Why I am sticking with Win XP

ethernet

nesf wrote: »

Windows is much more straightforward to install for a new person. The disks in the boxes of the stuff they just plugged in will almost definitely have the right drivers on them, which helps a lot for a complete new person.

I would actually commend Linux in this regard seeing as so many drivers are in the kernel for drive controllers and the like. There's nothing worse than having to load drivers manually during a Windows install. But I see your point, particularly from the viewpoint of the casual/'normal' user.

connor2007 wrote:

installing any linux distro is easy

getting simple things like mp3's to work is dificult

Your persistent Linux bashing across multiple foums is having a profound effect on me :rolleyes:

I have to dispute this. It's an absolute doddle in Ubuntu and Fedora 8 and no need to enter commands into a terminal to do so -- you try and play an mp3 file in these distros and they offer to download the appropriate codec. If you want a distro with all the proprietary codecs from Windows land then you'd be better off trying another distro, one that requires you to hand over your shiny pennies to get your hands on it, like Xandros.

ntlbell

BostonB wrote: »

I remember one distro where the laptops new onboard chipset wasn't supported officially after some trial and error I found a driver from an older chipset that worked enough to be usable. Same thing with a sound card. Not on the HCL and didn't need to write a new driver. Same thing often works on Windows. The OP and others have been talking more than just Wine. You've managed to get sexism, ageism, book clubs, Personal Issues and monkeys into it.

do you have a point of your own or are you still proving mine?
If you take time and effort things work.
have a read back through the thread....that's the whole point and if the OP had of put some effort in he would of also got his application to work or found an alternative way to get to his goal.

ding....dong...

You can't have a windows/linux discussion without monkey's :rolleyes:

conor2007

im not linux bashing

i still have it installed - its just so damn dificult to do simple tasks

BostonB

ntlbell wrote: »

do you have a point of your own or are you still proving mine?...

You wish. Mine is thinking outside of the box is often more productive than your dogma.

ntlbell

BostonB wrote: »

You wish. Mine is thinking outside of the box is often more productive than your dogma.

I'm surprised you ever get to have a look outside the box glued to monkey coding ASP/.NET all day.

But it explains your confusion in the thread.


My point: user should of put a bit of effort it to try and get his bit of software to run instead of bashing linux

Your point: you can if you look find a way to get software/hardware working.

Ok.

KAGY

BostonB wrote: »

Sometimes things simply don't work. Or are broken, or finding the solution will just take too much time than the result warrants.

Too true, esp if you are starting from base zero like the OP, some of us have other things in our lives besides the computer, I'm lucky if a get a few hours a week; my daughter is pulling at my arm as i type!

Like the OP I just wanted to dive right in (and who reads the manual before you start playing with your new toy)

I've been dual booting WinXP and Ubuntu since 6.10 and I still haven't got everything working to the stage where I can wipe the NT disk. (PowerCinema TV Card and IPAQ PDA, and I've have invested many hours googling and following walk throughs, installing different s/w etc, trying again after new releases....) and before anyone jumps in saying I should have checked compatibility lists first sometimes you are stuck with what you've got. I bought my rig before I was thinking of jumping over so compatibility wasn't an issue and the funds aren't available for new compatible cards

And regarding not changing and sticking with XP & why "lazy" people aren't welcome into the community all I can say is, the more users, the more likely manufacturers will start getting their act together and writing native drivers.
If it wasn't for the push for things to be easier for lazier people you'd still be on the command line (exclusively) with ACSII art for porn.
So welcome to the community pawwedrig, even if it's not from a very active participant. I'm glad to see that you have got some help from this thread, sometimes you do need help with the very basic concepts.

If this thread was renamed, why I'm sticking with Dual booting XP:

• I like the values behind the OS community
• Some of the open source s/w is better than windows apps
• some of the closed source s/w is more polished than Linux apps
• i've 15 years experience with windows and M/S, during which time the methods and shortcuts have been deeeeply ingrained
• It's time I went legal
• H/W compatibilty as mentioned above
• but mostly time I don't have

ntlbell

KAGY wrote: »

Too true, esp if you are starting from base zero like the OP, some of us have other things in our lives besides the computer, I'm lucky if a get a few hours a week; my daughter is pulling at my arm as i type!

That's not a problem, and if as has been stated numerous times now, if the OP worked out it was going to to take more time than it's worth and went back to XP or dual booted or whatever while he continued to research the issue ***THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM**

KAGY wrote: »

Like the OP I just wanted to dive right in (and who reads the manual before you start playing with your new toy)

this is also not a problem as long as you don't go blaming any problems on the OS and ignoring the fact is down to you not reading the manual

KAGY wrote: »

and before anyone jumps in saying I should have checked compatibility lists first sometimes you are stuck with what you've got. I bought my rig before I was thinking of jumping over so compatibility wasn't an issue and the funds aren't available for new compatible cards

Again this is fine, you've made attempts to get things working, you realise the reasons why, and you tried yourself to get things working

THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M STATING THE OP SHOULD OF DONE.

KAGY wrote: »

And regarding not changing and sticking with XP & why "lazy" people aren't welcome into the community all I can say is, the more users, the more likely manufacturers will start getting their act together and writing native drivers.

Getting more users is fine, getting people who just whine about doing something as simple as installing xmms to play mp3's as an earlier poster moaned about is not getting us anywhere.

BostonB

ntlbell wrote: »

I'm surprised you ever get to have a look outside the box glued to monkey coding ASP/.NET all day.

But it explains your confusion in the thread.


My point: user should of put a bit of effort it to try and get his bit of software to run instead of bashing linux

Your point: you can if you look find a way to get software/hardware working.

Ok.

Except I'm not a code monkey. So much for blindly reading. :rolleyes:

ntlbell

BostonB wrote: »

You're correct I'm talking through my jaxy and I realise now we're discussing the exact same point but also the part you're wrong on is I'm not a code monkey. So much for blindly reading. :rolleyes:

FYP

nesf

ntlbell wrote: »

Getting more users is fine, getting people who just whine about doing something as simple as installing xmms to play mp3's as an earlier poster moaned about is not getting us anywhere.

I'd disagree, the mainstream is where installing xmms is a big deal and your average person isn't inclined towards learning how to do things from the command prompt etc. Similar to how building your own machine will always remain a niche method of acquiring a new PC. Linux is broad in it's appeal and there's a world of difference between your average Slackware user and your average Ubuntu user but really complaining because some of the less technically inclined are daring to ask questions about how to run things in Linux is simple elitist crap. The days when Linux was exclusively for the geeks and freaks are gone tbh.

ntlbell

nesf wrote: »

I'd disagree, the mainstream is where installing xmms is a big deal and your average person isn't inclined towards learning how to do things from the command prompt etc. Similar to how building your own machine will always remain a niche method of acquiring a new PC. Linux is broad in it's appeal and there's a world of difference between your average Slackware user and your average Ubuntu user but really complaining because some of the less technically inclined are daring to ask questions about how to run things in Linux is simple elitist crap. The days when Linux was exclusively for the geeks and freaks are gone tbh.

Installing xmms in ubuntu is as easy if not easier than installing winamp in windows.

I fail to see how installing xmms is any bigger of a deal than than winamp.

I'm surprised at you actually, as I'm clearly not complaining about them asking questions, I'm complaining about them doing no research of their own first and asking specific questions about the problem, I'm complaining about people bashing linux because of their own laziness to do a small bit of reading on their own this is nothing to do with being elitist at all it's expecting a very small amount of work to be done before they ask the question.

The same goes for windows/osx/ learning chinese history the subject matter does not matter.

nesf

ntlbell wrote: »

I'm surprised at you actually, as I'm clearly not complaining about them asking questions, I'm complaining about them doing no research of their own first and asking specific questions about the problem, I'm complaining about people bashing linux because of their own laziness to do a small bit of reading on their own this is nothing to do with being elitist at all it's expecting a very small amount of work to be done before they ask the question.

These people bash Windows too. They expect it to be easier and to work "out of the box". The elitist part is that you "expect them to have done some work before bothering asking the question". It's just a longer form of RTFM tbh.

ntlbell

nesf wrote: »

These people bash Windows too. They expect it to be easier and to work "out of the box". The elitist part is that you "expect them to have done some work before bothering asking the question". It's just a longer form of RTFM tbh.

RTFM is fine, if they haven't opened the first page.

If they read it and don't understand a certain part of it then I hope they go and ask someone to help them help them understand that part before verbally bashing the product regardless of what it is be it a DVD player a TV or an OS.

Expecting people to not be lazy is not elitist.

AndrewMc

conor2007 wrote: »

mmm

pointless commands , honestly who wants to enter them in to do simple tasks

I'll usually give the written commands rather than the GUI equivalent as it's much, much quicker and more reliable to say “type this: ...” than “click on x, then y, then find option z and set it w, then find tab q and ....”.

BostonB

ntlbell wrote: »

I'm going to keep whining on about rtfm, or the HCL because I've no other point to make.

High brow stuff indeed.

ntlbell wrote: »

RTFM is fine, if they haven't opened the first page.

If they read it and don't understand a certain part of it then I hope they go and ask someone to help them help them understand that part before verbally bashing the product regardless of what it is be it a DVD player a TV or an OS.

Expecting people to not be lazy is not elitist.

Wanting an OS to be so intuitive that you don't need to read a manual, pour through forums isn't being lazy its having different expectations, requirements from an OS. Apple attracts users for this very reason. Most distro's are moving in that direction aswell. Vista is moving the opposite direction for some reason.

ntlbell

BostonB wrote: »

High brow stuff indeed.



Wanting an OS to be so intuitive that you don't need to read a manual, pour through forums isn't being lazy its having different expectations, requirements from an OS. Apple attracts users for this very reason. Most distro's are moving in that direction aswell. Vista is moving the opposite direction for some reason.

Ok, which gets to my point about choosing the OS that's right for you which was a few pages back and this case it's probably Apple.

So I'll ask again, are you going to keep agreeing with me? or have you a point of your own?

mach1982

BostonB wrote: »

High brow stuff indeed.



Wanting an OS to be so intuitive that you don't need to read a manual, pour through forums isn't being lazy its having different expectations, requirements from an OS. Apple attracts users for this very reason. Most distro's are moving in that direction aswell. Vista is moving the opposite direction for some reason.

You do know that since OSX, it unix under the hood.

nesf

ntlbell wrote: »

Expecting people to not be lazy is not elitist.

That depends tbh. Holding the opinion that people should educate themselves before taking part in referendums is construed as being elitist in some circles, for instance.

conor2007

maybe be easier to give commands when trobleshooting , i dont know

but for day to day use , easier and i hate permissions

hate them , so annoying and locked feckin folders

AndrewMc

conor2007 wrote: »

i hate permissions

hate them , so annoying and locked feckin folders

Do you mean folders are spontaneously becoming read-only? That shouldn't happen. Most read-only files/folders are read-only for a good reason. Any particular examples come to mind?

conor2007

i used my ipod as a usb for my music and all the folders were locked when two of them transfered over

there were bout 300 or more folders and only 3 transfered over and even then they did not work

marathont

I have tried switching to linux several times over the last few years, but i always end up going back to xp. I have tried several different distros on several different computers, and really like ubuntu and suse. But there is always something that I cannot get to work, be it the soundcard, graphics or modem. Even after spending days looking through forums on the Internet, there is always one thing that makes me switch back. Its a pity because I really like some of the distros.
Also I would consider myself fairly computer literate and maybe even a bit of a geek, as I have degree in computing work for a software company.

KAGY

Pawwed Rig, you might like to read through this article http://star-techcentral.com/tech/story.asp?file=/2007/12/11/prodit/19702110&sec=prodit

... a windows techie, newbie installing ubuntu for the first time. He does use the command line / console to do everything, but you might pick up a look of useful, basic stuff from the context.

HTH

Khannie

marathont wrote: »

I have tried switching to linux several times over the last few years, but i always end up going back to xp. I have tried several different distros on several different computers, and really like ubuntu and suse. But there is always something that I cannot get to work, be it the soundcard, graphics or modem. Even after spending days looking through forums on the Internet, there is always one thing that makes me switch back. Its a pity because I really like some of the distros.
Also I would consider myself fairly computer literate and maybe even a bit of a geek, as I have degree in computing work for a software company.

You are a carbon copy of me. Your time will come.

PogMoThoin

I finally made the switch a 3 months ago. I still have dual boot, but hardly ever boot to Vista. I'm only keeping it for Crysis & other new games (when i get a new gpu) & also I'm an overclocker and I'm more familiar with windows oc'in utilities. Its been a pleasant experience for me, my bluetooth dongle now works when it didn't in 64bit Vista. Only problems I've had are both Creative ones, my x-fi & webcam will not work at all in linux, its because Creative will not release the source code, but then again the x-fi didn't work as well in Vista as it did in Xp.

ethernet

conor2007 wrote: »

i used my ipod as a usb for my music and all the folders were locked when two of them transfered over

there were bout 300 or more folders and only 3 transfered over and even then they did not work

Lovely permissions! Root owns devices and some of those files must also be owned by root. You would have prevented you from reading them. As the root user, you could, in the shell, do a recursive modification to every file to make it readable by you.

Snowbat

PogMoThoin wrote: »

Only problems I've had are both Creative ones, my x-fi & webcam will not work at all in linux, its because Creative will not release the source code, but then again the x-fi didn't work as well in Vista as it did in Xp.

The X-Fi situation is a bit strange. Creative supposedly sent a sample card to ALSA developers but failed to provide any datasheets. Later, they announced they were planning to develop a proprietary driver themselves (BETA now available but only for x86_64). Sounds like someone at Creative caught a touch of intellectualpropertyitis.

Which webcam model?

PogMoThoin

Ya, had already googled and knew that x-fi is supported in 64 bit ubuntu, but webcam is the Creative IM Pro..........not supported at all as i've googled it, don't really mind as i not use it much, only to vid call my sis in NY every so often, can use vista anyways.

Snowbat

According to Creative's page, there are two models of IM Pro. For the VF0410, they link to Linux UVC, though that page doesn't (yet) show support for the VF0410. For the VF0230, post #5 in this thread indicates it will be supported by the Ali M560x driver (in fact here's the patch adding the USB device IDs).

Shiny

PogMoThoin wrote: »

Ya, had already googled and knew that x-fi is supported in 64 bit ubuntu,

Supported, is a very very strong word to use about that driver! I spent 5
hours yesterday trying to get it working. And after all that it still doesn't work.:mad:
I have to get one of my Linux expert friends over to see can they fix it.

I'm now on Ebay and I'm just going to get a Trust SC-5100. Cheap and it works
fine with Ubuntu Gutsy.

Slutmonkey57b

ntlbell wrote: »

Getting more users is fine, getting people who just whine about doing something as simple as installing xmms to play mp3's as an earlier poster moaned about is not getting us anywhere.

Well excuuuuuuuse them. Imagine wanting to use the computer instead of wanting to spend the next six months in "bash it with a hammer to make it go" mode before they can do simple requirements like MP3 playback that come free with bloody alarm clocks and razors in this day and age!

Why should the end user exist to get you somewhere? If you're going to sit there and whine because someone asked a stupid question, then go back to your BSD cave and stroke your Official Unix Admin's Beard(R).

I came onto this forum because I'm downloading Ubuntu/kbuntu. I thought that, like other tech forums on here (eg building/upgrading) the people of boards would be civilised enough that you could post, for example, "I need to get x or y working" or "hey, what's my best option for doing <something I normally do on XP>" without getting a shedload of abuse. On the windows board, you'll find people asking all sorts of stupid questions - because they're looking for help. Over there, they'll get it, in fact they probably took the time to sticky it at the top of the board. Over here it seems, you might get

"RTFM noob, it's ap-get xmmp unless you're using synaptix or your sound card's not supported google it mother****er or write the driver yourself.

Why do I get the feeling I'll be stopping this download (assuming HEAnet doen't cut it off again)?

conor2007

eh

linux all ye want - mp3 is simple - yet so much hassle ?

ethernet

conor2007 wrote: »

eh

linux all ye want - mp3 is simple - yet so much hassle ?

Just use Ogg Vorbis That plays no problems, out-of-the-box.

ntlbell

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Well excuuuuuuuse them. Imagine wanting to use the computer instead of wanting to spend the next six months in "bash it with a hammer to make it go" mode before they can do simple requirements like MP3 playback that come free with bloody alarm clocks and razors in this day and age!

Why should the end user exist to get you somewhere? If you're going to sit there and whine because someone asked a stupid question, then go back to your BSD cave and stroke your Official Unix Admin's Beard(R).

I came onto this forum because I'm downloading Ubuntu/kbuntu. I thought that, like other tech forums on here (eg building/upgrading) the people of boards would be civilised enough that you could post, for example, "I need to get x or y working" or "hey, what's my best option for doing <something I normally do on XP>" without getting a shedload of abuse. On the windows board, you'll find people asking all sorts of stupid questions - because they're looking for help. Over there, they'll get it, in fact they probably took the time to sticky it at the top of the board. Over here it seems, you might get

"RTFM noob, it's ap-get xmmp unless you're using synaptix or your sound card's not supported google it mother****er or write the driver yourself.

Why do I get the feeling I'll be stopping this download (assuming HEAnet doen't cut it off again)?

What is your point exactly?

sobriquet

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

... shedload of abuse. On the windows board, you'll find ...

If I went on the Windows board and complained that windows sucks because I can't get Cygwin to compile so I'm going back to whatever else without much in the way of qualification I wouldn't honestly expect to get very far. The OP didn't say, hey I need to get x or y working, he said Linux sucks, without much in the way of qualification. He was put on the right track when it became apparent he completely grabbed the wrong end of the stick when it comes to getting Linux working.

If someone is having trouble getting mp3s to work, how is instructing them to install the codecs via Synaptic bad advice? Maybe it's just me, but that seems like a good response to your 'hey I need to x or y working' request.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Why do I get the feeling I'll be stopping this download (assuming HEAnet doen't cut it off again)?

I dunno, why? What's that got to do with anything?

FWIW, I had the opportunity to do a clean reinstall to Ubuntu 7.10 last November. The first time I tried to watch an AVI in Totem, it downloaded the appropriate codecs for me, and I don't recall having any other serious problems getting stuff like that working.

Snowbat

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Well excuuuuuuuse them. Imagine wanting to use the computer instead of wanting to spend the next six months in "bash it with a hammer to make it go" mode before they can do simple requirements like MP3 playback that come free with bloody alarm clocks and razors in this day and age!

Not free - US$0.75 per unit goes to Thomson or the manufacturer/importer is asking to be sued. That is the practical reason why you don't find out-of-the-box support in the more popular free distros. It wasn't always like that though - prior to August 2002, out-of-the-box MP3 support was available in most all free distros. As I recall, Red Hat started the bolt by pulling MP3 support from RHL 8.0 (Psyche), released a month after the new terms appeared.

Some distros also cite philosophical reasons for not including support for restricted formats.

No user is happy with the "bash it with a hammer" kludge - it is a workaround for legal issues in certain jurisdictions. If you have a good solution, we're all ears.

Slutmonkey57b

ntlbell wrote: »

What is your point exactly?

My point?

This isn't a programming or sysadmin's forum. If you don't like dealing with the great unwashed public who aren't experienced sysadmins, and might behave stupidly, then why stick around here? The simple truth is that as Linux gets more popular, the questions are going to get stupider and stupider. The mods of the Windows forum have the right idea - post the information in an easy-to get sticky, give comprehensible answers, and be polite even in the face of stupidity. Their list of free or open-source software even contains recommendations and reviews, something that costs someone in the know a couple of seconds to post, but saves someone clueless hours of searching, trying different apps, and possibly money.

Yes the OP was being stupid. But the point is, he didn't know he was being stupid, he was just frustrated. Being polite and trying to help him costs nothing. Not posting because you think the OP is an idiot also costs nothing, and has the benefit of not driving people away from Linux simply because they don't get it first time, or second time, or even when someone was drip feeding them the info.

Slutmonkey57b

Snowbat wrote: »

Not free - US$0.75 per unit goes to Thomson or the manufacturer/importer is asking to be sued. That is the practical reason why you don't find out-of-the-box support in the more popular free distros. It wasn't always like that though - prior to August 2002, out-of-the-box MP3 support was available in most all free distros. As I recall, Red Hat started the bolt by pulling MP3 support from RHL 8.0 (Psyche), released a month after the new terms appeared.

Some distros also cite philosophical reasons for not including support for restricted formats.

No user is happy with the "bash it with a hammer" kludge - it is a workaround for legal issues in certain jurisdictions. If you have a good solution, we're all ears.

I'm aware of the legal restrictions around MP3, but I'm using it as a simple example that the average user might encounter. Mainstream users don't know these issues, and most importantly, don't care. They care that they want <Thing A> to work. If it's not working, they'd probably want to know how to "make it go", without having to search for hours only to end up having to recompile something, install obscure drivers that some blogger discovered work despite being for something else etc etc...

Linux is still a nerd's OS. It's a lot better than it was, but for all the Windoze bashing that goes on, there's one simple thing that windows does well:
Making it easy. If Linux lovers are genuine about wanting people to switch, they have to get into the mindset of "How can we make it easy for the muppets to do X". That's what Apple did with OSX, and it's why Microsoft runs such a successful Developer's programme.

monkey tennis

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Linux is still a nerd's OS.

Kernel, not OS. Some distros are easier to use than others.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

there's one simple thing that windows does well:
Making it easy.

I'm not sure I understand how doing a search for (e.g.) 'mp3 player' in (e.g.) Ubuntu's Synaptic is any harder than doing a google search for the same thing in Windows.

ntlbell

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

My point?

This isn't a programming or sysadmin's forum. If you don't like dealing with the great unwashed public who aren't experienced sysadmins, and might behave stupidly, then why stick around here? The simple truth is that as Linux gets more popular, the questions are going to get stupider and stupider. The mods of the Windows forum have the right idea - post the information in an easy-to get sticky, give comprehensible answers, and be polite even in the face of stupidity. Their list of free or open-source software even contains recommendations and reviews, something that costs someone in the know a couple of seconds to post, but saves someone clueless hours of searching, trying different apps, and possibly money.

Yes the OP was being stupid. But the point is, he didn't know he was being stupid, he was just frustrated. Being polite and trying to help him costs nothing. Not posting because you think the OP is an idiot also costs nothing, and has the benefit of not driving people away from Linux simply because they don't get it first time, or second time, or even when someone was drip feeding them the info.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that *I* want "linux" to go mainstream, I rarely ever use any linux "distro".

I'm not some Linux advocate that worries that every time I don't spoon feed someone in what they regard to be the "right" way that I may scare people from installing whatever OS they want, again I came to the thread to make sure anyone who might read it understand where the problem lies and that might not necessarily been with ubuntu in this case.

If you read through the full thread you would have noted on numerous occasions were I state I don't particularly mind answering questions, this wasn't the issue the issue was the OP slating Linux because he wasn't capable of reading and that's fine if he doesn't care to put a bit of effort in that's no problem and he can return to Windows and that's also no problem.

I'm not a mod on this forum so why don't you put those ideas to them? or put them in the feedback forum to see will they work on those stickies, or why don't you go one better and do some research and write a howto on something yourself and offer it to the admins to get the ball rolling.

People are not born with linux man pages implanted in their brain and nor was I but i had to spend hours reading them, can I not expect if someone wants to use an OS that right NOW requires some reading and research to do and return with specific questions on that research? or find a product that does it in a more laymans way e.g. mac os/Windows etc

ntlbell

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Linux is still a nerd's OS. It's a lot better than it was, but for all the Windoze bashing that goes on, there's one simple thing that windows does well:
Making it easy. If Linux lovers are genuine about wanting people to switch, they have to get into the mindset of "How can we make it easy for the muppets to do X". That's what Apple did with OSX, and it's why Microsoft runs such a successful Developer's programme.

A nerd's OS? are you for real? Have you any idea what year it is?
Windows does things simple, correct and it's also very simple to put that same windows box on a nice botnet to be used to spam and DdoS the rest of the planet, but I'm glad it's easy and hope people that find it easy and get their work done using it continue to do so :rolleyes:

Again I'm not sure where you get the idea that Linux "lovers" want people to switch, I'm sure there is but not every single person who installs turns into a zelots and wants everyone the planet to use it, I want people to use whatever gets the job done in the most efficient/secure/safest way and hope they make the right choice be it MS/Mac/Linux/*BSD or whatever

Khannie

monkey tennis wrote: »

Kernel, not OS.

Pedant.

monkey tennis wrote: »

Some distros are easier to use than others.

Granted. Linux != linux, but linux is really linux underneath it all, if you get my drift. Someone who's proficient with ubuntu will find it very easy to use fedora, etc.

monkey tennis wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand how doing a search for (e.g.) 'mp3 player' in (e.g.) Ubuntu's Synaptic is any harder than doing a google search for the same thing in Windows.

Package management and software installation from a trusted source is IMO the greatest advantage that the various linux distros have over windows.

Christ....the very notion of going back to googling for software, installing it and hoping that it's not riddled with crap just fills me with terror.

edit: ntlbell: While I'm not one of those zealots either, I would like to see more widespread adoption of linux for two reasons that suit me:

1) Gaming is lacking and more linux gamers increases the likelyhood of my favourite game being ported to linux
2) More people = more coders. A lot of open source talent is being directed at windows specific software at the moment. I'd love to have those people do my bidding in the linux world.

Slutmonkey57b

ntlbell wrote: »

A nerd's OS? are you for real? Have you any idea what year it is?

Here's the start of the instructions for getting my USB wifi adaptor to work in Ubuntu, from the official forums:

Start with the WG111 out of the USB port.

Undertake a clean install of Ubuntu 6.06 LTS

Blacklist the default drivers installed as part of Dapper

gksudo gedit /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist

[...add to the bottom of the listing....]
blacklist islsm_pci
blacklist islsm
blacklist islsm_usb
blacklist prism2_usb

Not a nerd's OS? The above pertains to the previous edition of Ubuntu, but the issue is the same in 7.10. I have never had to totally re-install windows just to get a very common usb device working, nor have I ever met anyone that did. And that's before you download ndiswrapper (not through Synaptix though because the version from that "trusted source" is broken), compile it (no downloading a pre-compiled executable here!), and start fiddling with how the system assigns MAC addresses in the command prompt.

Windows does things simple, correct and it's also very simple to put that same windows box on a nice botnet to be used to spam and DdoS the rest of the planet, but I'm glad it's easy and hope people that find it easy and get their work done using it continue to do so :rolleyes:

Let's not get into the whole stupid debate about how "unsafe" windows is, and whether that's down to stupid users or stupid programming. We can agree however that nothing is unhackable, and the reason Linux isn't a target for botnets is that it isn't a large enough target for the russian mafia to bother programming for.

ntlbell

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Not a nerd's OS? The above pertains to the previous edition of Ubuntu, but the issue is the same in 7.10. I have never had to totally re-install windows just to get a very common usb device working, nor have I ever met anyone that did. And that's before you download ndiswrapper (not through Synaptix though because the version from that "trusted source" is broken), compile it (no downloading a pre-compiled executable here!), and start fiddling with how the system assigns MAC addresses in the command prompt.
.

I've never had totally re-install any OS to get a very common usb device working nor have I ever met anyone that has ? point?

I don't use Ubuntu, I don't use any Linux based OS what is your point?
Maybe the problem is with the vendor not opening up the device so that people can write a native driver or why the vendor didn't write one, why don't you ask these questions of the hardware vendors and not at the mostly unpaid dev's that work on the distro's?

Slutmonkey57b

My point? My point couldn't be more obvious! You claimed it wasn't a Nerd's OS, as though it has made massive strides towards "end-user" normality. That's *far* from true. Even the most user-friendly distro is about as normal as LARPing.

Let's take the point that maybe all vendors should write open-source drivers (and leave aside the idea that such a move creates a hacker's wonderland) for all the myriad hardware out there and use another example.

"Out of the box", ubuntu won't detect your windows partitions. Fair enough, closed-source, blah etc. However, the tools to detect and mount the partitions are sitting there IN the OS. The nice shiny GUI app that detects the partitions isn't linked in any way to the terminal commands that do the mounting. There is a right-click option to mount things - but that doesn't link into the shiny "here are all your partitions" app either. So - the OS knows where the disks are, knows what they are called, and could, with a few lines of code, mount them for you. But it doesn't. **** knows why. There couldn't possibly be a more basic, more necessary function for any Linux system to perform than to mount windows partitions. It should be done automatically. It could be done very simply, with a wizard guiding you through it. But there isn't one. Instead, there's a pointless set of fiddling with console paramaters. That's not an example of the end user being either stupid, or lazy. It's a classic example of programmers getting their priorities all wrong, and wasting the end users time for no good reason.

I'm well aware Windows doesn't mount other OS partitions automatically either. The obvious difference is that Windows is a monopolist that is doing everything it can to stop you using another OS. Linux is supposed to be finding ways to persuade us to switch.

ntlbell

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

My point? My point couldn't be more obvious! You claimed it wasn't a Nerd's OS, as though it has made massive strides towards "end-user" normality. That's *far* from true. Even the most user-friendly distro is about as normal as LARPing.

1.a stupid, irritating, ineffectual, or unattractive person. 2.an intelligent but single-minded person obsessed with a nonsocial hobby or pursuit: a computer nerd.

yep, they're the people that use Linux for sure.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Linux is supposed to be finding ways to persuade us to switch.

Huh?

Are you just pretending to be this stupid to wind me up?

Linux "distro's" and there is a hell of a lot of them out there all aim to do different things if you can't find one that does all you need then go and find an OS that does, or if you notice a feature is missing, start coding it?

Most open source developers do so for nothing and they do as a hobby or they work to build something that they can use to get their work done. The notion that you think these people slave away to meet the lowest common denominator's demands are off the charts.

Linux is a kernel, other people take this kernel, wrap some open source apps around it that others have built and package it up and give you another choice
Debian have certain ideas and certain directions they want to take Linux, Red Hat have a completely different set of priorities gentoo or whatever the distro is all have different goals but what they all have in common is a bunch of people working FOR NOTHING to build something for THE COMMUNITY for FREE.

You're more than welcome to take a linux kernel or take a linux distro and add whatever feature you see fit, or PAY a developer to take it he way you see fit and that's the beauty of it.

No one is forcing you to use Ubuntu, no one forces you to do anything and I'm not trying to convince you what to use, use whatever DOES THE JOB FOR YOU.

I'm still failing to see your point.

Is your point Linux distro's are not for general public use?

Are you saying Microsoft Windows XP/Vista makes a better OS for non technical users?

If so who's arguing with you?

sobriquet

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

give comprehensible answers, and be polite even in the face of stupidity. [...] Yes the OP was being stupid. But the point is, he didn't know he was being stupid, he was just frustrated. Being polite and trying to help him costs nothing.

I don't honestly think that a similar thread on a Windows forum - starting with a flame (intentional or not) about how much Windows sucks and taking two weeks to state what he was doing and trying to do, despite requests to explain and explanations of what might be going wrong - would be met solely with beatific calm.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

my USB wifi adaptor...

Does the manufacturer supply Linux drivers for it? Given what you outlined, I doubt it, thus comparing it to using it on Windows isn't exactly apples to apples. There exists a specific project to build drivers for whatever manufacturer wants them built. The will is most certainly there, and that project is apparently oversubscribed with developers wanting to participate, and under subscribed with companies willing to bother taking advantage of the service.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

the reason Linux isn't a target for botnets is that it isn't a large enough target for the russian mafia to bother programming for.

Yes, absolutely. That's not a basis for implying that the state Windows was in for a long time would inevitably happen in the linux world. Apple will have similar trouble as it gains marketshare, but again, the issues that plagued Windows aren't inevitable there either. And these days MS seem to be very serious about partitioning userspace and limiting damage in XP and Vista. Great.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Let's take the point that maybe all vendors should write open-source drivers (and leave aside the idea that such a move creates a hacker's wonderland)

Um...? Yes, we should leave that idea aside. The source for the Linux kernel and drivers, and for the BSD systems, is already there, freely available. If companies released drivers that weren't up to par, they wouldn't be integrated into the mainline kernels. Most likely the kernel hackers would use that code as a reference to implement their own.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

"Out of the box", ubuntu won't detect your windows partitions.

Ok, now you've lost me - I've been using Ubuntu since the 5.10 release, and that's never happened to me. I don't make note of these things, but certainly installing 7.10 in october has since left me with sdb1 automounted every time I boot up, no juju necessary. For the record these are Western Digital SATA2 disks, nothing special... what disks do you have?

Khannie

ntlbell wrote: »

Most open source developers do so for nothing and they do as a hobby

With the advent of corporate investment, the notion of people hacking away on the kernel (or any heavily used tool) for a hobby is gone. The vast majority of those working on (for example) openoffice, the linux kernel, etc. are all well paid by some company or other.

Of course, hobby hackers still form a very important part of the linux open source scene (I know you're a bsd man).

ntlbell

Khannie wrote: »

With the advent of corporate investment, the notion of people hacking away on the kernel (or any heavily used tool) for a hobby is gone. The vast majority of those working on (for example) openoffice, the linux kernel, etc. are all well paid by some company or other.

Of course, hobby hackers still form a very important part of the linux open source scene (I know you're a bsd man).

l wasn't stating it as exclusively to kernel hackers, but a lot of kernel hackers be it linux/BSD are paid by a company to work for THAT company and part of that job maybe for example to add some functionality that this particular company REQUIRES and will obviously put the code back into the community so everyone benefits.

In the grand scheme of things in the open source world IMO as I have no way to back it up, the majority of dev's don't get paid to work on the majority of the projects, and even were there is some investment and SOME of the dev's on particular projects might be getting paid in some form of fashion you can be sure there is usually a lot more not getting paid who add code/debug/patch etc who get nothing but at a thank you and a penguin for there desk.

Slutmonkey57b

ntlbell wrote: »

1.a stupid, irritating, ineffectual, or unattractive person. 2.an intelligent but single-minded person obsessed with a nonsocial hobby or pursuit: a computer nerd.

yep, they're the people that use Linux for sure.

You do love to dodge the answers to the questions you ask, don't you?

Huh?

Are you just pretending to be this stupid to wind me up?

Linux "distro's" and there is a hell of a lot of them out there all aim to do different things if you can't find one that does all you need then go and find an OS that does, or if you notice a feature is missing, start coding it?

I find the only trolling going on here at the moment is your own. Drop the personal abuse or get off the thread please.

You are consistently telling me that anyone who uses Linux must be prepared to code solutions to the problems they encounter. If there are so many flavours or projects within Linux, that's a nonsensical statement to make - they all have different aims in mind, and the idea that users who are not prepared (or not qualified) to code should not be using the OS, as you are saying, proves only my point above that Linux is still stuck as a nerd's OS rather than an end-user's one. The difference between the two is not a matter of attractiveness, it's a difference of purpose - a general "user" has an objective they want to achieve with the OS - and should expect the OS to get out of their way and let them do it. A nerd approaches an OS as a project to be tinkered with.

However, the simple fact is that in order to achieve those aims, they are going to have to persuade end-users to take up their OS-namely making them switch from the dominant platform. Being unable to perform basic functions like Wifi access, or ntfs support, without substantial hacking on the part of the user is not going to persuade users that Linux is a useful replacement or alternative from the status quo (whatever that might be).

No one is forcing you to use Ubuntu, no one forces you to do anything and I'm not trying to convince you what to use, use whatever DOES THE JOB FOR YOU.

I'm still failing to see your point.

Is your point Linux distro's are not for general public use?

Are you saying Microsoft Windows XP/Vista makes a better OS for non technical users?

If so who's arguing with you?

What's my point? You were berating people earlier for not being prepared to work at using Linux, either because they're stupid or lazy. The truth is that Linux is still nowhere near robust enough to be considered a mainstream OS, and for all the buzz the various devs are making about it, it is still far from being usable.