What's the point of this forum?

kelly1

Zillah wrote: »

I just love being right. So much:

Your gloating and arrogance is very, very ugly. It's wrong of you to presume that all believers have had a hard time of it. You are the kind of atheist that I find hard to stomach.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

he was right though...

Zillah

kelly1 wrote: »

Your gloating and arrogance is very, very ugly. It's wrong of you to presume that all believers have had a hard time of it. You are the kind of atheist that I find hard to stomach.

I didn't say that all believers had had a hard time of it. I said that most converts had had a hard time of it. Which lends another delicious layer to the meme-infection theory.


And to reciprocate, you are the kind of theist I find hard to stomach. Though I find the majority hard to stomach so you're nothing special.

Scofflaw

kelly1 wrote:

Alright, alright! Thanks Scofflaw. I think the word I was looking for was in fact "placebo"

OK, but you appreciate I can only give you the 5 bonus points?

Dades wrote: »

It's interesting that someone starts a thread asking is what the purpose of this forum, and people are still posting responses in the wee hours of the morning*. Good, though.

Maybe we need something else in our lives. Mass tomorrow, anyone?

* apart from Asiaprod who's just finished his morning yoga!

Well, I'm just getting over a bug (small children - so bad for the immune system*), so my sleep patterns are shot.

A quick point while I'm passing, though. If Christianity had never existed, there would still be an A&A forum, but there wouldn't, of course, be a Christianity forum.

cordially,
Scofflaw

* yes, yes, I'm trying to cut down, but the secular future won't create itself, you know

PDN

Scofflaw wrote: »

A quick point while I'm passing, though. If Christianity had never existed, there would still be an A&A forum, but there wouldn't, of course, be a Christianity forum.]

I doubt if there would be an A&A forum. The freedom to express atheistic ideas, or indeed any dissent from the norm, appears to be enjoyed most freely in cultures that have been exposed to a history of Christian values such as rationality, tolerance, respect for the individual etc.

If Christianity had never existed then it is entirely possible that atheists would be suppressed as they were in most pre-Christian cultures, and indeed still are in cultures that have no tradition of Christian values (eg Iran).

Also, since most of the formative science of the last 2000 years was carried out by Christians, and specifically driven by their beliefs in respect to rationality and an ordered universe, it is doubtful whether the internet would exist to host the A&A forum.

Finally, since I mentioned atheists and Iran in the same breath, here is a little story from an Iranian blog:

One day there is a mass execution in the public forum:

The first person they bring out to hang is a Jewish woman who is accused of being “an unbalanced, vulgar, old Zionist spy”. They put the noose around her neck and rope her up to a crane, and then they ask her if she wants to say anything before her execution. She says yes, “We are all children of the same God, Allah, Lord, Earth, and DNA. I want to bring peace and prosperity to all mankind, and I’ll give my life to my cause in the name of Moses and the Ten Commandments.” The executioner orders the crane operator to pull her up, but no matter how hard they try they cannot lift her off the ground (disclaimer: this has nothing to do with her weight). So, they say maybe Moses has interfered on her behalf and is trying to save her life. So, they let her go.

The next person they bring out for execution is a liberal Moslem. Her accusation is that she is “ignorant, superstitious, and rebellious”. So once again, after they set her up the executioner asks her if she has a final word to say. She says yes, “I want everyone to know that I am an educated woman with an independent mind, and that I have empowered myself not to be subjugated by men. That I chose Islam to fulfill my own spiritual needs, that I am not a political person, and this religion is chosen by me for me, and not by others for me…” The executioner interrupts her and says, well that doesn’t matter to us anymore because we are going to hang you anyway. So she shouts in the name of Allah, Prophet Mohammad, and Ali Amir Al-Momenin I give my life to my cause. The executioner orders the crane operator to pull her up, but once again no matter how hard they try they cannot pull her up (she only weighs 135 lbs, I believe). They say maybe Allah, Prophet Mohammad, or Ali Amir-Al Momenin has interfered on her behalf and has forgiven her for not wearing a proper veil in the public and for her other faults. So, they let her go.

The next person they bring out for execution is an atheist who is accused of being a denouncer of the God, Allah, and the Lord. After they put the noose around his neck they ask him if he has any last words to say. He says yes, yes, yes in the name of scientific knowledge and understanding I want to tell you stupid superstitious people that your crane would work just fine if you fix the damn leak in the hydraulic hose.

homah_7ft

PDN wrote: »

Also, since most of the formative science of the last 2000 years was carried out by Christians, and specifically driven by their beliefs in respect to rationality and an ordered universe, it is doubtful whether the internet would exist to host the A&A forum.

Did you mean to write 2,000 years? Islam was home to the scientific innovators of the middle ages. Ever wonder where the terms algebra and algorithm might come from? I'm not going into the Indian subcontinents contibution since I am probably OT already. I would go as far as to say christians were the minority participants of science over the last 2,000 years.

Zillah

PDN wrote: »

If Christianity had never existed then it is entirely possible that atheists would be suppressed as they were in most pre-Christian cultures, and indeed still are in cultures that have no tradition of Christian values (eg Iran).

You...can't...be serious...


The United States, that great bastion of Christian belief, is the most anti-Atheist nation in the Western World. The very fact that you'd stoop to a comparison with hell holes like Iran says a lot.

PDN

Zillah wrote: »

The United States, that great bastion of Christian belief, is the most anti-Atheist nation in the Western World. The very fact that you'd stoop to a comparison with hell holes like Iran says a lot.

Get real. Atheists have the right in the US to freely proclaim and spread their views. Atheist books feature on the best seller lists and a small but significant proportion of the population are atheists. The fact that a large proportion of the US population are unconvinced by all the noise atheism makes does not equate to restricting atheists' freedom.

In Ancient Persia you would have been impaled on a stake through your ass for being an atheist. Slightly worse, I would imagine, than being forced to listen to a chaplain if you're stupid enough to join the US military.

Asiaprod

Yoga is done.

PDN wrote: »

In Ancient Persia you would have been impaled on a stake through your ass for being an atheist. Slightly worse, I would imagine, than being forced to listen to a chaplain if you're stupid enough to join the US military.

That made my day:)
Your sermons must be amazing things to behold:)

Zillah

PDN wrote: »

Get real. Atheists have the right in the US to freely proclaim and spread their views. Atheist books feature on the best seller lists and a small but significant proportion of the population are atheists. The fact that a large proportion of the US population are unconvinced by all the noise atheism makes does not equate to restricting atheists' freedom.

And Atheists still form clubs where they can gather together and speak secretly for fear of being made a social pariah if their neighbours and coworkers found out. Polls have shown that atheists are amongst the most hated members of society in the US, more so than homosexuals or Muslims. Polls have also shown that the majority of Americans would not consider voting for a politician if they were an atheist, regardless of any other factors.

In Ancient Persia you would have been impaled on a stake through your ass for being an atheist.

Interesting that you choose the stake up the ass reference, given that a sharp cone up the ass/vagina was a favourite of the inquisiton.

The growth in tolerance for other views has come from secular liberalism, and its fought Christianity most of the way.

Asiaprod

Zillah wrote: »

Interesting that you choose the stake up the ass reference, given that a sharp cone up the ass/vagina was a favourite of the inquisiton.

Why reinvent the wheel? Keep it on topic please.

Scofflaw

PDN wrote: »

I doubt if there would be an A&A forum. The freedom to express atheistic ideas, or indeed any dissent from the norm, appears to be enjoyed most freely in cultures that have been exposed to a history of Christian values such as rationality, tolerance, respect for the individual etc.

If Christianity had never existed then it is entirely possible that atheists would be suppressed as they were in most pre-Christian cultures, and indeed still are in cultures that have no tradition of Christian values (eg Iran).

Also, since most of the formative science of the last 2000 years was carried out by Christians, and specifically driven by their beliefs in respect to rationality and an ordered universe, it is doubtful whether the internet would exist to host the A&A forum.

A very Christian conceit - and one so large, and impossible of proof, as to be not worth arguing. As a counter-claim I'll posit, equally largely, and equally unprovably, that the natural development of Roman paganism, uninterrupted by Christianity, would have been better for rationality.

Since science dates back only a few hundred years, and coincides with the rediscovery to a wide audience of Graeco-Roman thought, on which it built, I think my claim has the greater force, particularly since the forefathers of science self-consciously saw themselves as inheritors of that tradition, in counterpoint to Christianity's scholasticism.

Those elements of Christianity which do promote rationality can likewise be traced to the intellectual development of Christianity under the pressure of neo-Platonism in the late Western Roman Empire - without such a challenger, it would have remained what it is at core, an oriental mystery religion.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Dades

estebancambias wrote: »

Troll. Yes the moderator of their own forum can be a troll.

Indeed.

estebancambias

Atheism does not kill?
Quote:
The Orthodox Christian Church of Russia was the primary target of the Soviet government (whose leaders during Lenin's days were in their majority Jews who suffered under the Tsarist regime). Early legislation banned all influences of the church on education and public life. During the Civil War hundreds of thousands of clergymen were murdered. Despite repeated attempts by church leaders to prove their loyalty to the state, churches were closed in the thousands, their assets were seized, and clergy and the faithful were violently persecuted. By 1933, only a hundred churches in Moscow were operational (compared to 600 in 1917), and by 1939 around 98% of all churches in Russia were confescated, destroyed or closed. Following the 1941 invasion of the Soviet Union by Germany, and Hitler's attempt to win over Christians in Ukraine and Russia, Stalin relaxed active persecution of the Russian Orthodox Church until the end of World War II. Active persecution continued under Khrushchev and until the fall of Communism in the 1990s. It is estimated that 40 million Orthodox Christians perished under Lenin and Stalin.

Now I have no doubt that perhaps the figures are exaggerated, but the point remains that you cannot kid yourself that a world without religion would be safer.
Religion is not the cause of evil, power, territory and money will cause conflict.

Who is to say if your dream of an end to religion came to being, that the Religous minority would not suffer at the hands of an Atheist controlled society.

I really do think if you believe the world would be a better place without Religion you are kidding yourself.

homah_7ft

estebancambias wrote: »

Who is to say if your dream of an end to religion came to being, that the Religous minority would not suffer at the hands of an Atheist controlled society.

I didn't think being an atheist meant that you had to want everyone to give up religion. I don't think anyone is arguing atheists don't kill.

Schuhart

homah_7ft wrote: »

Islam was home to the scientific innovators of the middle ages.

And, in fairness, then seemed to lose it completely. And, tbh, the real innovators in that culture seemed to come up against a wall of oppression too. I'm not saying its necessarily Christianity to be credited, but heretics and their ilk seemed to persist and ultimately win out in Europe.

Scofflaw wrote: »

A very Christian conceit - and one so large, and impossible of proof, as to be not worth arguing. As a counter-claim I'll posit, equally largely, and equally unprovably, that the natural development of Roman paganism, uninterrupted by Christianity, would have been better for rationality.

Although presumably we'd have to recall that Plato advocated a death penalty for unrepentant atheists.

I think we just have to face it. Atheism is about as welcome as a letter from the Revenue Commissioners about your bogus non-resident bank account.

estebancambias

Atheists DONT kill, but neither do Christians.
When I say this I mean their beliefs don't kill.

From a Christian perspective.

''I will kill this man in the name of Homerjay''

Should this tarnish your reputation? Should you be held responsible for my acts?

Fallen Seraph

estebancambias wrote: »

Atheists DONT kill, but neither do Christians.
When I say this I mean their beliefs don't kill.

From a Christian perspective.

''I will kill this man in the name of Homerjay''

Should this tarnish your reputation? Should you be held responsible for my acts?

If Homerjay has said things that could be interpreted as inciting you to kill the man, then yes. It should tarnish his reputation.

Wreck

estebancambias wrote: »

They were school shooters. My point was that they were Atheists, Now Atheism is not the reason they killed these people, but no more than Religion kills people. Both are as stupid as the other.

Now thats not really fair. None of those shooters killed in the name of atheism (as far as I am aware). Quite a lot of people have killed and continue to kill in the name of religion.

Scofflaw

Schuhart wrote: »

And, in fairness, then seemed to lose it completely. And, tbh, the real innovators in that culture seemed to come up against a wall of oppression too. I'm not saying its necessarily Christianity to be credited, but heretics and their ilk seemed to persist and ultimately win out in Europe.Although presumably we'd have to recall that Plato advocated a death penalty for unrepentant atheists.

We would, of course, bear that in mind - although we might also bear in mind that Plato was 2400 years ago, and matters might have moved on a little, even as they have for Christianity, which advocated (and got) similar treatment for atheists.

Schuhart wrote: »

I think we just have to face it. Atheism is about as welcome as a letter from the Revenue Commissioners about your bogus non-resident bank account.

Well, the great problem is that you're everybody's unbeliever, and nobody's believer.

cordially,
Scofflaw

condra

estebancambias wrote: »

I really do think if you believe the world would be a better place without Religion you are kidding yourself.

Religion causes oppression, war and bigotry aswell as stifling the progress of science for the good of humankind. A world where religion doesnt wield such power as it does today would be a better place.

That is my opinion.

Zillah

Asiaprod wrote: »

Why reinvent the wheel? Keep it on topic please.

Is it absolutely 100% on topic!! He was arguing that Christian understanding and forgiveness was the source of modern tolerance for Atheism. He cited how non-Christian cultures treated Atheists in the distant past. I was pointing out that Christianity itself was guilty of just such ill treatment.

SubjectSean

womoma wrote: »

Religion causes oppression, war and bigotry aswell as stifling the progress of science for the good of humankind.

I think maybe you don't see us womoma. Humans would do all of these things even if they had no religion. You can't blame human stupidity on our innate tendency to religion as our stupidity pre-dates any holy books. Sadly there have been warlike oppressive bigots amongst us lining their pockets and stifling access to knowledge from the time we took up farming.

It's all about property. This is the very cause of all the things you blame on religion. It is ironic that John the Baptist and Jesus came along saying let's have no property, if you want to follow us give everything away and don't be violent. This line was actually doing damage to the Romans, warlike opressive bigots of the time, in that it shrank their markets and deprived them of spear fodder for their armies. For the first 300 years the followers of Jesus were economically useless pacifists with over 40 different gospels between them and a wide variety of beliefs.

I think perhaps the reason you see the religion as oppressive is because as soon as "Christianity" became a threat along came Roman Emporer Constantine, man in charge of the warlike opressive bigots; and he ate up the Christian religion and crapped it out as an oppressive religion. But I think when you look at what the what the religion was in its infancy it was actually beginning to function as a solution to the whole war-opression-bigotry thing. I think it is interesting that the last time in history humanity was free of these negative attributes was when we were in societies that had no personal posessions or property.

Scofflaw

SubjectSean wrote: »

I think maybe you don't see us womoma. Humans would do all of these things even if they had no religion. You can't blame human stupidity on our innate tendency to religion as our stupidity pre-dates any holy books. Sadly there have been warlike oppressive bigots amongst us lining their pockets and stifling access to knowledge from the time we took up farming.

Indeed - but for an atheist, all of the good things come out of the same bag.

SubjectSean wrote: »

It's all about property. This is the very cause of all the things you blame on religion. It is ironic that John the Baptist and Jesus came along saying let's have no property, if you want to follow us give everything away and don't be violent. This line was actually doing damage to the Romans, warlike opressive bigots of the time, in that it shrank their markets and deprived them of spear fodder for their armies. For the first 300 years the followers of Jesus were economically useless pacifists with over 40 different gospels between them and a wide variety of beliefs.

I think perhaps the reason you see the religion as oppressive is because as soon as "Christianity" became a threat along came Roman Emporer Constantine, man in charge of the warlike opressive bigots; and he ate up the Christian religion and crapped it out as an oppressive religion. But I think when you look at what the what the religion was in its infancy it was actually beginning to function as a solution to the whole war-opression-bigotry thing. I think it is interesting that the last time in history humanity was free of these negative attributes was when we were in societies that had no personal posessions or property.

Interesting, if slightly mythic, take on history.

cordially,
Scofflaw

condra

SubjectSean wrote: »

I think perhaps the reason you see the religion as oppressive is because as soon as "Christianity" became a threat along came Roman Emporer Constantine, man in charge of the warlike opressive bigots; and he ate up the Christian religion and crapped it out as an oppressive religion.

No.

I was talking about religious writings, tendencies, and practices which violate human rights such as those of women and children, or promote and perpetuate sexism or sectarianism.

It's all about property. This is the very cause of all the things you blame on religion.

No. It is not all about property.

Dades

Just discovered there is a Non-Drinkers forum on Boards... Finally we are not the only forum whose existence is based on the absence of something from our lives!

I wonder do they get threads asking them questions like: why is this forum here? So you don't drink - why does that warrant a forum? Does is make you feel smug that don't drink and people around you are falling over drunk?

5uspect

Dades wrote: »

Just discovered there is a Non-Drinkers forum on Boards... Finally we are not the only forum whose existence is based on the absence of something from our lives!

I wonder do they get threads asking them questions like: why is this forum here? So you don't drink - why does that warrant a forum? Does is make you feel smug that don't drink and people around you are falling over drunk?

Looks like a great forum too!

CerebralCortex

Dades wrote: »

Just discovered there is a Non-Drinkers forum on Boards... Finally we are not the only forum whose existence is based on the absence of something from our lives!

I wonder do they get threads asking them questions like: why is this forum here? So you don't drink - why does that warrant a forum? Does is make you feel smug that don't drink and people around you are falling over drunk?

Post of the thread methinks.

estebancambias

Best forum ever.

Zillah

Dades wrote: »

Just discovered there is a Non-Drinkers forum on Boards...

And ye shall not deny the blessed liquor, that would be abomination.