Car impounded for VRT...

boycee09 · 05-02-2008 10:10pm

Customs duties i.e. VRT is an illegal tax that was abolished under Article 25 of the Treaty of Rome. People are under the illusion that Customs have the power to sieze your car for non payment of this illegal tax but they do not have the right to do this. PLEASE REFER TO THE IRISH DRIVERS ASSOCIATION.ORG website for more information. Customs have people frightened into thinking they have the power to take a car but they do not. They call this car a 'foreign registered vehicle' but there is no such thing unless the car was bought in Japan or USA etc. We are all members of the EU and the Treaty of Rome allowed for free movement of goods between member states including a car. This is a double tax on cars as tax was already paid on this car when it was first purchased. They are now trying to get you to pay that tax again. We need to stand up for our E.U. law rights. NEVER HAND OVER THE KEYS OF YOUR CAR TO CUSTOMS. They cannot take your car unless you allow them to. Again please refer to the 'Irish Drivers Association'. We are active in trying to fight this illegal tax but we cannot succeed without numbers and support of the people.

Our man in Havana · 05-02-2008 10:18pm

boycee09 wrote: »

Customs duties i.e. VRT is an illegal tax that was abolished under Article 25 of the Treaty of Rome. People are under the illusion that Customs have the power to sieze your car for non payment of this illegal tax but they do not have the right to do this. PLEASE REFER TO THE IRISH DRIVERS ASSOCIATION.ORG website for more information. Customs have people frightened into thinking they have the power to take a car but they do not. They call this car a 'foreign registered vehicle' but there is no such thing unless the car was bought in Japan or USA etc. We are all members of the EU and the Treaty of Rome allowed for free movement of goods between member states including a car. This is a double tax on cars as tax was already paid on this car when it was first purchased. They are now trying to get you to pay that tax again. We need to stand up for our E.U. law rights. NEVER HAND OVER THE KEYS OF YOUR CAR TO CUSTOMS. They cannot take your car unless you allow them to. Again please refer to the 'Irish Drivers Association'. We are active in trying to fight this illegal tax but we cannot succeed without numbers and support of the people.

I would pay money to see you argue that at the side of road with a customs officer.

JohnCleary · 05-02-2008 10:32pm

Bond-007 wrote: »

I would pay money to see you argue that at the side of road with a customs officer.

I'm sure lot's of people argue this on the side of the road. What i'd pay money for is to see the person arguing with the customs officer win

boycee09 · 05-02-2008 10:35pm

I have a Northern Reg car myself and I have already been paid a visit by a customs officer and he will be getting no money from me. Have a look at the Irish Drivers Association website and if you are really interested in this issue, contact the chairman of the association and he'll soon convince you that you should not pay this illegal tax. The secretary of the association is a barristor in E.U law and is fighting this all the way. Do yourself a favour and have a look at the website.

Seth Brundle · 05-02-2008 10:49pm

boycee9 - VRT is unfair but not illegal. It doesn't stop the free movement of goods

boycee09 · 05-02-2008 10:58pm

Of course it stops the free movement of goods. If you have to pay a tax then its not free is it. Do you know anything about your E.U. law rights. Not only is it not fair but its also illegal. The E.U law supercedes Irish law and they have abolished Customs Duties. Read up on it before you make such a desicion. Its people who believe what you have just said that is making this fight against VRT harder to win. Have you ever heard of someone being taken to court by Customs to get payment for VRT? No because it would open a can of worms for them. Look at the website for the Irish Drivers Assocation. If they were giving out false information don't you think Customs would have sued them for giving false information or something. The chairman drives a van plastered in statements such as 'VRT is an illegal tax' etc and has come in contact with many Gardai and Customs Officers and they have never questioned his advertising........because it is not false. I used to believe the very same as you until I came in contact with this association. Not enough people know about this

Guy:Incognito · 05-02-2008 11:06pm

boycee09 wrote: »

Of course it stops the free movement of goods.

How does it. You can freely bring a foreign reg car (which is what it is, anywhere outside the republic of Ireland is foreign, the EU didnt amalgamte us into one single country) into the country, you just cant register it, which requires VRT to be paid, or legally drive it on the roads.

As Kbannon says , its not illegal, just like its not illegal in the other countries that have it. If it was illegal and so easy to avoid, why are there not lots of cases before the courts, sure lawyers love an easy victory. It's not a customs duty, its a tax on registering your wehicle.

boycee09 wrote: »

If they were giving out false information don't you think Customs would have sued them for giving false information or something. The chairman drives a van plastered in statements such as 'VRT is an illegal tax' etc and has come in contact with many Gardai and Customs Officers and they have never questioned his advertising........because it is not false. I used to believe the very same as you until I came in contact with this association. Not enough people know about this

He's not "advertising" anything so how can he be sued for false advertisement? Theres plenty of people on here giving out wrong information about things, doesnt mean they can be sued.

boycee09 · 05-02-2008 11:18pm

First of all it costs thousands to take on the state and nobody can afford to do this. The association are trying to get money together to fight this but when there are people choosing to ignore what they're fighting for then it becomes very difficult.
Second of all that was one of my points....the Customs have never taken anyone to court as they know they're fighting a losing battle. I am not sure of figures but I have heard of about 100,000euro to take on the state..hence the reason it has not been done.
Thirdly, article 10 of the Treaty of Rome states "prohibition between Member States of customs duties on imports and exports and of all charges having equivalent effect, and the adoption of a common customs tariff in their relations with third countries."....."and all charges having the equivalent effect" means the government cannot re-name the tax and continue to charge it, which they have done. I could spend all night arguing over this but if you choose not to agree thats your choice but your doing yourself no favours. I would pay to see you argue this with the chairman of the association and the secretary of the association who happens to be a barrister specialising in E.U law
And finally, we joined up as members of the E.U and agreed to abide by E.U law. We are a member state of the E.U and should be adhering to what we signed up to

jimmycrackcorm · 05-02-2008 11:26pm

boycee09 wrote: »

Of course it stops the free movement of goods. If you have to pay a tax then its not free is it. Do you know anything about your E.U. law rights. Not only is it not fair but its also illegal. The E.U law supercedes Irish law and they have abolished Customs Duties. Read up on it before you make such a desicion. Its people who believe what you have just said that is making this fight against VRT harder to win. Have you ever heard of someone being taken to court by Customs to get payment for VRT? No because it would open a can of worms for them. Look at the website for the Irish Drivers Assocation. If they were giving out false information don't you think Customs would have sued them for giving false information or something. The chairman drives a van plastered in statements such as 'VRT is an illegal tax' etc and has come in contact with many Gardai and Customs Officers and they have never questioned his advertising........because it is not false. I used to believe the very same as you until I came in contact with this association. Not enough people know about this

If you are changing residence to Ireland, then you can import your car without paying VRT. Hence it does not prevent free movement. As for that guy driving the van plastered in signs such as "VRT is an illegal tax", I don't think the Gardai or customs would be bothered whether it said that or "The end of the world is nigh". VRT is about as illegal as stamp duty is except stamp duty for someone buying their home is more heinous.

Guy:Incognito · 05-02-2008 11:26pm

boycee09 wrote: »

First of all it costs thousands to take on the state and nobody can afford to do this.

Nobody has "thousands" ?

I could go get a loan for "thousands" tomorow.

Surely a solicitor could afford to take his own case to court, especially when he's guarenteed to win, no?

boycee09 wrote: »

. The association are trying to get money together to fight this but when there are people choosing to ignore what they're fighting for then it becomes very difficult.

Whats to fight? They are going to win easy arent they?

boycee09 wrote: »

Second of all that was one of my points....the Customs have never taken anyone to court as they know they're fighting a losing battle.

They have impounded plenty of cars. High end ones belonging to rich people who no doubt have solicitors on retainers, surely the solicitor would advise them to go to court and secure himself an easy win and a nice payday?

You also havent adressed the issue of declaring that there are no such things as foreign countries within the eu. Are you Irish? Or English/Or German/Or French/ Or does your passport say "european"?

Seth Brundle · 05-02-2008 11:28pm

boycee09 wrote: »

...
Thirdly, article 10 of the Treaty of Rome states "prohibition between Member States of customs duties on imports and exports and of all charges having equivalent effect, and the adoption of a common customs tariff in their relations with third countries."....."and all charges having the equivalent effect" means the government cannot re-name the tax and continue to charge it, which they have done.
...

When Mr. Ahern decided to remove the import duty and replace it with a registration tax (with different rates from the old duty) that are payable by all vehicles, not just those being imported, he removed the possibility that we are in breach of this law.
Try again!

boycee09 · 05-02-2008 11:29pm

of course he is advertising. He has been on nearly every radio show he can get onto telling people about this. He drives a van that is plastered in statements about VRT, NCT, TAX etc. He hands out leaflets, holds protests outside the Dail etc. How is that not advertising. Have you never heard of the papers being sued for misprinting information. I know the papers always twist the truth about people and you can't believe everything you read but this man has put his life into fighting for Irish Drivers. I presume you are a driver? I cannot count the amount of times the NCT has been in the papers for their requirement of staff to fail a number of cars every day to meet their quota even thought there is nothing wrong with a lot of the cars. This man has met with the Road Safety Authority and provided them with proof of this rip off and has fought for a fairer NCT etc. You are very quick to tell me I'm wrong but i'd love to see you have this conversation with the Association. Have you even looked at their website?

Guy:Incognito · 05-02-2008 11:33pm

boycee09 wrote: »

of course he is advertising. He has been on nearly every radio show he can get onto telling people about this. He drives a van that is plastered in statements about VRT, NCT, TAX etc. He hands out leaflets, holds protests outside the Dail etc. How is that not advertising. Have you never heard of the papers being sued for misprinting information. I know the papers always twist the truth about people and you can't believe everything you read but this man has put his life into fighting for Irish Drivers. I presume you are a driver? I cannot count the amount of times the NCT has been in the papers for their requirement of staff to fail a number of cars every day to meet their quota even thought there is nothing wrong with a lot of the cars. This man has met with the Road Safety Authority and provided them with proof of this rip off and has fought for a fairer NCT etc. You are very quick to tell me I'm wrong but i'd love to see you have this conversation with the Association. Have you even looked at their website?

Whats he advertising? Can I buy it?

Personally Ive never seen anything in the papers about fail qoutas. Are they like the ones thar everyone says the driving test people have too? He's entitled to appeal the NCT test if he feels the test wasnt don eright, did he do that?

Getting back to VRT , have you the links to the laws where it states specifically that what we have is illegal? Whats about the other countries that have VRt, how come they arent stopped from doing it either?

boycee09 · 05-02-2008 11:38pm

You all seem to be set on what you believe...do you work for Customs then? Surely something that saves you money is worth looking into before you just decide that its rubbish. Things are not just black and white. If the Government are so honest and trustworthy, how did they rip off the most vunerable people in the state (the elderly in nursing homes) and are now paying it back..
Enough said on this. Its only people who have a problem with VRT or NCT that are interested in the association. If people don't have an issue and need advice and help, then they're not interested. If you read the information on the irishdriversassociation.org website and are still not convinced then thats fine-thats your choice but at least have a look at it.

Guy:Incognito · 05-02-2008 11:40pm

boycee09 wrote: »

You all seem to be set on what you believe...do you work for Customs then? Surely something that saves you money is worth looking into before you just decide that its rubbish. Things are not just black and white. If the Government are so honest and trustworthy, how did they rip off the most vunerable people in the state (the elderly in nursing homes) and are now paying it back..
Enough said on this. Its only people who have a problem with VRT or NCT that are interested in the association. If people don't have an issue and need advice and help, then they're not interested. If you read the information on the irishdriversassociation.org website and are still not convinced then thats fine-thats your choice but at least have a look at it.

Enough said my ass, you came on ranting and havent proved any of it.

I'll set up a site that says being black is illegal and write it on th eside of my van if you like, wont make it true.

and again, why has some rich lawyer or some rich persons (who had their cart impounded) lawter not take th eeasy victory and bring the government to court on this. Surely the advertising for the lawyer alone would be worth the trip to court.

boycee09 · 05-02-2008 11:43pm

Not only does he believe that they are failing people to meet quotas but he no longer does an NCT on his car or any of his families cars. You do not need an NCT on your car. The law states that you need a Certificate of Roadworthiness which he optains every few months from a local garage. He doesn't test his car every two years but he gets a service done every few months and gets a new certificate everytime. If you need any proof of it contact the chairman and he'll send you out copies. They even had a ex-staff member from the NCT centre who gave his story to the paper on failures.

boycee09 · 05-02-2008 11:50pm

do you think some rich lawyer or rich person would be the least bit affected by VRT. They wouldn't buy cars from the North anyway cuz they could afford to purchase new cars in Rip off Republic. I am a member of the association NOT THE CHAIRMAN OR BARRISTER. I don't have the terminology they have.you wouldn't understand it anyway. Lets face it, if you can't listen in plain english you wouldn't have a chance of fighting this out with either of them. I have been posting this information to help anyone else who has a european registered car who was hoping to find out more information on VRT and there is another side to it. I don't need to argue with you anymore. I've said what I wanted to say and advise anyone who would like to find out more to look at the irishdriversassociation.org website and let them make up there own minds after that.

Seth Brundle · 06-02-2008 12:05am

boycee09 wrote: »

Not only does he believe that they are failing people to meet quotas but he no longer does an NCT on his car or any of his families cars. You do not need an NCT on your car. The law states that you need a Certificate of Roadworthiness which he optains every few months from a local garage. He doesn't test his car every two years but he gets a service done every few months and gets a new certificate everytime. If you need any proof of it contact the chairman and he'll send you out copies. They even had a ex-staff member from the NCT centre who gave his story to the paper on failures.

Will you send some of the info to Judge Terence Finn down in Cork before he is due in court? It might save is ass!
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0118/finnt.html?rss

boycee09 wrote: »

do you think some rich lawyer or rich person would be the least bit affected by VRT. They wouldn't buy cars from the North anyway cuz they could afford to purchase new cars in Rip off Republic. I am a member of the association NOT THE CHAIRMAN OR BARRISTER. I don't have the terminology they have.you wouldn't understand it anyway. Lets face it, if you can't listen in plain english you wouldn't have a chance of fighting this out with either of them. I have been posting this information to help anyone else who has a european registered car who was hoping to find out more information on VRT and there is another side to it. I don't need to argue with you anymore. I've said what I wanted to say and advise anyone who would like to find out more to look at the irishdriversassociation.org website and let them make up there own minds after that.

1. are you a committee member of this organisation?
2. is the barrister a voluntary member or are they paid to be there?
3. who is the barrister?
4. is the organisation aware that you are promoting it?

No offence intended but your arguments and subsequent defences seem weak and not enough to make me want to bother looking at the website!

Guy:Incognito · 06-02-2008 12:06am

boycee09 wrote: »

do you think some rich lawyer or rich person would be the least bit affected by VRT. .

So who 's buying all the high end Bentley's etc that were impounded in well publiciesed stings over the last couple of years? You think they have been bought on finance by plumbers and shop workers?

As for your "wouldnt understand" comments, I dare sat I probably would, whats your basis for that stupid comment?

Seeing as you ignored my question and brought up the tired old "Rip off Republic" statement. What of all the other countries that have VRt and moreso the ones that have higher levels of VRt and where cars cost more than here in "rip off republic". Do you mean to teall me that off all these millions of people, not one has the money and/or inclanation to take this easy , winnable case to court?

boycee09 · 06-02-2008 12:08am

Unlike you I dont have all the answers. I'm simply passing on a message to people who are interested.

unkel · 06-02-2008 12:12am

vibe666 wrote: »

what about someone with a UK licence driving a UK regged car with a house here and in the UK?

Surely you are entitled to drive your car wherever you want? or do customs expect you to pay a couple of grand to re-register your car every time you get off the ferry?

It's simple, vibe666. It doesn't matter how many properties you own in what country. It doesn't matter what country it states on your driving license. It doesn't even matter what nationality you are.

The only thing that matters is where you live for most of the year. If you live in Ireland (in legal terms: if you are a resident in Ireland) you will have to pay VRT when importing a car

Unless you qualify for one of the exemptions, e.g. if you used to live in the UK you can bring in the car you can prove you have owned over there for more than 6 months and you won't have to pay VRT

Guy:Incognito · 06-02-2008 12:12am

boycee09 wrote: »

Unlike you I dont have all the answers. I'm simply passing on a message to people who are interested.

SOME answeres will do. If nothng else then to the points in my last post.

E92 · 06-02-2008 12:14am

Is VRT was illegal then the EU would have gotten rid of it for us by now. The EU have tried to get the Irish Government to get rid of it for us, but short of Ireland losing it's veto on tax policy in the EU(which will just never happen), VRT is here to stay I'm afraid.

And ask any Danish or Portuguese person, they also pay huge sums in VRT(especially the Danes).

If the EU tried to harmonise tax rates VRT would have to go, but then again we would have to have a much higher Corporation tax rate, and this country would be back in the bad old days before you know it.

boycee09 · 06-02-2008 12:19am

If you're interested in this issue, take 5 minutes to look at the website. I am a member of the association and I am already involved with fighting the VRT on my own car. Thats why I am so involved in this issue. I don't mean to come across as a know it all-I don't know it all. I know what the organisation is about and what i'm fighting but I don't have the knowledge the committee members have. All the work done by the committee members is voluntary. There is no payment out of it, hence the reason it is so difficult to get people involved. Nobody gets paid. Their slogan is 'giving irish drivers a voice'. The association are pleading with members to spread the word about the association and to get people to have a look at the website and join. Its not all about VRT. Its about ALL issues that affect drivers. I have just been stressing VRT as thats what this topic was about. I'm not sure if you know about a law degree but as far as I know, when you complete your college degree you then have to do a placement with a solicitor to become a recognised barrister. This secretary has completed the degree but has not yet completed his placement. He knows the law inside out and is dedicated to this association, voluntarily. He has been in court a number of times with the NCT and Road tax issues and is now exempt from doing his NCT. I don't know the in's and out's of his cases but contact the association and they'll tell you all.

Seth Brundle · 06-02-2008 12:21am

Too many of the larger EU countries are opposed to tax harmonisation so I can't see it happening for quite some time yet!

boycee09 · 06-02-2008 12:25am

maybe not but is it not worth even looking at the website?

Seth Brundle · 06-02-2008 12:26am

boycee09 wrote: »

If you're interested in this issue, take 5 minutes to look at the website.

Why? If its the same as your post content, then I'll give it a miss. Thanks!

boycee09 wrote: »

I am a member of the association and I am already involved with fighting the VRT on my own car.

How? WHat has happened and where do things currently stand?

boycee09 wrote: »

I'm not sure if you know about a law degree but as far as I know, when you complete your college degree you then have to do a placement with a solicitor to become a recognised barrister. This secretary has completed the degree but has not yet completed his placement. He knows the law inside out and is dedicated to this association, voluntarily. He has been in court a number of times with the NCT and Road tax issues and is now exempt from doing his NCT. I don't know the in's and out's of his cases but contact the association and they'll tell you all.

So he is not a barrister!
Anyhow, can you get me info on how he managed to become exempt from the NCT? I would like to know this.

boycee09 · 06-02-2008 12:30am

well if your not willing to look at the website then I can't do anymore.thats your choice. Why is it that all the negative comments have been posted here but anyone with anything supportive and positive to say has just been sending private messages...
Well as long as it got through to those of you who pm'd me, it was worth it

Guy:Incognito · 06-02-2008 12:33am

Boycee you keep saying you dont know the details yet you feel confident enough to make statements.

boycee09 wrote: »

do you think some rich lawyer or rich person would be the least bit affected by VRT. They wouldn't buy cars from the North anyway cuz they could afford to purchase new cars in Rip off Republic. .

Yet when I ask you questions on it you magically reply to bits and posts either side of what I ask but either miss or ignore it.

Stekelly wrote: »

So who 's buying all the high end Bentley's etc that were impounded in well publiciesed stings over the last couple of years? You think they have been bought on finance by plumbers and shop workers?

Seeing as you ignored my question and brought up the tired old "Rip off Republic" statement. What of all the other countries that have VRt and moreso the ones that have higher levels of VRt and where cars cost more than here in "rip off republic". Do you mean to teall me that off all these millions of people, not one has the money and/or inclanation to take this easy , winnable case to court?

boycee09 · 06-02-2008 12:42am

i said already I am just a member of this association trying to make people aware of their existance. Im only a young lad who doesn't know all the law but i am passing on a message about the association. You can take it or leave it.
Go ask all your technical questions to the chairman of the association and you wont be long getting your answers.

This is an example of a case. (from RTE News Archive)
The European Court of Justice has ruled that aspects of vehicle registration tax constitute a form of double taxation and are therefore illegal under the EU treaty.
The ruling came after a Finnish citizen took a case against his own government.
He claimed that by levying vehicle registration tax on a used car he had imported into Finland, the government was taxing the same product twice, because the tax ignored the value of the tax already paid on the car in another member state.
Advertisement
The court ruled that the VRT law in Finland conflicts with the EU treaty, and is illegal. The ruling may affect the operation of VRT in Ireland, which also charges high rates of VRT.
The European Commission two weeks ago called for the abolition of vehicle registration tax.
The Commission said in the interim, states should ensure that their VRT systems did not discriminate by imposing a double taxation burden on motorists importing second hand cars from other member states.

Car impounded for VRT...

Comments