I did the Patmar course back in 2002.
I found it great. I'd highly recommend it. It's the PatrickKelly course now.
I haven't done the Maguire course, it seems to be successful for a lot of people especially young people.

One thing I don't like about the Maguire programme when I hear people talk about it is this idea of success and failure.

This suggest a couple of things to me that are damaging I would think:

If you are successful and stay on the course it means you are a hard worker and a successful person and should be proud of yourself.
If you are 'unsuccessful' and leave the course or you are unsuccessful on it, they tell you that you are not a hard worker - implying you are some sort of slacker or failure.
This further implies that the stammer is something you could fix if you were prepared to 'put the hard work' in.
So this implies it's your fault you stammer and are too lazy to fix it.
So off you go home with yourself, you slacker, you weakling, we can't help you here.

Most stammerers have suffered the equivalent of years of shame and emotional abuse (most of this emotionally bullying we do to ourselves) as a result of their stammer.
This perpetuates the myth that stammering is something we can stop doing if we really try and we need to apologise to people for the way we are.

People come to these courses in a state of emotional fragility which should not be underestimated.
For some people the emotional feelings which are uncovered rapidly on a weekend course are just too much to manage and they end up leaving.
But it's a pity they need to take home, on top of everything else, a sense that it has been confirmed they can't work hard enough to 'fix' their stammer.

Michael O Shea

Hi Sadie9.
While I respect your personal views, and you are certainly entitled to them, I am afraid some of your statements are quite outragious.

Firstly, you have stated that you never attended a McGuire course, so I would question where did you get your accurate and informative information from??? was ir hearsay, innuendo, or maybe driven by a seperate or personal agenda??? it certainly did not come from your personal experiances from attending a McGuire course.

Secondly, what can be so damaging to a person who stammers if they are being empowered and supported by a fellow stammerer who is on the same journey as they are embarking on themselves, people who will have empathy with them as everyone concerned is challenged by stammering.

Thirdly, every person who wishes to deal with their stammering by whatever way they choose should be very proud, as soon as people make contact we tell them how proud we are to have the opportunity to work with them, how courageous they are as we know from our experiance what it is like to take that first step forward to improve their verbal communication which leads to a new quality of life for many, not all, as the McGuire Programme is not a cure or a quick fix for anybody who stammerers.

Fourthly, no one and I mean no one,is ever told or is it insinuated in any way that they are a failure or success, people who wish to leave for whatever reason are free to do so, from my experiance there is a multitude of reasons for doing so, never have I heard or witnessed in my eleven years involvement with the Irish McGuire Programme anyone leaving because they were told as implied by your post "you are not a hard worker" "slaker" "failure" "its your own fault" "lazy" "you weakling" how in all honesty could any person who is challenged by stammering tell a fellow stammerer something like that.

You are correct that most stammerers have suffered a great deal, shame, feelings of difference, emotional abuse, percieved failure, low self esteem, and much more, all of which are dealt with in a positive and compasonate way as most of us have been there and know what it is like.

You are also correct in stating that some, not all people who go on courses are in a state of emotional fragility, I know I certainly was, we never ignore or underestamate this, it is dealt with in a caring and understanding way learned from sixteen years experiance in dealing with people who are challenged by stammering, this understanding and support is not just on a three day course, it is there for as long as the person requires it.

When you strip away the label McGuire Programme what is underneath is Irish people who work to give people who are challenged by stammering a new quality of life regarding their verbal communication, people who work selflessly for the common good, they work to empower others to speak without fear, to empower others to say what they want to say when they want to say it without feelings of shame or difference, to empower them to accept that stammering is only part them not all of them. All of this is good, no ifs, no buts, just good. People who are challenged by stammering helping people who are challenged by stammering, we have learned our way into it , we can learn our way out of it.

Parents, Teenagers, and Adults contact me on a weekly basis to discuss and get advice on stammering and its releated behaviour, part of my advice is to educate themselves by surfing various websites to get as much information as possible and to realise that they are not alone with their stammering. Boards.ie is one of the sites I recommend to get a true and balenced view of what is happening regarding stammering in Ireland, I am afraid your post is neither true or balanced, but we let the reader decide that.

"Potentially damaging to some" has been aired regarding nearly all courses which are run outside of the academic world, the same learned professionals forgot to add in the fact that these courses can be potentially healing to others which is of great relevence to most.

Speak soon,
Michael.
www.michaeloshea.ie

sadie9

Hi Michael,
You are right, my only experience of Maguire is what I've read on here and hearing people speak about their experiences of it.
When I see people who have done Maguire and gotten great 'success' from it it, I have often considered going one of the courses, but it is this issue of success or failure that scares me away.

I guess what I'm really expressing are my own fear of failure, that I'm assuming I'd feel if I 'failed' on such a course, I would probably assume I was a slacker and a failure and not a hard worker - if I had to leave it early.

Someone at a Stammering conference day a year or so ago distinctly said 'if you are not prepared to put the work in, Maguire is not for you'.
This hard work business keeps being mentioned as the only factor mentioned in order for people to be successful.

Two people on this very thread have said the following about the Maguire:

"Another thing about the programme is that if it doesn't work for you it is because you are not working hard enough at the programme rather than the programme is not the right on for you." In this quote we seen then that it is the person who is at fault - not Maguire just not suiting them.

And another person said:

"that said i feel, the people who are more successful, are the ones who put the effort and hard work in."


So the point I'm really making is: the reason why people might leave Maguire early and not continue or be 'unsuccessful' on it -is not always due to the fact that they are not hard workers.

There may be strong emotional reasons why they can't go forward just at that point in time...and maybe Maguire should acknowledge this more in their talks - that no matter what therapy you choose - there can be a number of issues that will prevent you from moving forward at that point in time. But your personal qualities are not to blame for this.

What is coming across to the listener (or what I get from it ) that there is a rigid view that Maguire will work for ANYONE no matter what their circumstances - they just have to work hard at it and follow the rules.
And the only reason ever given for being unsuccessful that I have ever heard is this not working hard enough at it business...

overthebridge

Hi Sadie9,

I did the McGuire Programme about 7 years ago and have been a regular attendee since. I am of the thinking that "we" the stammering community should be working together as one for the greater good of each other. Not sniping and picking holes where sometimes there are no holes. No programme/speech therapy/course is perfect and none should claim to be. But the single most important thing is we are working for the same common goal to create a safe environment for stammerers to come and get the help that has sometimes been lacking.
I have no hidden agenda here and from my experience no one on the Irish McGuire Programme has either. I would never speak ill of any other form of speech therapy. Especially one that I had no experience of.
I came through the public speech therapy system and on into the private speech therapy system and for me it did not work. I also attended a hypnotherapist in the 90's, at great expense, and that did not help me either. But I would never discourage any other stammerers from doing the same. Simply because what doesn't work for me may work someone else and vice versa.

If I may can I take you up on a few points you make in your last post.

sadie9 wrote: »

Someone at a Stammering conference day a year or so ago distinctly said 'if you are not prepared to put the work in, Maguire is not for you'.
This hard work business keeps being mentioned as the only factor mentioned in order for people to be successful.

A hard work ethic is needed in order to become good at anything and with something as serious as stammerering then harder work is probably needed.
I can't speak for any other speech programmes but I'm sure hard work is needed for them also.
I have the www.stammering.ie website open in front of me here and along with hard work being mentioned as being necessary to recover - ownership, commitment and a passion to do something about your speech is mentioned also.

sadie9 wrote: »

Two people on this very thread have said the following about the Maguire:

"Another thing about the programme is that if it doesn't work for you it is because you are not working hard enough at the programme rather than the programme is not the right on for you." In this quote we seen then that it is the person who is at fault - not Maguire just not suiting them.

And another person said:

"that said i feel, the people who are more successful, are the ones who put the effort and hard work in."

The first quote you use is from a poster called DelftBlue, who by his own admission has never attended a McGuire Course. Who might I add has only 1 post to his name. Read into that how you see fit.

DelftBlue wrote: »

I never did the McGuire myself but I know a good few people who did.

DelftBlue wrote: »

Another thing about the programme is that if it doesn't work for you it is because you are not working hard enough at the programme rather than the programme is not the right on for you.

I don't understand what you are trying to say with your second quote.

Big chopper wrote: »

that said i feel, the people who are more successful, are the ones who put the effort and hard work in.

Putting speech aside - in my experience of life, those that work hard and put the effort in are the ones who are most successful at anything.

For me going on the McGuire Programee has been the single most difficult thing I have ever done in my life. To allow me to reach the stage I am at now I have made many sacrifices with both my family and work life.
No one ever said it was going to be easy and it wasn't.

Life is all about choices and ultimately people will make their own choice on what they want to do. But let's not cloud peoples minds here and let them make that choice based on clear and concise facts. Innuendo and heresay never travels well.

DelftBlue

I am really enjoying this debate here on boards and hearing some misconceptions being aired and clarified and a healthy exchange of differing views.

Oh dear, I have been found out, I am a lurker, this is only my second post. I wish, however, that people would not make assumptions about me when they don't know anything about me. Taking cheap shots at someone you don't know is not very objective.

It is true I never did the McGuire programme and I am speaking based on what people have told me, what I have observed and heard and what I have read about.

I think the McGuire programme has helped a lot of people in Ireland with their stammering, I also think speech therapy has helped many people in Ireland with their stammering.

Originally Posted by DelftBlue
Another thing about the programme is that if it doesn't work for you it is because you are not working hard enough at the programme rather than the programme is not the right on for you.

To clarify, the point I was trying to make was that, from what I understand, the implication is that if the individual is not successful it is because they have not worked hard enough, when in some cases the individual may not be successful because it is the not the right programme for them. By its own admission the McGuire programme is not for everyone

The following are some quotes from the info pack on stammering.ie


IS THIS PROGRAMME FOR YOU?
This programme is suitable for people who really want to recover from stammering and are willing to work hard and use our follow-up support network. If you feel that stammering is not a major issue in your life or you are not prepared to work hard and use our follow-up support network, then this programme is not for you. (page 1)

On this course, we will instruct, motivate and support you throughout your recovery. However it is up to each individual and their personal motivation to ensure success with our programme.
Expect to work very hard from wake-up to sleep-time. (page 2)

Following the Guidelines!
On completion of the course, we strongly encourage you to work hard, follow our guidance and avail of your follow-up support (which you have paid for) in order that you give yourself the best possible opportunity to recover from stammering. It is our experience that those that give it their best shot, follow our guidance and use our follow-up support network reach Freedom very quickly and hold on to their Freedom. (page 3)

How many finish the programme?
Approx 20% give up if they have a relapse after the course.....they expect the “magic pill” and don’t accept that THEY have the major role to play in the recovery process. (page 5)

What is the success rate?
We have a 80% success rate meaning people are continually advancing with their speech and are doing things now they wouldn’t have dreamt of doing before the course.
This statistic is based on detailed and comprehensive success evaluations which are carried out every three months and verified by a McGuire instructor from outside the region. (page 5)

I think working hard is at the core what is expected of people who follow the McGuire programme if they want to achieve success, a success which is defined and measured by course instructors, not the individual themselves. Working hard is also defined by the programme.

There is nothing wrong with working hard or taking responsibility for your own speech, in fact I think that is what people who stammer should be doing, but as an individual, I feel, it is up to me to decide how hard I want to work and to decide what success is and whether I have achieved it.

sadie9

Another point is that people who stammer themselves may not, just because of that reason, always the best people to create change in other people who stammer.
(They can support them and accept them and love them and not judge them of course, no would deny all that is fantastic and a massive and necessary help in terms of managing one's speech).

However, there is a natural tendency to assume that things feel the same for you as it does for me, because we share the stammering experience. And that what works for me will work for you. And then the tendency that creeps in is that you should share the same vision of what's success as me.

A qualified counsellor or psychotherapist, for example who doesn't stammer could perhaps understand a person even more than a fellow stammerer, because their job is to really find out what it feels like for that person. They are also trained to leave their own views, feelings and values of a person should be, behind. It is probably the only environment a person will get true non-judgement from another person.

A qualified speech therapist, especially the new breed of stammer-aware therapist also can be very aware and understanding of the underlying issues.

So an individually tailored approach may work better for some people, as oppposed to the group programme structure.
Stammering is how we relate to to other people, and some people may already be in such an emotional pickle dealing with relationships & stammering & approval & expectations, that the extra job of having to relate in a group can be overwhelming.
So if a group programme doesn't work, it could be the group format doesn't suit them and then they could try some individual work with a suitably trained professional.

I'm not sure why this thread was started - the question Patmar v McGuire was loaded in the first place, so naturally unbalanced answers are resulting.

To be fair, having tried and dropped out of the McGuire program - I can see where sadie and delftblue are coming from.

I did feel, from some of the people involved, there was an element of fluency = hard work in application of mechanical techniques while disfluency = you didn't work hard enough at it.

The course is not a sympathetic one in the sense you don't sit in a circle and hold hands. You will be made stand up and push your limits and for many people this will result in tears, anger or frustration and in no way is this a bad thing. You learn that you can speak through this.

However, the course is a boot camp and the tecniques are rigid and one size fits all, you either take it or your leave it and they don't really pitch the 'leave' aspect in a flattering light.

Having chosen the 'leave' option, a couple of the instructors were very sound out and willing to discuss the issues. Micheal himself had an excellent session with me and was very open about various different measures. However, for others involved the response was a lot colder and it is this response that has stuck with me and I imagine, others.

People who go to the mcguire programme go for various different reasons, they go with their own demons, fear and beliefs and for an organisation that prides itself and helping stammering I would have thought that there would be more empathy expressed for someone who is facing not only back into what life they shared with their stammer before they tried the programme (and if they were like me, they'd have built a lot hope around the programme) but they face back into that life knowing they failed at what is seen as some that is seen as 'successful' in helping obtain fluency.

I know that I wasn't prepared to work with the techniques on offer their, but not because I wasn't willing to work on my stammer. However, I left with no distinction between those two points. I'll admit that I was naive joining up but that did result in me leaving hurt and upset and facing into a very bleak stammering period. Not all of the above was the fault of the people of the programme, but there was no net present to help those who found out the course wasn't for them, something which I think is quite lacking.

As I said above, I'd recommend the programme to anyone but it isn't the be all and end all that it can be made out to be (and not by the organisers, but by people who are just hoping to be fluent and to end their own personal shame).