Liverpool v Man Utd - Sunday 16th December

smemon

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote: »

Yes but of course that is your opinion and it is you who made the post to back up the other post that you made. :rolleyes: How does that mean anything at all ?

it's further detail/explanation on my original post which shows how i arrived at my conclusion utd have the better players :cool:

An Citeog

Call_me_al wrote: »

no you're not getting this we're only allowed count the goals against teams united fans OK. so obviously Reading and Derby are out, so he's only scored.....

wait now i'm lost? which Torres goals count in the top scorer table?

oh all PL goals, even against Derby, FFS lads, this is why I hate most united fans....

I hate sweeping statements such as this. All United fans are arrogant blah, blah, blah. So Torres is heralded for his performances and goals against the lesser teams. I agree completely and from what I've seen of him, he's pure class. Does that mean it's ok to count Ronaldo's performances and goals against the lesser teams aswell or is that something different?

Double standards, that's what I hate. It doesn't matter what team you support, it's idiocy and hypocrisy that I hate!*


*Don't worry call_me_al, this one's not aimed at you.

fortuneg

An Citeog wrote: »

Double standards, that's what I hate. It doesn't matter what team you support, it's idiocy and hypocrisy that I hate!

Here here, and there's a little to much of it floating around on these boards.
There must've been a special on red tinted glasses (both sides).

PHB

Wow this thread has gone a bit nuts.

Call_me_al wrote: »

while anderson is only attacking. but i haven't seen that much of either to be sure.

You clearly haven't seen any game Anderson has played in then. His main talent this year has been his defensive work. Indeed, you will see that this weekend.

A couple of things, if you don't think Gerrard dives as much as Ronaldo you're delusional. He's at it all the time. Fair enough, I'm not slating him for it, but he does it.

Mascherano might be able to mark Kaka out of the game, but Milan's main attacking threat comes from Kaka up front. He is the player you have to stop. They play with two deep lying midfielders and one really attacking one, so you can do what Mascherano did.
United don't play like that at all.
Mascherano doesn't just have to deal with Ronaldo, he has to deal with Tevez/Rooney aswell (whichever one has dropped deep). He can't mark two players at once, it's just not possible. Which is why I think Sissoko will play, and Rafa will rely on some magic from the Gerrard/Torres combo. Sissoko and Mascherano should be able to stop lots from United going forward, no doubt about it.
But I think it will leave them with too little possession and too little going forward. Liverpool have been able to dominate these games in the past, but because that had Alonso instead of Sissoko. He controls possession much more.

---

As for the who would get into the team?
I'd pick Reina over VDS personally. THen again, I'd pick Cech over both of them in a spilt second.
I'd pick a Neville-Ferdinand-Vidic-Evra back line, but I'd have a real fight between Vidic and Carragher, and Neville and Finnan. The only difference for me between Finnan and Neville is that Neville wins more competititions. IMO they are pretty much equal and indentical players.
I'd pick Scholesy over Gerrard any day, I couldn't decide between MAscherano and Hargreaves, I'd pick Ronaldo and Kewell personally. But that's just cause Giggs is so **** this year.
I'd pick Rooney and Torres obviously.
What's that then, 3 to 7? I love these discussions

whatawaster

PHB wrote: »

Wow this thread has gone a bit nuts.



You clearly haven't seen any game Anderson has played in then. His main talent this year has been his defensive work. Indeed, you will see that this weekend.

A couple of things, if you don't think Gerrard dives as much as Ronaldo you're delusional. He's at it all the time. Fair enough, I'm not slating him for it, but he does it.

Mascherano might be able to mark Kaka out of the game, but Milan's main attacking threat comes from Kaka up front. He is the player you have to stop. They play with two deep lying midfielders and one really attacking one, so you can do what Mascherano did.
United don't play like that at all.
Mascherano doesn't just have to deal with Ronaldo, he has to deal with Tevez/Rooney aswell (whichever one has dropped deep). He can't mark two players at once, it's just not possible. Which is why I think Sissoko will play, and Rafa will rely on some magic from the Gerrard/Torres combo. Sissoko and Mascherano should be able to stop lots from United going forward, no doubt about it.
But I think it will leave them with too little possession and too little going forward. Liverpool have been able to dominate these games in the past, but because that had Alonso instead of Sissoko. He controls possession much more.

---

As for the who would get into the team?
I'd pick Reina over VDS personally. THen again, I'd pick Cech over both of them in a spilt second.
I'd pick a Neville-Ferdinand-Vidic-Evra back line, but I'd have a real fight between Vidic and Carragher, and Neville and Finnan. The only difference for me between Finnan and Neville is that Neville wins more competititions. IMO they are pretty much equal and indentical players.
I'd pick Scholesy over Gerrard any day, I couldn't decide between MAscherano and Hargreaves, I'd pick Ronaldo and Kewell personally. But that's just cause Giggs is so **** this year.
I'd pick Rooney and Torres obviously.
What's that then, 3 to 7? I love these discussions

er, 3 plus 7 equals ten!
No sane person would leave Gerrard out of that team. He's probably capable of being the second best winger from the two teams. He has everything a winger needs - pace, crossing ability, can beat players etc.

Mascherano is miles better than Hargreaves.

But mark my words. Liverpool will take the game to United. We never just sit back and defend deep like some people suggest we do. Certainly not at home.

Chardee MacDennis

An Citeog wrote: »

I hate sweeping statements such as this. All United fans are arrogant blah, blah, blah. So Torres is heralded for his performances and goals against the lesser teams. I agree completely and from what I've seen of him, he's pure class. Does that mean it's ok to count Ronaldo's performances and goals against the lesser teams aswell or is that something different?

Double standards, that's what I hate. It doesn't matter what team you support, it's idiocy and hypocrisy that I hate!*


*Don't worry call_me_al, this one's not aimed at you.

Hey i think ronaldo is a top class player, even had an argument with dunphy when i told him so , and i hope that first part isnt aimed at me as I haven't said a bad word about the fella or decided any of his performances don't count.

I really should have said arguing with united fans. Anyway i did say most as I don't mind a reasonable argument, which some utd fans make, where the goalposts arent moved every 5 mins. For some reason these types of arguments happen with the only united supporter i'm friends with too. Don't mean to paint you all with the same brush!

PHB

whatawaster wrote: »

er, 3 plus 7 equals ten!

Yeh if you read my post you'd see I couldn't pick between Mascherano and Hargreaves

No sane person would leave Gerrard out of that team. He's probably capable of being the second best winger from the two teams. He has everything a winger needs - pace, crossing ability, can beat players etc.

Really? Last time I checked I was sane. Scholes over Gerrard makes sense to me. Gerrard and Scholes can't play together makes sense to me. Drop Gerrard makes sense to me.
Putting him out on the right wing makes a lot of sense to me. Unfortunately Gerrard doesn't seem to agree and drifts inside all the ****ign time. The team losses its width and becomes worse as a result. As a result, drop him.

Mascherano is miles better than Hargreaves.

Hargreaves medals might question that. And to suggest he's miles better is just hyperbole and you know it.

But mark my words. Liverpool will take the game to United. We never just sit back and defend deep like some people suggest we do. Certainly not at home.

I hope they do, cause if they attack us they will lose imo. I'm not suggesting they'll sit back and defend. They'll dominate possession in those magical circles between Carragher Hyypia and Mascherano, then knock a nice long ball forward, hope for a bit of magic from Torres or Gerrard, and maybe get it. If they get it, then will defend and counter-attack to the end.

Of course the caliber of the opposition matters.

I'm a big fan of Tevez and i honestly want him to do well, but dont tell me he's been outstanding this season.

Does Chelsea count? We've only played two quality teams this year and he's scored against one of them so...
With Rooney, Tevez and Rooney have been an outstanding partnership this year. Together they have been incredible.

An Citeog

Call_me_al wrote: »

Hey i think ronaldo is a top class player, even had an argument with dunphy when i told him so , and i hope that first part isnt aimed at me as I haven't said a bad word about the fella or decided any of his performances don't count.

I really should have said arguing with united fans. Anyway i did say most as I don't mind a reasonable argument, which some utd fans make, where the goalposts arent moved every 5 mins. For some reason these types of arguments happen with the only united supporter i'm friends with too. Don't mean to paint you all with the same brush!

Nah, wasn't aimed at you. It was just a general rant about the "my daddy is bigger than yours" posts.

IrishMike

Torres vs Tevez is a stupid debate.
One is an off the shoulder out and out striker while the other is a link player with bags of flare who can produce a bit of magic to get a goal.
Torres and Saha is a proper comparison.

As for the is Gerrard better than scholes is that also an unfair comparison?
Is scholes vs alonso not a much better comparison?
Oh and why is Alonso not in any of these dream teams ?
I know he is injured but then again so is scholes.

Break finished, girls ye may continue fighting ......

Dont be at yourself

There's no doubt that the Liverpool fans and players will be a lot more disappointed if they lose it than Man Utds'. With the pressure on Rafa, the blip at the weekend, the need to keep up the pace on Arsenal, our poor form against the top 4, the fact that it's at home... it really is a must-win game for Liverpool.

As for who will win it? Flip a coin. There's a thousand and one variables, not least of all Rafa's line-up. There's nothing between the two teams - both have tight defences, and both teams boast some of the best attackers in Europe.

I'll be sick if O Shea gets the winner though.

Mr.Nice Guy

Liverpool will lose 2-0. When the going gets tough Liverpool crumble. Man Utd will overwhelm them physically and creatively and will prove too much to handle.

There is a top tier in the Premiership and unfortunately for Liverpool they aren't in it. They are a glorified cup team with a lot of luck and that doesn't cut it in the Premiership.

2-0 to United. Easy money.

oobydooby

This game is always tough to call. I remember back in the good old days, Manchester United used to frequently beat Liverpool. Again in the 90s the Spice Boys often lifted their game to beat Manchester. In the last three years, despite being European Champions and runners-up Liverpool have failed to beat Manchester United. I won't be betting on it.

However, this is the first instance in my lifetime that both teams are very good at the same time. The dream 11 argument is a false one, fans are naturally going to support their team's players. For instance Alonso is IMHO Liverpool's best player. Is he better than Scholes, I would say so. The facts suggest otherwise. It should be a cracker. I hope Liverpool win 'cos I'm a fan but it would also make the EPL much more exciting this year.

_blank_

PHB wrote: »

With Rooney, Tevez and Rooney have been an outstanding partnership this year. Together they have been incredible.

Yeah, but there's only one Rooney.

Mitch Connor

oobydooby wrote: »

This game is always tough to call. I remember back in the good old days, Manchester United used to frequently beat Liverpool. Again in the 90s the Spice Boys often lifted their game to beat Manchester. In the last three years, despite being European Champions and runners-up Liverpool have failed to beat Manchester United. I won't be betting on it.

However, this is the first instance in my lifetime that both teams are very good at the same time. The dream 11 argument is a false one, fans are naturally going to support their team's players. For instance Alonso is IMHO Liverpool's best player. Is he better than Scholes, I would say so. The facts suggest otherwise. It should be a cracker. I hope Liverpool win 'cos I'm a fan but it would also make the EPL much more exciting this year.

keeping my united hat off for a second, wins for Chelsea and Liverpool this weekend would be best for the league in general terms, wins for United and Arsenal would certainly not make it a two horse race, but it would open a small bit of ground over the crucial december period.

Of the 4 teams, I think Arsenal need the win the most. I know they are top of the league so mathematically they don't HAVE to win; but i think their recent results and, more importantly, performances have been poor (albeit without their top players) and another loss could really set them back in terms of momentum and confidence, while a win would galvinise them again. Liverpool would be the next team most in need of a win imo, with Rafa having his meeting with the owners, he position will be strengthened or weaked by what happens; and a defeat could get Liverpool thinking that again it is not their year, while a win would be a massive confidence boost and instill a massive amount of belief in the squad.

I think both United and Chelsea would take draws quite happily this weekend, not sure what the reaction to a loss would be though. Chelsea could be a bit more fragile, with Drogba potentially out for a couple of months this weekends game could show if there is enough about the team without him in it.

IrishMike

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Liverpool will lose 2-0. When the going gets tough Liverpool crumble.

Good point!
The fact of all the famous wins they have had over the past 3 years when
the odds were completely stacked against them should of course be
completely ignored. Point well made !!

Man Utd will overwhelm them physically and creatively and will prove too much to handle.

Liverpool have the strongest central midfield in the premiership and the second best defense. Who will overwhelm who?
You have obviously never seen lucas, mascherano or sissoko play.
As a unit liverpool are the best defensive team in the premiership since
fat sam left bolton.

There is a top tier in the Premiership and unfortunately for Liverpool they aren't in it. They are a glorified cup team with a lot of luck and that doesn't cut it in the Premiership.

The top tier must be coming either first or second so if thats the case?
By that same logic then arsenal must also not be in the top tier.
Pity as on their day they are the best side in Europe.
Might email Wenger and break the bad news that being a top 4 side no
longer qualifies as being in the top tier of the premiership.

Do us all a favour Mr Nice Guy and stop trolling or you will get banned.

prendy

jesus people talk a lot of utter s**te wen it comes to liverpool man u.
ye honestly sound like a bunch of 12 year olds...my teams better than yours etc.
if your all gonna talk about the match fine but leave the childish crap for the playground.

Jazzy

its on

Killme00

If Carragher had been booked against Reading as he should have been then Liverpool would be happy to go for a draw in this game. A boring defenisve draw and then whine about how you dominated possesion without ever venturing forward.

~Rebel~

And the childishness returns.

Sunday is about 2 very good teams which on the day could easily go either way.

It will probably be a tight affair and these things often end with an unexpected scorer, but really anything could happen. Should be an interesting contest, I just hope Liverpool go out with the right formation and 11 players (whatever that may be).

Lex Luthor

whatawaster wrote: »

What a midfield Brazil are going to have though. It's been one of their weaknesses for years.

didn't they say the same about Frances attacking qualities a while ago with Messers Le Tallec & Pongolle

An Citeog

DesF wrote: »

Yeah, but there's only one Rooney.

I think he meant that Tevez has played very well with Rooney but hasn't been as good without him.

An Citeog

Lex Luthor wrote: »

didn't they say the same about Frances attacking qualities a while ago with Messers Le Tallec & Pongolle

Think that was just Liverpool fans! I haven't seen much of Lucas but I've seen enough of Anderson to know that he's the real deal (was going to say special but I didn't want to leave that one open for Liverpool fans! ).

Mr_Roger_Bongos

Unearthly wrote: »

Draw written all over it.

Unless John O'Shea plays, bycicle kick 40 yards out 1-0 Man Utd

LOL! :D

StickyMcGinty

PHB wrote: »

Does Chelsea count? We've only played two quality teams this year and he's scored against one of them so...
With Rooney, Tevez and Rooney have been an outstanding partnership this year. Together they have been incredible.

oh this was the chelsea game where Mourinho had just been sacked and Obi was sent off after 30 mins? I havnt seen that poor a chelsea side playing since the Ken Bates days

Tevez' other PL goals were against the likes of Wigan, Middlesboro (first win last week) and Derby. so dont give me this BS about him being outstanding this season he's not near his top form, if Rooney gets injured united will strugle up front. Saha and Tevez looked terrible together in the Fulham game

Hobart

Christ, what a bucket of sh1t this thread is. I'm just waiting for the "My ds is bigger than your da..." comments to kick off.

kaimera

Hobart wrote: »

Christ, what a bucket of sh1t this thread is. I'm just waiting for the "My ds is bigger than your da..." comments to kick off.

Well my DS IS bigger...

Mitch Connor

Hobart wrote: »

Christ, what a bucket of sh1t this thread is. I'm just waiting for the "My ds is bigger than your da..." comments to kick off.

that would be one tiny dad....

ButcherOfNog

I have no idea what the result will be, can't even guess. It will be a good gauge of both teams premiership hopes as long as no major injuries or sendings off ruin the game. Liverpool will need to keep Ronaldo and Rooney out of the game, if Rooney drop's off the front that'll make it easy enough for Masc to pick him up. Not too worried about Tevez, he can cause problems but is more likely to miss than score from the oppertunites he gets. Shutting down Rooney and Ronaldo will limit his chances.

Man UTD need to stop Gerrard linking up with Torres, if they do that then it'll be difficult for Liverpool.

Both teams will have forward players with real pace, it could be a very exciting game

I also think Arsenal will lose points against Chelsea, so the chance to close the gap will be there for the taking.

IrishMike

kaimera wrote: »

Well my DS IS bigger...

Damn my Ds Lite
*me waves fist angrily in the air!!!!!!

StickyMcGinty

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/7134117.stm wrote:

Manchester United striker Wayne Rooney will captain a side that will be packed with fringe players.

Cristiano Ronaldo, Carlos Tevez, Ryan Giggs and Rio Ferdinand are rested.

Danny Simpson, Jonny Evans, Nani, Darren Fletcher and Louis Saha are brought in, along with young reserves Febian Brandy and Sam Hewson.

Fergie abviously resting the big players for the weekend game. Wish we were in the same position!

The game tonight is really going to affect liverpools form on Sunday, if its a battle then i'd worry about fatigue for sunday. especially with fergie resting the above.

Unearthly

StickyMcGinty wrote: »

Fergie abviously resting the big players for the weekend game. Wish we were in the same position!

The game tonight is really going to effect liverpools form on Sunday, if its a battle then i'd worry about fatigue for sunday. especially with fergie resting the above.

Nah I wouldn't hold that against Liverpool. Tuesday to Sunday is a lot of time to recover and be fit. Only risk I can see happening is morale dying if you go out, but could equally be the opposite if you win.

~Rebel~

Unearthly wrote: »

Nah I wouldn't hold that against Liverpool. Tuesday to Sunday is a lot of time to recover and be fit. Only risk I can see happening is morale dying if you go out, but could equally be the opposite if you win.

agree on both points. 4 full days should be plenty of recovery time for pro's, pshcologically could give an edge to United if pool go out tonight alright though.

herbieflowers

although if Pool win they'll be well fired up and on a buzz!

astrofool

All things being equal, you'd prefer to have Utd's preparation for this game (resting players), I doubt it will matter much come to match time. Where it may make a difference is in subsequent matches.

Dave!

~Rebel~ wrote: »

agree on both points. 4 full days should be plenty of recovery time for pro's, pshcologically could give an edge to United if pool go out tonight alright though.

OR, if they go out tonight, they could be more likely to think "alright lads, we're goin for the league this year!" and destroy us Ya never know

PHB

or they could win, and think they are destined to the CL and not care next weekend This is all guesswork The key thing to note is that if you asked Rafa or Fergie which situation he'd prefer, a 4 day break or a 7 day break, they'd pick the 7 day break each time. Fergie and Carlos are fully focused on the Liverpool game. Rafa can only do that after tonight.

The one thing I would say about the possible effects of tonights game is that if they lose, Rafa's job will be in serious trouble. That will have an effect, whether it be unsettling to the team or make them want to win to save Rafa all the more.

justfortherecor

Another obvious benefit for United in resting players for the last CL group match is that they wont risk any injuries to their major stars (bar Rooney).

Tonight will be a full-blooded fixture and could see some crunch tackles. Players can easily pick up knocks or worse in these types of games.

StickyMcGinty

justfortherecor wrote: »

Tonight will be a full-blooded fixture and could see some crunch tackles. Players can easily pick up knocks or worse in these types of games.

exactly what i'm worried about, i can see the ex-liverpool contingent out to prove a point aswell

Mr.Nice Guy

IrishMike wrote: »

Good point!
The fact of all the famous wins they have had over the past 3 years when
the odds were completely stacked against them should of course be
completely ignored. Point well made !!

Yes Liverpool really lasted the pace and put up brilliant title challenges over the years didn't they? Oh wait...

IrishMike wrote:

Liverpool have the strongest central midfield in the premiership and the second best defense. Who will overwhelm who?
You have obviously never seen lucas, mascherano or sissoko play.
As a unit liverpool are the best defensive team in the premiership since
fat sam left bolton.

What are you smoking? Tell that to the Reading players. They could be crashing out of Europe very soon by the way.

IrishMike wrote:

The top tier must be coming either first or second so if thats the case?
By that same logic then arsenal must also not be in the top tier.
Pity as on their day they are the best side in Europe.
Might email Wenger and break the bad news that being a top 4 side no
longer qualifies as being in the top tier of the premiership.

The top tier are those teams that can actually maintain a title challenge. Liverpool always drift away when the going gets tough. The same will happen this season.

IrishMike wrote:

Do us all a favour Mr Nice Guy and stop trolling or you will get banned.

Yes it's trolling to point out Liverpool's inconsistencies and to make a prediction. :rolleyes:

Will you stop talking utter ****e. I know you're a Liverpool fan and all but still...

2-0 to United. Bank on it.

PHB

Sissoko getting dropped tonight suggests Rafa won't be playing him on Sunday either.
So I think we could see two possible line ups,
a 4-4-2
with Gerrard and Mascherano in the middle
Kewell and Yossi on the wings
Torres and Crouch/Kuyt/Voronin up front

Or a 4-5-1
with Lucas and Mascherano deep lying
Gerrard free role
Kewell and Yossi/Kuyt on the wings
Torres up front

Personally I'd prefer to play against the first, but would be much happier to play in a team with only one defensive midfielder.

homerjay2005

ButcherOfNog wrote: »

I also think Arsenal will lose points against Chelsea, so the chance to close the gap will be there for the taking.

or open a gap as far as united are concerned.

smemon

PHB wrote: »

Personally I'd prefer to play against the first, but would be much happier to play in a team with only one defensive midfielder.

no way will liverpool go with a 4-4-2

they'll want to play the high tempo, highly charged game which gets the crowd going at home.

the only way they can do that is by packing the midfield and winning the ball, moving forward and back as unit.

what may appear to be a 4-4-2 will end up on the day as a 4-5-1, same with Utd.

neither will risk it from kick off...

Melion

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

What are you smoking? Tell that to the Reading players. They could be crashing out of Europe very soon by the way.


2-0 to United. Bank on it.

So because we lost 1 game that means we dont have one of the best defences and centre midfield in the premier league? Surely by that logic Bolton have a better attack than United since they beat them a few weeks ago.

So sure that United win 2-0 put your money where your mouth is.

homerjay2005

dunphy is going on some rant about the liverpool team at the moment -

kuyt - no class
carragher - slow
hypia - too slow
risse - dodgy
yossi - not good enough to be a top class player
kewell - he is finished,no threat will make no telling contribution to this game.

wonder will he be made eat his words, especially about kewell.

herbieflowers

Ah Dunphy and his Pool rants...remember the one last season or the season before?

Kewell: too slow
Cisse: the only one who thinks he worth xmillion is his mother

etc!

DaBreno

homerjay2005 wrote: »

wonder will he be made eat his words

Eamon has eaten his words so many times he could start a new diet craze.

But we shouldnt mock the afflicted.

PHB

I agree with 5 of 6 of those comments, think one is accurate but irrelevent (Carragher. Terry has no pace either, but he gets by), and one is downright silly (Kewell). ALso Yossi isn't gona be a great player, but not every player in your squad is gona be.

That said, I don't think Dunphy even thinks these things. He's just slating Liverpool so United fans will go, hehe, this is entertaining. He'll do the same thing to Ronaldo tomorrow.

homerjay2005

well, according to dunphy now, only 2 players would make the united or arsenal or chelsea team, gerrard and torres. and to think, some people had 6 on their united/pool team yesterday.

Melion

homerjay2005 wrote: »

well, according to dunphy now, only 2 players would make the united or arsenal or chelsea team, gerrard and torres. and to think, some people had 6 on their united/pool team yesterday.

Well to be honest, he's a muppet who thinks Rafa signed harry kewell.

Ruskie4Rent

Melion wrote: »

Well to be honest, he's a muppet who thinks Rafa signed harry kewell.

He never said that. He was talking about the players that rafa has signed and added that to the fact that he's still playing kewell who is, in his opinion,not very good.

The Cheyrou thing is unforgivable though. Do some decent research!!