Liverpool v Man Utd - Sunday 16th December

~Rebel~

Tauren wrote:

Is Pennant injured at the moment?

I am not his biggest fan, but he can, on occasion, whip a nice cross in and does offer genuine width when he is on the pitch.

yeah he picked up a serious long term injury, broken leg i believe, out till next year anyway. January at the earliest i'd say. He's a loss alright, seriously limits our options for the right, Yossi can be grand against middling teams, but not one to get to the byline and put in a cross.

Mitch Connor

fair enough.

Liverpool really do need width, but i'm personally not sure who they should go for.

I don't think Babel or Yossi were the right buys at any rate - neither are wingers.

~Rebel~

Tauren wrote: »

fair enough.

Liverpool really do need width, but i'm personally not sure who they should go for.

I don't think Babel or Yossi were the right buys at any rate - neither are wingers.

Babel im happy with as he's young enough to incorporate a lot more to his game. Its a gamble of 11mill to get a potential top class winger/wingforward in the next few years, rather then 11mill for a good but not unbelieveable winger now.

Yossi i agree with. It's just an odd one. We had Pennant who was decent, what we needed was someone steller, who Pennant would be the backup for. Instead we got another middling player. He's good, not great. Shines at times, but no consistency and very lightweight at times (looks like a strong breeze would carry him away). I think maybe this was another one of Rafa's temporary stopgap/profit moves. This immediately asks questions of the money offered to him over the summer. I get the feeling maybe Babel was being bought regardless, and Malouda would have been the other acquisition, but as Malouda said Rafa wanted him but the board didn't. So instead we got the temp of Yossi. I saw Bellamy as the same, decent player, keep him for a year, sell him for profit. Yossi and Voronin could well be the same.

Hopefully in January and next summer the money will be available for proper replacements.

Mitch Connor

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Babel im happy with as he's young enough to incorporate a lot more to his game. Its a gamble of 11mill to get a potential top class winger/wingforward in the next few years, rather then 11mill for a good but not unbelieveable winger now.

I do like Babel - but i simply don't think he is a winger - no more so then someone like Henry or Rooney (players who like to take on a man, drift out side/deep etc.

Babel is a forward player imo, and as such won't fit into a 442 formation, and will not do his best work in a 433/451 formation either. IMO he is a player that will play best off a lead-the-line striker. Putting him out wide left because he has skill/pace/a-left-foot is very English.

As you say, he has the potential to be a top class winger/forward, but not in the Liverpool side - to mature into a top winger style forward, he would need to play for a side like Barcelona - in a position like Ronaldinho or Messi's; a free role type of position.

Sure, he can certainly do a job for you out there on the wing in your current style/formation but i don't think you will get the best out of him.

All just my opinion, of course, and i'm certainly no premiership manager, so it is (i suppose) at least possible that Rafa has more chance of being right than i do.

whatawaster

I'm hopeful that the days of us buying squad players is over - we have the basis of a very good squad - we just need quality additions in the right areas.

Goalkeepers - Reina, Itandje (Reina never gets injured, so we're fine there)

Right Backs - Finnan, Arbeloa (Fine here for a couple of years anyway)
Left Backs - New Signing, Aurelio (Get Riise out, get Riise out. It'd be nice to sign a LB who can fill in at CB too.
Centre Backs - Carragher, Agger, New Signing, Hobbs.

Centre Midfield - Mascherano, Alonso, Gerrard, Lucas, New Signing (not a priority). I think we need at least a fifth CM to cover injuries, especially as we sometimes play 3 in the middle away from home. Perhaps Guthrie could do this job.

Right Wing - New Signing, Pennant. Pennant will do fine as second choice, but we need a top class option here. I can't think of many though, Quaresma perhaps, at least he would offer a threat, unlike Benayoun.

Left Wing - New Signing, Kewell. Again, a top class signing is needed. Mancini would be great, I think, or Navas from Sevilla.

Strikers - Torres, New Signing, Babel, Crouch/Kuyt. Sell Voronin for a couple of Mill profit, sell either crouch or Kuyt. I'm leaning towards Crouch as he'd bring in more funds. I'd like to see Babel given a run in the side with Torres to see how that goes. He really impressed me when he came on yesterday. If I were rafa, I would beg and grovel until the owners agreed to sign Benzema, he looks class. Sell Crouch, Riise, Sissoko, Voronin and Benayoun to fund him if necessary.


The priority is a Centre Back, and i'm sure this will be addressed in the Jan window - someone youngish probably like Garay costing 10m wouldn't break the bank since much of those funds were there for Heinze already. I'd sell Momo in january and recall Guthrie as backup. Then i'd hope for a striker (please Benzema) and at least one of the wingers in the summer.

Chardee MacDennis

Tauren wrote: »

Babel is a forward player imo, and as such won't fit into a 442 formation, and will not do his best work in a 433/451 formation either. IMO he is a player that will play best off a lead-the-line striker. Putting him out wide left because he has skill/pace/a-left-foot is very English.

well they must have had a lot of English at Ajax as he was playing LW in a 4-3-3 system, from what I have seen of him at Ajax this was his best position. Now it may be as a forward, but i still think he is adjusting to the EPL and he will learn his winger role again.

also he looked like our biggest threat when he came on. also does anyone else think Auriello should have taken out free in the last few minutes, his left peg is amazing at set pieces.

whatawaster

Tauren wrote: »

I do like Babel - but i simply don't think he is a winger - no more so then someone like Henry or Rooney (players who like to take on a man, drift out side/deep etc.

Babel is a forward player imo, and as such won't fit into a 442 formation, and will not do his best work in a 433/451 formation either. IMO he is a player that will play best off a lead-the-line striker. Putting him out wide left because he has skill/pace/a-left-foot is very English.

As you say, he has the potential to be a top class winger/forward, but not in the Liverpool side - to mature into a top winger style forward, he would need to play for a side like Barcelona - in a position like Ronaldinho or Messi's; a free role type of position.

Sure, he can certainly do a job for you out there on the wing in your current style/formation but i don't think you will get the best out of him.

All just my opinion, of course, and i'm certainly no premiership manager, so it is (i suppose) at least possible that Rafa has more chance of being right than i do.

I disagree, i think he'd be best as a wing forward, but not as a winger in a 442, as he cut's inside too much. He has No left foot, but he looks more comfortable on the left. I think he'll be a terrific player.

Xavi6

whatawaster wrote: »

Left Wing - New Signing, Kewell. Again, a top class signing is needed. Mancini would be great, I think, or Navas from Sevilla.

Navas won't be going anywhere. From Wiki -

Navas suffers from chronic homesickness, to the extent that he has walked out of training camps within Spain because they were too far away from Seville. He also suffers from anxiety attacks and seizures. Navas initially refused to travel with Sevilla during pre-season to the United States due to his acute homesickness, later deciding that he would travel in a bid to rid himself of this condition.

And last time I checked he was a right winger.

~Rebel~

Call_me_al wrote: »

also he looked like our biggest threat when he came on. also does anyone else think Auriello should have taken out free in the last few minutes, his left peg is amazing at set pieces.

I know what you mean, he does usually come very very close with his free's, but at the same time, has yet to score one for pool (i think!). I think under the high pressure situation, having seen what happened against Villa under similar circumstances, Gerrard was probably the logical option.

whatawaster

Xavi6 wrote: »

Navas won't be going anywhere. From Wiki -


And last time I checked he was a right winger.

Steer well clear then so.

Mitch Connor

Call_me_al wrote: »

well they must have had a lot of English at Ajax as he was playing LW in a 4-3-3 system, from what I have seen of him at Ajax this was his best position. Now it may be as a forward, but i still think he is adjusting to the EPL and he will learn his winger role again.

also he looked like our biggest threat when he came on. also does anyone else think Auriello should have taken out free in the last few minutes, his left peg is amazing at set pieces.

433 at ajax - as i said, i reckon he can do well in an actual 433 like Barcelona nd possibly Ajax play. IMO Liverpool play too defensively for him to prosper as a winger for them - he can play 433, but not 451 imo. And yes, he did look good against United when he came on. Against a tired team that didn't break down the right - he was not asked to be a winger in a 451, he did not have to defend.

whatawaster wrote: »

I disagree, i think he'd be best as a wing forward, but not as a winger in a 442, as he cut's inside too much. He has No left foot, but he looks more comfortable on the left. I think he'll be a terrific player.

Give him a free role (like Ronaldo has for United) and he could do well on the wing, but i think Rafa will ask too much of him defensively and expect him to stick to the wing too much for him to really prosper.

IMO, it is very close to asking Henry to play as a left winger. The position he played in for Juventus. He could play there, but if he played there for a number of years, we wouldn't have seen half the player.

~Rebel~

Tauren wrote:

433 at ajax - as i said, i reckon he can do well in an actual 433 like Barcelona nd possibly Ajax play. IMO Liverpool play too defensively for him to prosper as a winger for them - he can play 433, but not 451 imo. And yes, he did look good against United when he came on. Against a tired team that didn't break down the right - he was not asked to be a winger in a 451, he did not have to defend.


Give him a free role (like Ronaldo has for United) and he could do well on the wing, but i think Rafa will ask too much of him defensively and expect him to stick to the wing too much for him to really prosper.

Thats kind of what im hoping for, fingers crossed. Don't know though, as you say its Rafa's style to take defensive responsibility away from players, but given the quality of Alonso and Masch, as well as Gerrard harrying around in some sort of free role there's always hope..we have seen to an extent with Gerrard a willingness to allow a player to shake off going back into his own half to defend for the greater benefit of his attacking prowess. Maybe, just maybe, if the players are good enough, he'll embrace it.

My ideal situation anyway;

~Rebel~ wrote:

---

Reina

---

Back 4

---

---

Alonso---Masch

---

Gerrard
---Babel

---

NEW.WF

---

Torres

With someone like Benzema as the other WF, with him and Babel swapping around. Looks like a force to be reckoned with.

event

so do pool fans think they will be involved at the business end this year?

~Rebel~

event wrote: »

so do pool fans think they will be involved at the business end this year?

Its a tough one to answer. Obviously we've made it very tough for ourselves losing to United and leaving 3 away games against the 3 biggies.

Yes its still possible. To be honest, aside from getting very optimistic over the situation over the past few months, i, as at the beginning of the season, will still consider this year a success just to be up with the others come the end. Within 10 points of the winners would do me I think. But I really really want us to win 1 of those 3 tough away fixtures. Thats a monkey we really need to get off our back.

Melion

event wrote: »

so do pool fans think they will be involved at the business end this year?

Why wont we be?
There is no doubt we could go to Old Trafford, The Emirates and Stamford Bridge and get result in all of those games.
We have shown consistency up until last weekend this season that we've never had before in the premiership. I think, if we beat Pompey next weekend, we will go unbeaten until the Chelsea game on February 9th.

Xavi6

event wrote: »

so do pool fans think they will be involved at the business end this year?

Ha of course they do. New season, same old false hope. I just wish fans would realise when their team simply isn't good enough. Liverpool have too many inferior players to win the league even with the transfer window.

kida

Melion wrote: »

Why wont we be?
There is no doubt we could go to Old Trafford, The Emirates and Stamford Bridge and get result in all of those games.
We have shown consistency up until last weekend this season that we've never had before in the premiership. I think, if we beat Pompey next weekend, we will go unbeaten until the Chelsea game on February 9th.

IF - the main word in a Liverpool fans vocabularly
Few weeks ago it was if we beat Utd

Pompey have one of best away records in the league
You play Man City away who are 100% at home

Spud83

Nothing can be decided at this stage. Ten points is catchable definitly especially with the game in hand to possible make it seven.

A couple of things are hugely against Liverpool though.

1) They have to play the big three away.
2) The are not trying to catch one team, they are trying to catch three(they are really close to Chelsea if they win the game in hand though).
3) Come Febuary if they haven't caught up in the league I believe Rafa will again make the champions league his priority meaning more rotation (yes that dreaded over used argument) in the league.

Melion wrote: »

Why wont we be?
There is no doubt we could go to Old Trafford, The Emirates and Stamford Bridge and get result in all of those games.
We have shown consistency up until last weekend this season that we've never had before in the premiership. I think, if we beat Pompey next weekend, we will go unbeaten until the Chelsea game on February 9th.

Just a quick point on this, I dont think going unbeaten will be enough. You need to win more games than the other teams, not losing more will not be enough.

Melion

kida wrote: »

IF - the main word in a Liverpool fans vocabularly
Few weeks ago it was if we beat Utd

Pompey have one of best away records in the league
You play Man City away who are 100% at home

What? Would it be easier if i said "We will go unbeaten from now until at least February 9th"? Not much point because i think Pompey will give us a very tough game this weekend.

Melion

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

Nothing can be decided at this stage. Ten points is catchable definitly especially with the game in hand to possible make it seven.

A couple of things are hugely against Liverpool though.

1) They have to play the big three away.
2) The are not trying to catch one team, they are trying to catch three(they are really close to Chelsea if they win the game in hand though).
3) Come Febuary if they haven't caught up in the league I believe Rafa will again make the champions league his priority meaning more rotation (yes that dreaded over used argument) in the league.

Thats the main problem IMO, if we are 7-10 points behind in February he will focus on the CL again.

Prufrock

I'd agree that Liverpool lack quality on the wings. I mean real quality. They guys they have now are good but not good enough to hurt the better teams Liverpool will have to beat if they want to consider winning things on a regular basis.

United on the other hand look good. Solid defence (except maybe at right back) and midfield. Great attacking potential especially on the break. The speed they can break at is scary. Add to that match winners like Rooney and Tevez up front and that's fairly formidable.

smemon

Having failed to beat all of the big 3 at home (Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea) i can't understand how any liverpool fan would expect to go away from home and do any better

1 bad result, put it down as a fluke, 2 bad results, put it down as coincidence... 3 bad results and you have to start picking holes and admitting something is wrong..

The rotation policy doesn't work and it's their biggest problem. They don't have the squad to rotate. Rotating quality for crap doesn't make sense.

If i stack shelves, i don't rotate all the battered and bruised tins of beans to the front and put the quality ones in behind.

I'll hide them in behind the quality one's or chuck them in the bin and write them off as a loss.

zAbbo

smemon wrote: »

If i stack shelves, i don't rotate all the battered and bruised tins of beans to the front and put the quality ones in behind.

I'll hide them in behind the quality one's or chuck them in the bin and write them off as a loss.

Strangely enough, bruised tins are always put to the front, so they are bought before 'quality' ones, your theory is right, but the analogy is miles off...

smemon

zabbo wrote: »

Strangely enough, bruised tins are always put to the front, so they are bought before 'quality' ones, your theory is right, but the analogy is miles off...

well, if your store is going for an audit, and wants to top every other store in the country, your tins at the front will look flawless.. you'll have your best tins on show...

if you're happy to finish 2nrd or 3rd or below of best stores in the country, by all means, move the rubbish tins to the front

DSB

Melion wrote: »

Why wont we be?

Because you aren't good enough.

juanveron45

Banned

smemon

juanveron45, that's exactly what i said, only my post was dressed up in a nice armani suit.

your post is dressed up in rags and smelling of drink, so me thinks you'll be turfed out unless you dress up your post better

ShiverinEskimo

I was having the discussion about Liverpools prospects in the league with a friend after the match. I said that tbh qualifying in the Champions League was the worst thing that has happened to their premiership hopes.

Rafa will go hunt his European whale sacrificing his premiership hopes on the way but knows that a semi final or better in Europe means he can sleep at night.

Not taking away from the Champs league - everyone wants it but ask any Liverpool player or fan which they want more and the answer is obvious.

Melion

This is hilarious.

Apparently Rafa is ruining us by rotating and thats the reason we are losing games. Forgive me if im wrong but did he not name an unchanged side from Marseille to United?

~Rebel~

smemon wrote:

Having failed to beat all of the big 3 at home (Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea) i can't understand how any liverpool fan would expect to go away from home and do any better

1 bad result, put it down as a fluke, 2 bad results, put it down as coincidence... 3 bad results and you have to start picking holes and admitting something is wrong..

The rotation policy doesn't work and it's their biggest problem. They don't have the squad to rotate. Rotating quality for crap doesn't make sense.

If i stack shelves, i don't rotate all the battered and bruised tins of beans to the front and put the quality ones in behind.

I'll hide them in behind the quality one's or chuck them in the bin and write them off as a loss.

Sadly I agree with pretty much all of the above in a sense.

Of the results at home, the first V Chelsea was a bit of a fluke, Pool really deserved that win and were pretty much robbed of 2 points, the second V Arsenal was a pretty fair result, and the third against United was also pretty fair, they got their share of luck with a very well worked set piece taking a deflection to Tevez feet, but the important part is that pool didn't really look like scoring and so United deserved their win.

As for the rotation thing, at the moment its ok as its largely things like Babel for Kewell (babel hasn't quite shown his sub form from the start but when i does i predict him to be a more regular starter) or Benayoun for Pennant, Aurelio for Arbeloa, Kuyt for Voronin/Crouch etc, with the main savage players only getting rested the odd time rather then rotated. Looking at this, I predict that once quality wingers come in they will only ever be swapped out for rest purposes unless he brings in 4 class wingers, as its very tough to drop someone when theres a gulf in class between them and the backup. Case in point Torres, when he really showed his class he became an untouchable.

MrPillowTalk

When Rafa gets a transfer budget of 30 mill he would rather buy 10 average players for 3 mill than 2 world class ones for 15. Torres being the eception.

ShiverinEskimo

Melion wrote: »

Apparently Rafa is ruining us by rotating and thats the reason we are losing games. Forgive me if im wrong but did he not name an unchanged side from Marseille to United?

I think people were talking down the line when it gets into the knockout stages of the champs league. Also it was a do or die match against Marseille and arguably Pools biggest match of the season against United so obviously he wanted his strongest squad for both. You wouldn't rotate your squad with big games its the smaller games that he might start tweaking with.

Its when he starts rotating against the lower teams in the league on the Saturday/Sunday before a Tuesday night champs league match that Pool start dropping points IMO.

~Rebel~

MrPillowTalk wrote: »

When Rafa gets a transfer budget of 30 mill he would rather buy 10 average players for 3 mill than 2 world class ones for 15. Torres being the eception.

Actually I think you'll find that as soon as we had some money, rather then being on a shoe string and not able to take a risk on big money players (board was spurned enough in the past with these deals, Cisse, Diouf, Heskey etc etc), he immediately went and spent 20mill on Torres and 11mill on a 19 year old Babel.

Unearthly

Melion wrote: »

This is hilarious.

Apparently Rafa is ruining us by rotating and thats the reason we are losing games. Forgive me if im wrong but did he not name an unchanged side from Marseille to United?

You lose to sides like Reading or draw with the likes of Birmingham because of silly rotation, you lost to Man Utd because they are a better team.

PHB

This idea of a 4-3-3 like Ajax is pretty hopeful to work in a league like England, and it has never worked before. Chelsea won with a 4-3-3, but Drogba is a totally different player to Torres, and utterly changes how the system works. I can't see a 4-3-3 style formation being anywhere near consistant enough to win the English league.

Em, rotation argument is a load of crap. Rafa does it a bit more than others, but not hugely more. The problem is that Rafa rotates poorly and at bad times. He doesn't rotate that much more than the other managers, he just rotates incorrectly. How many times have we seen a United side that includes Fletcher and O'Shea, and everybody is like, oh ****, but United win the game (just). It's because he picks and chooses the right games to rotate, and often doesn't rotate against the really **** teams, instead likes to build up momentum. It's not about rotation, it's about poor choices of when to rotate.