Liverpool v Man Utd - Sunday 16th December

eirebhoy

Mr Alan wrote: »

Only 1/3 through the season and gerrard has 11 goals and 14 assists from 20 starts + 2 sub appearances. you really have made a fool out of yourself.

8 assists, no? Still excellent stats.

Mr Alan

the stats i posted were in the liverpool thread, far as i am aware they are accurate, for all comps. even if i am wrong though and its 8, thats still super and roars post was a sham.

Tusky

eirebhoy wrote: »

8 assists, no? Still excellent stats.

14 assists in all comps I believe.

p.s Liverpool is way cooler than Utd.

eirebhoy

Tusky wrote: »

14 assists in all comps I believe.

Fantasy football have it as 6 in the PL, 2 in the CL.

Jazzy

Mr Alan wrote: »

wat ya mean? why would i want to "up" our image? I've lost ya

the tit-for-tat "we have won more then you" followed by "yeah well wat have you won recently" sorta stuff. we can all count trophies but they matter nowt come sunday

Mr Alan

Jazzy wrote: »

the tit-for-tat "we have won more then you" followed by "yeah well wat have you won recently" sorta stuff. we can all count trophies but they matter nowt come sunday

ok cool get ya now, just when i read a post as full of stupid points as Roars, i do find it rather difficult not to point out the stupidity.

but i get your point.

although i thought considering this is the run up to the manc game i have been very well behaved

Necronomicon

Anyone remember the post-match thread from the Old Trafford game when Rio got the winner a couple of seasons ago? Must've broken a record for bannings.

By the looks of things, we're heading down the same route

LostinBlanch

Unearthly wrote: »

Oh btw, did I forget to mention Man Utd fans have bigger dads than Liverpool fans dads?

I concur.

It's true btw :cool:

PiE

By the looks of things, we're heading down the same route

Probably wouldn't be such a bad thing.

FatherTed

In all reality it is just another game in a 38 game season. United's game last week against Derby was just as important as was Liverpool's game with Reading. It is 3 points. Even if Liverpool beat Man Utd on Sunday I still dont think they will win the league. What good is beating Man Utd this week when next week they could lose? And the same goes for Man Utd.

Having said that, I don't see United losing as long as they keep Torres in check. He has the speed to beat Vidic (not Ferdinand though). If Liverpool are able to get them isolated e.g. if Evra goes on the attack and Torres drifts over to United's left, then it could work. Other than that Liverpool don't have any other match winners except maybe Gerrard who will be kept quiet by Hargreaves. United have Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez who could be the difference. Probably will end up in a 1-1 draw.

PHB

PiE wrote: »

I agree, Benitez should have been sold to Chelsea years ago. His pitch-sauntering is deplorable.

lol

That said, I think this is a better game for Liverpool than it is for United. United win and they go 9 points clear of Liverpool. Granted its with a game in hand, but that's still a significant difference. United lose and they are still just neck and neck. The game is always more important for the team chasing, which is why it's a bigger game for Chelsea than it is for Arsenal.

Jazzy

Mr Alan wrote: »

although i thought considering this is the run up to the manc game i have been very well behaved

spose, credit where its due

Zapp Brannigan

FatherTed wrote: »

He has the speed to beat Vidic (not Ferdinand though).

Please! The only Utd defender that would be near Torres' speed would be Evra. Over a few yards Torres has the pace and strength to see off Rio and Vidic. Just like how Rooney and prolly Tevez could have Carra and Sami.

PHB

Rooney easily has Carragher and Sami, Tevez is about as fast as Carragher I'd say. Indeed Liverpool's defence is seriously slow in comparison to all of Uniteds attack. Anderson and Ronaldo have electric pace, and Giggs isn't a slouch either.
You underestimate Ferdinand's pace.

Zapp Brannigan

PHB wrote: »

You underestimate Ferdinand's pace.

Maybe but I don't see him catching Torres. Anderson has electric pace? I must say I've not seen it. Anytime I have seen him, which hasn't been too often I'll admit, I've always seen him as a 'lazy' player. As in he makes killer passes and never really has to bust a gut running. Sort of like an Alonso. I must be wrong so?

PHB

have a look at this video for his pace:

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=p52xQ0n0WpY

Zapp Brannigan

Fast, aye. But the player in that video and the Anderson I see at Utd. look completely different! Is Ferguson holding him back from doing all that or is it just settling in?

Tusky

Torres has a bigger willy than Anderson.

Zapp Brannigan

Tusky wrote: »

Torres has a bigger willy than Anderson.

Ah now c'mon Anderson is black, Torres doesn't have a chance

An Citeog

Zapp Brannigan wrote: »

Maybe but I don't see him catching Torres. Anderson has electric pace? I must say I've not seen it. Anytime I have seen him, which hasn't been too often I'll admit, I've always seen him as a 'lazy' player. As in he makes killer passes and never really has to bust a gut running. Sort of like an Alonso. I must be wrong so?

People were accusing Anderson of being lazy when he first joined United but in reality, he's been anything but. He busts his gut to win every ball and always makes himself available for the pass. He hasn't shown some of the silky skills from those youtube videos but what he has shown has been far more impressive. He could do with working on his shooting though!

PS. I posted a video of Anderson in action against Blackburn around page 6/7 of this thread. Not bad for a 19 year old in his first season in the Premiership!

kida

An Citeog wrote: »

People were accusing Anderson of being lazy when he first joined United but in reality, he's been anything but. He busts his gut to win every ball and always makes himself available for the pass. He hasn't shown some of the silky skills from those youtube videos but what he has shown has been far more impressive. He could do with working on his shooting though!

PS. I posted a video of Anderson in action against Blackburn around page 6/7 of this thread. Not bad for a 19 year old in his first season in the Premiership!

According to Utd sites Ferdinand and Sylvestre are the quickest over 50 Metres. Just to show how some players can be deceptively quick. Pallister used to beat Giggs and Kanchelskis in 100M sprints.

kida

Benitez spouting crap again about transfers - you would think he would at least get his facts correct. Utd have not spent 70M(Nani and Andersons fees are performance related and were very little up front) and Utd have received more money in.(Rossi,Smith,Richardson,Heinze = 27.6M)

There's a misunderstanding when people speak of the money Liverpool have spent, as between what we have spent and recovered we're at a similar level to those at the top, but not the biggest sides," Benitez told Thursday's sports daily AS.

"Manchester United have spent 70 million pounds ($143 million) (this year) when we have spent 40 something and recovered 26.

http://football.uk.reuters.com/uk/news/L13696859.php

PHB

I think his point was, people are putting unfair pressure on Benetiz after Liverpool spent money. This is unfair when you consider the fact that United have spent the same amount of money this summer.

kida

PHB wrote: »

I think his point was, people are putting unfair pressure on Benetiz after Liverpool spent money. This is unfair when you consider the fact that United have spent the same amount of money this summer.

whatever his point his facts were way off

~Rebel~

kida wrote:

whatever his point his facts were way off

In fairness though, id imagine pretty much every transfer now is performance related, its just easier to say the likely final overall sum then go adding on the relevent zero's when he's broken another pay barrier (20goals, extra 5mill type of thing). I would also say every transfer now is based on installments so when both are taken into account, it would take a team of statisticians to keep someone up to date so they always keep their "facts right" when speaking candidly in the public forum.

And anyway, his point stands. The goalposts haven't really been shifted when both teams spent money, the bar has just been raised overall. You have to spend just to keep up, let alone catch up.


<EDIT>

On Gerrards record, its 11goals 10 assists according to here;
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/stats?id=7935&cc=5739
with 6prem assists, 2 CL assists and 2 Carling cup assists.

kida

~Rebel~ wrote: »

In fairness though, id imagine pretty much every transfer now is performance related, its just easier to say the likely final overall sum then go adding on the relevent zero's when he's broken another pay barrier (20goals, extra 5mill type of thing). I would also say every transfer now is based on installments so when both are taken into account, it would take a team of statisticians to keep someone up to date so they always keep their "facts right" when speaking candidly in the public forum.

And anyway, his point stands. The goalposts haven't really been shifted when both teams spent money, the bar has just been raised overall. You have to spend just to keep up, let alone catch up.

He said Utd spent 70M - that is blatant lies - 17M on Hargreaves - so hes saying they spent 53M on Anderson and Nani. Don't think so.

Why exclude the money Utd received - it was actually more than Liverpool received.

Melion

kida wrote: »

He said Utd spent 70M - that is blatant lies - 17M on Hargreaves - so hes saying they spent 53M on Anderson and Nani. Don't think so.

Why exclude the money Utd received - it was actually more than Liverpool received.

Id imagine they paid a bit of money for Tevez aswell

An Citeog

Melion wrote: »

Id imagine they paid a bit of money for Tevez aswell

The reported figure is £4million a year. What about Liverpools transfers? Torres, Babel, Benayoun, Lucas, Mascherano (I'm sure there's a nominal loan fee for him aswell) surely adds up to more than £40million.

Melion

An Citeog wrote: »

The reported figure is £4million a year. What about Liverpools transfers? Torres, Babel, Benayoun, Lucas, Mascherano (I'm sure there's a nominal loan fee for him aswell) surely adds up to more than £40million.

20m for torres, 11m for babel, 4m??? for Benayoun, 8m for Lucas and whatever for masch

~Rebel~

It all comes down to how you look at it. You can look at Tevez as being only a loan that they won't buy (which is probably not the case) or look at it as the loan fee (2 to 4 million varying with reports) as a first installment of a pretty normal deal with the full price taking them up towards the 70mill figure (its prob similer to masch's but a bit more due to his succes at WestHam so at a guess a cost of 20m plus the loan fee.). The total outlay of their players brought in comes to around that mark.Hargreaves 17, Nani+Anderson 30, Tevez 18m+4loan fee = 69m) Im sure you couldn't possibly have a problem with him not being exactly on the dot with his figure when speaking very candidly to a spanish reporter.

As regards Liverpools transfers, Lucas 5m, Torres 20, Babel 11, Benayoun 3ish so comes to around the 39mill mark. Regardless which way you look at Masch, he was either signed last season or next year, not the summer.


Again, you're kind of missing his point, your nitpicking over a number and whats represented by that number, rather then seeing that he's saying Pool spent money, but aren't the only ones so dont have any divine right to win the title because of the financial outlay. ManU weren't the only team he referenced, also mentioned West Ham, Villa, City, Spurs, Pompy etc. A lot of teams spent more money then usual this summer, effectively everyone has shifted up a level so we're all still relatively the same, with some shifting of the pack.

kida

~Rebel~ wrote: »

It all comes down to how you look at it. You can look at Tevez as being only a loan that they won't buy (which is probably not the case) or look at it as the loan fee (2 to 4 million varying with reports) as a first installment of a pretty normal deal with the full price taking them up towards the 70mill figure. The total outlay of their players brought in comes to around that mark. Im sure you couldn't possibly have a problem with him not being exactly on the dot with his figure when speaking very candidly to a spanish reporter.

As regards Liverpools transfers, Lucas 5m, Torres 20, Babel 11, Benayoun 3ish so comes to around the 39mill mark. Regardless which way you look at Masch, he was either signed last season or next year, not the summer.


Again, you're kind of missing his point, your nitpicking over a number and whats represented by that number, rather then seeing that he's saying Pool spent money, but aren't the other ones so dont have any divine right to win the title because of the financial outlay. ManU weren't the only team he referenced, also mentioned West Ham, Villa, City, Spurs, Pompy etc. A lot of teams spent more money then usual this summer, effectively everyone has shifted up a level so we're all still relatively the same, with some shifting of the pack.

I read it as we cannot win yet as I still haven't been able to spend enough - look at what Utd have spent - its a lot more than us.

~Rebel~

kida wrote:

I read it as we cannot win yet as I still haven't been able to spend enough - look at what Utd have spent - its a lot more than us.

From his interview, the very next line to what you're talking about;

RAFA wrote:

"That’s why I say that a lot of people think that we must win the title because we’ve spent so much money, when there are other teams like Chelsea, United, or West Ham, Newcastle or Aston Villa that have also spend a lot of money, that’s why nobody has any guarantees to win the title."

Looks pretty clear to me. As he exactly says, everyone's spent a lot of money, noone is guaranteed the title because of it.

PHB

look at what Utd have spent - its a lot more than us.

This summer yes, in terms of net spend since Rafa joined, United are ahead by like 4/5 million.
That said, Rafas point is a fair one. But at the same time, he doesn't realise that the media aren't saying that Liverpool should be winning titles because they spent more money, they are saying liverpool should be winning titles because they spent that money. That expectation was always on United, and always has been. When United don't win the title, the season is a failure. Liverpool spending this much money now means that when they don't win the title, their season should also be viewed as a failure.

Liverpools Net Spend this year:
25 million
Uniteds Net Spend this year:
29 million

Not including Tevez's transfer. Then again, the year before
United's Net Spend: 6 million
Liverpools Net Spend: 19.5 million

Not including Mascherano.

astrofool

I was just thinking the other day, are Liverpool that much better off than under Houllier? Had it not been for the CL win (with Houllier's players), Rafa's tenure has been worse than Houllier. The football hasn't got any more exciting (being described as an ugly Mourinho-Chelsea), and the spending is still a lot, and they haven't threatened in the league with Rafa, whereas under Houllier they were top of the league with points to spare around the time Houllier was taken ill. And at that, Gerrard and Torres are still described as the only match winners/world class players in the team. (Gerrard/Owen in Houllier's time)

Of course, Liverpool usually beat United when United are in the ascendancy, + they should expect to win it at Anfield. A draw is a good result for Utd, a loss is not an awful one, for Liverpool, anything less than a win is a disaster.

Mitch Connor

PHB wrote: »

This summer yes, in terms of net spend since Rafa joined, United are ahead by like 4/5 million.
That said, Rafas point is a fair one. But at the same time, he doesn't realise that the media aren't saying that Liverpool should be winning titles because they spent more money, they are saying liverpool should be winning titles because they spent that money. That expectation was always on United, and always has been. When United don't win the title, the season is a failure. Liverpool spending this much money now means that when they don't win the title, their season should also be viewed as a failure.

Liverpools Net Spend this year:
25 million
Uniteds Net Spend this year:
29 million

Not including Tevez's transfer. Then again, the year before
United's Net Spend: 6 million
Liverpools Net Spend: 19.5 million

Not including Mascherano.

didn't United make a profit the previousl season with money in for Ruud and Obi Mikel (and possibly someone else) with Carrick the only purchase?

PHB

The season before the net spend was:
United: 150,000
Liverpool: 17.6 million

That said, the season before that was

United: 47 million
Liverpool: 8.5 million

It evens out. The difference is Fergie hasn't replaced his entire squad while Rafa pretty much has.

smemon

astrofool wrote: »

A draw is a good result for Utd, a loss is not an awful one, for Liverpool, anything less than a win is a disaster.

Well that's of course assuming liverpool believe they can win the title

liverpool have won 3, drawn 4 at home this season.. not including european ties

won at home
bolton
fulham
derby

drawn at home
arsenal
chelsea
spurs
birmingham

looking at those stats, it looks like liverpool can win the games they're expected to win, but can't grind out results in the glamour ties...

mike65

Birmingham is now a glamour tie? :eek: You can flush your stats down the bog for games like this.

Mike.

Tusky

astrofool wrote: »

I was just thinking the other day, are Liverpool that much better off than under Houllier? Had it not been for the CL win (with Houllier's players), Rafa's tenure has been worse than Houllier. The football hasn't got any more exciting (being described as an ugly Mourinho-Chelsea), and the spending is still a lot, and they haven't threatened in the league with Rafa, whereas under Houllier they were top of the league with points to spare around the time Houllier was taken ill. And at that, Gerrard and Torres are still described as the only match winners/world class players in the team. (Gerrard/Owen in Houllier's time)

Of course, Liverpool usually beat United when United are in the ascendancy, + they should expect to win it at Anfield. A draw is a good result for Utd, a loss is not an awful one, for Liverpool, anything less than a win is a disaster.

Well you have lived up to the second part of your username anyway!

I think the Liverpool squad is the best that it has been in a long long time. I dont really understand peoples obsession with he word 'world class' because it has no set definition. Most people who use it probably only watch the premiership so I dont know how they seem to have such a knowledge of 'world football'.

Anyway Liverpools squad. Reina, Agger, Carragher, Alonso, Mascherano, Gerrard, Torres. That is about as good a spine as you can have in a team. I wont call them world class players because I dont know what it means...but they are all very very good. Not only that, they are mostly young & hardworking as well.

With the likes of Lucas & Babel Rafa has brought in real potential. The sky is the limit for those two in my opinion and only time will tell how good they can be.

What the hell is a match winner anyway ? Rafa has always said that he wants the goals to spread around the team as it makes it harder to mark one or two players out of the game and thats exactly what seems to be happening this season. Liverpool have 2 players in the top 4 top scorers list (Torres, Gerrard). The rest of the team has been chipping in with lots of goals as well.

Torres - 12
Gerrard - 11
Kuyt - 7
Babel - 6
Benayoun - 5
Voronin/Crouch - 4
Alonso - 2
Sissoko - 1

How many 'match winners' do Chelsea, Arsenal or Utd have anyway ? In the top 10 scoreres so far this season, Liverpool have 2 players, Arsenal have 2, Utd have 1 & Chelsea have 1.

herbieflowers

I think Liverpool have definitely improved but most fans would like them to mount a serious PL challenge, rid themselves of the tag 'glorified cup specialists'. This season they've brought in quality, although I think without Torres they're a very average side. I think they're on the right road but these things take time, I mean, it took Fergie years before he starting winning trophies regularly and unquestionably football (the transfer market, player power, general quality of theams) has improved vastly

Unearthly

I think Liverpool have a much better squad than Houlliers.

Gerrard is a far better player than he was, Torres looks much better than Owen. Then you have the likes of Agger instead of Henchoz, Carragher improved etc

The reason why I don't think they will win the premiership is because of a major flaw in Benitez. The guy has the ability to do extremely well in every competition but all to often he experiements with formations and players and literally throws away points.

Before the Reading game Liverpool had a decent run going, scoring plenty. So what does he do? Drops the wingers and puts Crouch and Voronin out wide. Ridiculous. He didn't even get to rest key players so the mind boggles. He has made bizzare decisions for games and thrown away points since he joined Liverpool. I don't think he will learn so I don't think Liverpool will win the league with him.

herbieflowers

You'd have to question decisions like that...I mean, no matter what league you play in, no matter how many competitions your team is involved in, you desire a settled team that gels well...Benitez seems intent on doing the opposite!

Mitch Connor

Unearthly wrote: »

I think Liverpool have a much better squad than Houlliers.

Gerrard is a far better player than he was, Torres looks much better than Owen. Then you have the likes of Agger instead of Henchoz, Carragher improved etc

The reason why I don't think they will win the premiership is because of a major flaw in Benitez. The guy has the ability to do extremely well in every competition but all to often he experiements with formations and players and literally throws away points.

Before the Reading game Liverpool had a decent run going, scoring plenty. So what does he do? Drops the wingers and puts Crouch and Voronin out wide. Ridiculous. He didn't even get to rest key players so the mind boggles. He has made bizzare decisions for games and thrown away points since he joined Liverpool. I don't think he will learn so I don't think Liverpool will win the league with him.

[Contraversial]
I think Gerrard is worse now

He used to be an all round midfielder, a real box to box player - seemed to be the English version of Roy Keane, with better technique and shooting skills, in the making. Now he as an AM without the ability to really fit into a central birth in a 442 formation. The defensive side of his game has almost gone, apart from little camios of effort.

I don't think his gained attacking talents make up from the skill set he appears to have lost.
[/Contraversial]

Mitch Connor

herbieflowers wrote: »

You'd have to question decisions like that...I mean, no matter what league you play in, no matter how many competitions your team is involved in, you desire a settled team that gels well...Benitez seems intent on doing the opposite!

an internet buddy worked out the reasoning for this the other day. It is so simple in it genius.

Rafa rotates SO much so that the local theives have no idea who will be playing, and so don't know whose house will be free for burglary!

How we didn't see it before I don't know!

herbieflowers

[contorversial] we all know Gerrard is an overrated waste of space anyway who makes ridiuculous Hollywood passes, eh PHB?! [contorversial]

Tauren wrote: »

an internet buddy worked out the reasoning for this the other day. It is so simple in it genius.

Rafa rotates SO much so that the local theives have no idea who will be playing, and so don't know whose house will be free for burglary!

How we didn't see it before I don't know!

makes sense! hehe

astrofool

Tusky wrote: »

Well you have lived up to the second part of your username anyway!

I think the Liverpool squad is the best that it has been in a long long time. I dont really understand peoples obsession with he word 'world class' because it has no set definition. Most people who use it probably only watch the premiership so I dont know how they seem to have such a knowledge of 'world football'.

Anyway Liverpools squad. Reina, Agger, Carragher, Alonso, Mascherano, Gerrard, Torres. That is about as good a spine as you can have in a team. I wont call them world class players because I dont know what it means...but they are all very very good. Not only that, they are mostly young & hardworking as well.

With the likes of Lucas & Babel Rafa has brought in real potential. The sky is the limit for those two in my opinion and only time will tell how good they can be.

What the hell is a match winner anyway ? Rafa has always said that he wants the goals to spread around the team as it makes it harder to mark one or two players out of the game and thats exactly what seems to be happening this season. Liverpool have 2 players in the top 4 top scorers list (Torres, Gerrard). The rest of the team has been chipping in with lots of goals as well.

Torres - 12
Gerrard - 11
Kuyt - 7
Babel - 6
Benayoun - 5
Voronin/Crouch - 4
Alonso - 2
Sissoko - 1

How many 'match winners' do Chelsea, Arsenal or Utd have anyway ? In the top 10 scoreres so far this season, Liverpool have 2 players, Arsenal have 2, Utd have 1 & Chelsea have 1.

But the results haven't improved greatly since Houllier's time and it's still ugly destructive football, which seemed to be the reason to drive Houllier out (ye of short memories). Now it's a case of some success at any cost.

PiE

The reason for Houllier being "driven out" wasn't so much the ugly football - it was because the team was going nowhere. There were no indications of improvement, no signs of progress.

Rafa had a lot to do when he came in - even ignoring the CL runs, the club as a whole has improved hugely from what it was under Ged. Most importantly, Rafa broke up the dressing room cliques and took responsibility for pretty much the running of the entire club.

herbieflowers

what about that "treble" he won?! Pool fans seemed pretty pleased with that achievement!

LostinBlanch

What?

the Mickey Mouse Treble?

Melion

3 trophies is a treble, just to let you know.