What's the point of this forum?

Beruthiel

kelly1 wrote: »

I despise atheism

I have no great love for the religions of this planet.

We were all created by God for God

In your opinion. Which you took on board without any proof whatsoever.
I prefer to go with Darwins theory.

atheism rejects the ultimate purpose of existence

The ultimate purpose of existance is to continue the species. To think there is anything else, is to clutch at straws.

The atheist rejects the love of God and there is no person is the wide world that hasn't been touched by grace. The rejection of this grace is truly evil.

lol is the only respose I can come up with there.

kelly1

Beruthiel wrote: »

In your opinion. Which you took on board without any proof whatsoever. I prefer to go with Darwins theory.

I don't reject evolution. I believe that God creates a soul in each on of us at the point of conception. Obviously the body is created through natural processes.

Beruthiel wrote: »

The ultimate purpose of existance is to continue the species. To think there is anything else, is to clutch at straws.

So we're no better than animals? I don't accept that for a second.

Dades

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm sure that if dig down you'll find that you felt called by God and you said NO. Thanks very much God but I'm far more interested in things that I can touch and see. So be it.

And I'm sure that nobody who fits your Gods description has offered me anything. Ever. What I have is by the good 'grace' of my parents, and other humans who have seen fit to help me in life.

IF I believed for a moment God existed, I'd want to know if why He is supposedly offering me grace, yet handing out hunger, pestilence and pain to half the planet.

kelly1

5uspect wrote: »

Noel, I have rejected the idea of all gods, fairys, pixies, cosmic designers, orbital teapots and pink unicorns simply because none of them are supported by any evidence.
You seem to think that the truth of your particular god is so obvious that its staring us in the face and that simply isn't the case.

There's heaps of evidence, you just haven't looked.

I've give you one small example that shows that the supernatural does exist.

One evening my dad was driving me and my brother home and there was some program on the radio of a spiritual nature and my dad who (at the time) never spoke about spiritual matters, didn't go to Mass etc told us a very interesting story about his childhood.

He told us, to our amazement, that when he was young (about age 8), that his spirit was able to leave his body at will. Typically it would happen when he was out playing hide-and-go-seek in the fields. He told us that his spirit was able to leave his body and fly around the fields at the speed of a helicopter and he was able to discover where the other children were hiding. When he wanted to return to his body he could do so in an instant. As he grew older, he lost this ability.

And my dad isn't one to bullsh*t.

kelly1

Dades wrote: »

IF I believed for a moment God existed, I'd want to know if why He is supposedly offering me grace, yet handing out hunger, pestilence and pain to half the planet.

There seems to be a common impression among atheists that God is vengeful, cruel, uncaring etc. If this is so it would cerainly explain a lot. Could it be that atheists just have the wrong impression of what God actually is?

I'd like to ask all atheists here what kind of impression of God have you grown up with? An uncaring, impersonal God or an incredibly loving, kind, merciful Father?

One Cold Hand

kelly1 wrote: »

There's heaps of evidence, you just haven't looked.

I've give you one small example that shows that the supernatural does exist.

One evening my dad was driving me and my brother home and there was some program on the radio of a spiritual nature and my dad who (at the time) never spoke about spiritual matters, didn't go to Mass etc told us a very interesting story about his childhood.

He told us, to our amazement, that when he was young (about age 8), that his spirit was able to leave his body at will. Typically it would happen when he was out playing hide-and-go-seek in the fields. He told us that his spirit was able to leave his body and fly around the fields at the speed of a helicopter and he was able to discover where the other children were hiding. When he wanted to return to his body he could do so in an instant. As he grew older, he lost this ability.

And my dad isn't one to bullsh*t.

Ah well then it MUST be true! Now I believe!

Look, we are better than the animals. We are more intelligent and are capable of emotions etc. But we aren't here for a higher purpose. When we die, thats it, show over. There's no afterlife (in my opinion!) and our spirit won't head off to heaven or hell. As Berithiel said, your grasping at straws if you believe otherwise.

One Cold Hand

kelly1 wrote: »

There seems to be a common impression among atheists that God is vengeful, cruel, uncaring etc. If this is so it would cerainly explain a lot. Could it be that atheists just have the wrong impression of what God actually is?

I'd like to ask all atheists here what kind of impression of God have you grown up with? An uncaring, impersonal God or an incredibly loving, kind, merciful Father?

Personally I don't have any impression of god. I don't acknowledge that any god exist. It's not that I have the wrong impression of him. You said earlier that Atheists have rejected god. I haven't rejected god, I've rejected the idea of a god. There a difference that you don't seem to get.

5uspect

kelly1 wrote: »

There's heaps of evidence, you just haven't looked.

I've give you one small example that shows that the supernatural does exist.

One evening my dad was driving me and my brother home and there was some program on the radio of a spiritual nature and my dad who (at the time) never spoke about spiritual matters, didn't go to Mass etc told us a very interesting story about his childhood.

He told us, to our amazement, that when he was young (about age 8), that his spirit was able to leave his body at will. Typically it would happen when he was out playing hide-and-go-seek in the fields. He told us that his spirit was able to leave his body and fly around the fields at the speed of a helicopter and he was able to discover where the other children were hiding. When he wanted to return to his body he could do so in an instant. As he grew older, he lost this ability.

And my dad isn't one to bullsh*t.

erm... okay... I've had dreams like that, as I'd imagine many have.
Is this the same father responsible for your broken home? (Very presumptuous I know)
How accurate do you think his memory is of his childhood? How accurate is yours? Memory is extraordinarily fallible. But lets assume that your father is being genuine. Why would your god grant him this ability? Did he loose it because he's no longer spiritual? Do other Christians have similar superpowers?

Dades

kelly1 wrote: »

There seems to be a common impression among atheists that God is vengeful, cruel, uncaring etc. If this is so it would cerainly explain a lot. Could it be that atheists just have the wrong impression of what God actually is?

Nothing a quick skim through the OT wouldn't clear up!

kelly1 wrote: »

I'd like to ask all atheists here what kind of impression of God have you grown up with? An uncaring, impersonal God or an incredibly loving, kind, merciful Father?

I grew up with incredibly loving, kind, merciful father - but one with a lowercase 'f' - and it is him who deserves thanks for providing for all his children.

kelly1

One Cold Hand wrote: »

Ah well then it MUST be true! Now I believe!

Could I ask why you reject the account I told you? Do you think my dad is a liar or completely mad? Is it a knee-jerk reaction to anything spititual?

5uspect

kelly1 wrote: »

I'd like to ask all atheists here what kind of impression of God have you grown up with? An uncaring, impersonal God or an incredibly loving, kind, merciful Father?

When growing up and going to school in Ireland I'd imagine I had the same image of God as most other kids. Big guy in the sky with a white beard. I never questioned theological issues (nor were they discussed). God was there like santa, he answered prayers and his son Jesus told nice stories about being good. He also had superpowers. The thing is I also enjoyed cartoons about superheros and as a young child I probably didn't separate fact from ficton terrible lucidly, nor would you expect a child to.

I only began to see the nonsense of god(s) in my teens. The while vengeful aspect of god comes across when started to read the bibles the gave us in school.

I'd suspect that one of the defining aspects of atheists here is an interest in science from a young age. Once you start reading science books you develop a skeptical mind.

(Is it just me of does this thread typify the point of this forum?)

pH

kelly1 wrote: »

There's heaps of evidence, you just haven't looked.

I've give you one small example that shows that the supernatural does exist.

<snip>

And my dad isn't one to bullsh*t.

So your evidence comes down to "your dad says so", now I suppose you're going to challenge us to say whether he's right, delusional or a liar.

IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE YOU'RE CALLING MY DAD A LIAR - YOU BASTARDS!

Well my dad told me the supernatural doesn't exist - and he's dead - so are you calling my dead dad a liar or mad? Are you? Are you?

[edit - too late you already have]

One Cold Hand

kelly1 wrote: »

Could I ask why you reject the account I told you? Do you think my dad is a liar or completely mad? Is it a knee-jerk reaction to anything spititual?

It's not a knee-jerk reaction, I reject it because I believe that it is physically impossible. I'm not calling him a liar, as it appears that he (and you and your brother) honsetly believe that this happened.

As for whether he's mad or not, well I reckon anyone who believes in gods and religion is a bit mad!

kelly1

One Cold Hand wrote: »

Personally I don't have any impression of god. I don't acknowledge that any god exist. It's not that I have the wrong impression of him. You said earlier that Atheists have rejected god. I haven't rejected god, I've rejected the idea of a god. There a difference that you don't seem to get.

Convenient, but that won't cut it on judgment day. Both amount to the same thing.

One Cold Hand

kelly1 wrote: »

Convenient, but that won't cut it on judgment day.

Meh, Ill worry about that if it happens!

kelly1

5uspect wrote: »

I only began to see the nonsense of god(s) in my teens.

Was this purely based on *your* own reasoning or were you influenced by peers who might have ridiculed the notion of God?

5uspect wrote: »

I'd suspect that one of the defining aspects of atheists here is an interest in science from a young age. Once you start reading science books you develop a skeptical mind.

Believe me, I've always been interested in science from a very young age. Ended up doing electronic engineering in college and I still like science. Mathematics was my favourite subject in school. Still I also had a leaning towards spiritual matters which lead me on a long search for the truth.

kelly1

One Cold Hand wrote: »

It's not a knee-jerk reaction, I reject it because I believe that it is physically impossible.

Of course, but not spiritually impossible.

Fallen Seraph

kelly1 wrote: »

Was this purely based on *your* own reasoning or were you influenced by peers who might have ridiculed the notion of God?

Theists seem to think that atheism is the trendy thing at the moment among kids...

As someone who has recently left secondary school I can definately say that this is bunk. As an atheist I was definately in the minority. By far in the minority.

Now most people weren't catholic or christian, per se, just some wishy-washy loving sky-god and a nice cup of tea when you die. But they certainly weren't atheists.

5uspect

kelly1 wrote: »

Believe me, I've always been interested in science from a very young age. Ended up doing electronic engineering in college and I still like science. Mathematics was my favourite subject in school. Still I also had a leaning towards spiritual matters which lead me on a long search for the truth.

I based that statement on personal ideas and it appears that it is not necessarily true. How do you separate the world between the spiritual and physical? How do you define spiritual?

kelly1 wrote: »

Of course, but not spiritually impossible.

Is anything spiritually impossible?

Scofflaw

kelly1 wrote: »

Could I ask why you reject the account I told you? Do you think my dad is a liar or completely mad? Is it a knee-jerk reaction to anything spititual?

The problem is that whether possible or not it's not evidence for God in any way. It might be taken as evidence (anecdotal) of psychic abilities, and it has a couple of psychological explanations (in the nicest sense) - but it says nothing whatsoever about the existence of God.

kelly1 wrote:

I'd like to ask all atheists here what kind of impression of God have you grown up with? An uncaring, impersonal God or an incredibly loving, kind, merciful Father?

Well, they told me about the latter, and then told me to read the Bible, because that was His Book, so I did. Turns out it contains the former (and worse - a jealous, wrathful tyrant), which everyone then insists is the latter. Big Emperor's New Clothes moment for a growing lad (about 8).

cordially,
Scofflaw

One Cold Hand

kelly1 wrote: »

Of course, but not spiritually impossible.

Yes, not spiritually impossible, if you choose to believe that type of thing.

kelly1

Fallen Seraph wrote: »

Now most people weren't catholic or christian, per se, just some wishy-washy loving sky-god and a nice cup of tea when you die. But they certainly weren't atheists.

That's not much better than atheism. From a Christian persepective, we need to have a relationship with Jesus before we can call ourselves Christian. Going through the motions doesn't really count. The practice of religion certainly isn't encouraged.

stevejazzx

kelly1 wrote: »

Could I ask why you reject the account I told you? Do you think my dad is a liar or completely mad? Is it a knee-jerk reaction to anything spititual?

OK..well let's suppose he isn't. Now we're left with 'did that event actualy happen to your father? You're sure it did and so is he - but your account of the story is essentially you're only evidence. That's fair enough, I believe you believe that.
However what we must look at now is the evidence to the contrary. In this case, considering it's spectacular claim (that father possessed an amazing ability to have his spirit leave body and then his spirit was able to send him information from remote locations as to the whereabouts and going ons of other people) we must take into consideration the number of proven paranormal claims to date. Unfortunately there are none. There are reports of events even more spectacular than yours but any which been tested have always turned out as being explainable by

a) some kind of phenonmena

for e.g the northern lights were once thought of as dancing spirits

b) scientific explanation for seemingly paranormal activity

Out of boy experiemces explained by sleep paralysis, when the brain is in the transition state between deep, dreaming sleep (known as REM sleep for its rapid eye movement) and waking up. During REM dreaming sleep, the brain has turned off most of the body's muscle function so we cannot act out our dreams - we are temporarily paralyzed,"Sometimes your brain doesn't fully switch off those dreams - or the paralysis - when you wake up," That would explain the 'frozen' feeling and hallucinations associated with sleep paralysis

c) other

ufo's explained by military aircraft etc

So the fact reamins that there is not, as of yet, even one proven example of the kind of paranormal activity you claim occured and this is quite a blow to your story as if it were true you would be sitting on the biggest scientific discovery in history of our planet. What do you think the chances of that are? Still sure that your dad has experienced something that no scientist, researcher or investigator has ever found?
Surely considering the countless reports of similar dream like activity from other people, the event you describe is more likley something half remebered and recounted than actually a real event? No? Don't you think it more likley that you're Dad had been reading a book or watching a movie and his subconscious created the rest?
To earnestly believe that without considering the other possible explanations is very similar to your belief in religon and explains quite a lot. You are addicted to wanting and needing to believe in the supernatural becasue you are afraid of life and the forces of life. You need a cushion on which to rest your fear and you chose fairytales and religon. That is my opinion anyway.

One Cold Hand

Scofflaw wrote: »

The problem is that whether possible or not it's not evidence for God in any way. It might be taken as evidence (anecdotal) of psychic abilities, and it has a couple of psychological explanations (in the nicest sense) - but it says nothing whatsoever about the existence of God.

In fairness, iirc, he offered it as evidence of the supernatural, not god specifically.

Scofflaw

One Cold Hand wrote: »

In fairness, iirc, he offered it as evidence of the supernatural, not god specifically.

You're quite right! I misread the post - but it did seem an obvious juncture for kelly1 to offer some proof of his god.

Post in haste, repent at leisure.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Overheal

kelly1 wrote: »

There's heaps of evidence, you just haven't looked.

I've give you one small example that shows that the supernatural does exist.

One evening my dad was driving me and my brother home and there was some program on the radio of a spiritual nature and my dad who (at the time) never spoke about spiritual matters, didn't go to Mass etc told us a very interesting story about his childhood.

He told us, to our amazement, that when he was young (about age 8), that his spirit was able to leave his body at will. Typically it would happen when he was out playing hide-and-go-seek in the fields. He told us that his spirit was able to leave his body and fly around the fields at the speed of a helicopter and he was able to discover where the other children were hiding. When he wanted to return to his body he could do so in an instant. As he grew older, he lost this ability.

And my dad isn't one to bullsh*t.

And your dad is what, 40? 50? When I was 4 I remember flying around my house in such a fasion - that doesnt mean it wasnt a dream. Flying dreams are brilliant....
Anyway I would argue that its possible he dreamt the entire encounter; given his knowledge of the area and his friends his mind could have easilly imagined the entire thing right down to the hiding spots.

Also: my Mom told me she saw a UFO once but that doesn't make it evidence of the existence of Aliens.

kelly1 wrote: »

I don't reject evolution. I believe that God creates a soul in each on of us at the point of conception. Obviously the body is created through natural processes.

So we're no better than animals? I don't accept that for a second.

Interesting take on it; now do me a favor and go slap that same sense into other Creationists that still think dinosoar bones and evolution are a test of faith.

I believe it to be mere sentience; so yes, we're no better than animals. Perhaps worse, by many opinions. The Wachowski Brothers had a nice take on us as being classified as a Virus.

5uspect

Overheal wrote: »

Flying dreams are brilliant....

Absolutely!

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

Convenient, but that won't cut it on judgment day. Both amount to the same thing.

According to modern day Christianity.

DublinWriter

kelly1 wrote: »

Convenient, but that won't cut it on judgment day. Both amount to the same thing.

Exactly. If you reject God's infinite love then he'll cast you down into a pit of fire to suffer for all eternity.

Is it just me, or does anyone else spot the irony?

kelly1

DublinWriter wrote: »

Exactly. If you reject God's infinite love then he'll cast you down into a pit of fire to suffer for all eternity.

Is it just me, or does anyone else spot the irony?

God's mercy ends when you die and His justice takes precedence.