Liverpool v Man Utd - Sunday 16th December

Dont be at yourself

I think Gerrard is worse now

He used to be an all round midfielder, a real box to box player - seemed to be the English version of Roy Keane, with better technique and shooting skills, in the making. Now he as an AM without the ability to really fit into a central birth in a 442 formation. The defensive side of his game has almost gone, apart from little camios of effort.

I don't think his gained attacking talents make up from the skill set he appears to have lost.

He hasn't lost those skills, he's just not used in the same role anymore. When Rafa deploys him deeper, he's still a fantastic ball-winner. Rafa doesn't heap the responsibilities of the whole team on one player - he'll either give him a license to go forward, or he'll make sure he breaks up play. Despite what's often said, Liverpool are not a one-man team, nor built around Gerrard.

As for whoever said that Liverpool haven't progressed under Houllier... I don't even know where to start.

He replaced an error-prone Dudek with a top class young keeper in Reina.

Our defence under Houllier was normally Finnan-Henchoz-Hyppia-Traore. Rafa molded Carra into one of the best centre-backs in the league, and brought in real class and potential in Agger, Aurelio and Arbeloa.

Our midfield boasted the likes of Biscan, Smicer and Diouf. Under Rafa, we now have inarguably one of the very finest central midfields in the world, with more talent on the wings too.

Up front under Houllier we had Owen, Baros and he left Rafa a nice welcome gift in Ciise. Selling Owen has proven to be some of the shrewdest pieces of business Rafa has done, and in signing Torres we look to have the best striker at the club since Fowler in his prime.

That he managed to overhaul almost the entire team (how many first team players are Houlliers'? Carra, Gerrard, Kewell, Riise, Hyppia...) on a comparative shoe-string, while also featuring in 2 CL finals, winning one, as well as an FA Cup, and on the form so far, dramatically closing the gap on the top.

I have a lot of time for Houllier. He brought the club on leaps and bounds, and we should all be thankful to him for that. However, the club was clearly stagnating under him, and changing to Rafa is the best thing that could have happened to us, in my opinion.

Tusky

astrofool wrote: »

But the results haven't improved greatly since Houllier's time and it's still ugly destructive football, which seemed to be the reason to drive Houllier out (ye of short memories). Now it's a case of some success at any cost.

Ugly destructive football ? We have scored 16 in the last 3 games in the champions league! We broke the all time European record for goals scored in one game only a month ago. We have scored more goals in europe than any other side (18) with Arsenal & Seville both on 14.

With 27 goals scored in the premier league, only 2 less than utd (and have scored more than utd if you include all comps) Its pretty silly and completely untrue to say we have been playing boring destructive football. In the past, Rafa has employed that tactic but this season our passing game has improved dramatically and we are playing lots of good stuff.

Also the valuation of Benitez squad now dwarfs that of Houlliers. That says it all really.

Some examples of our boring football.

Liverpool 4 - 0 Toulouse
Liverpool 6 - 0 Derby
Liverpool 3 - 0 Newcastle
Liverpool 8 - 0 Besiktas
Liverpool 4 - 1 Porto
Liverpool 4 - 0 Bolton
Liverpool 4 - 0 Marseille

If you cant see that this squad/first 11 is significantly better there is no hope for you!

---

Reina

Finnan--Carragher--Agger--Arbeloa

---

Mascherano--Alonso

---

Gerrard

Babel

---

Kewell

---

Torres

Subs: (from) Itandje, Aurelio, Hyypia, Lucas, Sissoko, Benayoun, Pennant, Kuyt, Crouch, Voronin

herbieflowers

So it wouldn't be fair to judge Liverpool as a boring side on the basis of the amount of goals they've scored...

LostinBlanch

Just not the treble.

Anyway back on topic. It could be close but I think Utd will do it. Hargreaves and Anderson with Giggs & Ronaldo in midfield and Tevez & Rooney upfront will cause problems for any team IMHO.

herbieflowers

I think Saha should start instead of Tevez

PiE

I too think Saha would cause Liverpool more problems than Tevez.

Tevez is Utd's version of Kuyt - all huff and puff with slightly more end-product.

Mitch Connor

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

He hasn't lost those skills, he's just not used in the same role anymore. When Rafa deploys him deeper, he's still a fantastic ball-winner. Rafa doesn't heap the responsibilities of the whole team on one player - he'll either give him a license to go forward, or he'll make sure he breaks up play. Despite what's often said, Liverpool are not a one-man team, nor built around Gerrard.

I disagree - any time Gerrard is played in a central role with just 1 other midfielder (for england and the odd time for Liverpool) he simply doesn't perform and both sides look worse for it. When he is played centrally both with two players behind him, or knocked out wide right he looks a lot better, because his lack of positional discipline or tracking are not highlighted as badly.

When he broke on to the scene and for a few seasons, he was one of the best central midfielders in the league and could do it all.

He is too 'hollywood' now imo. He could have been so much greater with a little more discipline.

But anyway, i don't want to get into an argument. I'm sure we can both agree that Gerrard is a very different player to the one that we first saw; whether that is better or worse is a matter of opinion i suppose.

Mitch Connor

herbieflowers wrote: »

I think Saha should start instead of Tevez

PiE wrote: »

I too think Saha would cause Liverpool more problems than Tevez.

Tevez is Utd's version of Kuyt - all huff and puff with slightly more end-product.

You are both insane.

Unearthly

PiE wrote: »

I too think Saha would cause Liverpool more problems than Tevez.

Tevez is Utd's version of Kuyt - all huff and puff with slightly more end-product.

:eek:

Tevez is a far more gifted player than Kuyt.

I don't think Saha is good enough to start games anymore. He can do a few damaging things brought on as a sub but Tevez is clearly the choice to have against Liverpool.

semibluff

herbie u must b a pool fan - yeh?

Dont be at yourself

I disagree - any time Gerrard is played in a central role with just 1 other midfielder (for england and the odd time for Liverpool) he simply doesn't perform and both sides look worse for it. When he is played centrally both with two players behind him, or knocked out wide right he looks a lot better, because his lack of positional discipline or tracking are not highlighted as badly.

When he broke on to the scene and for a few seasons, he was one of the best central midfielders in the league and could do it all.

He is too 'hollywood' now imo. He could have been so much greater with a little more discipline.

But anyway, i don't want to get into an argument. I'm sure we can both agree that Gerrard is a very different player to the one that we first saw; whether that is better or worse is a matter of opinion i suppose.

Agreed.

Excellent! A well-reasoned argument backed up with solid points and no childish name-calling or willy-waving. There's hope for this forum yet!

As for Saha to face Liverpool: No chance.

semibluff

PiE wrote: »

Tevez is Utd's version of Kuyt - all huff and puff with slightly more end-product.

tevez - 6 prem league goals
the spanish wonderkid who is in unbelievable form - 6 prem league goals

good job he has slightly more end product. :eek::eek:

An Citeog

herbieflowers wrote: »

I think Saha should start instead of Tevez

I don't think Saha deserves to start. He's had a few opportunities now to prove his worth and stake a claim for a place in the first 11. He hasn't taken them and moreso, hasn't really looked too bothered about it. Rooney and Tevez, on the other hand, were forming a nice little partnership before Rooney's injury and both have the ability and workrate to upset Liverpool. An in form and eager Saha would be ideal to have but he's shown neither of late.

Tusky

Tauren wrote: »

I disagree - any time Gerrard is played in a central role with just 1 other midfielder (for england and the odd time for Liverpool) he simply doesn't perform and both sides look worse for it.

Dont want to get drawn into this again but that is absolute tripe. Alonso has been injured for most of this season and Gerrard has been played centrally in every game with one other midfielder alongside him. His form, apart from a little blip has been outstanding and if he continues as he is, it will be the best season of his career. He has a GREAT game against Marseille only three days ago, alot of which was defensive. Lets not forget he is the 3rd highest scorer on 11 goals and has somewhere between 10-14 assists depending on which site you look at. Again, what you have said, is nonsense.

herbieflowers wrote: »

So it wouldn't be fair to judge Liverpool as a boring side on the basis of the amount of goals they've scored...

Well if you read my post you might also have seen that I was basing it on a better passing game and all round better play. I don't think we have been boring this season at all.

semibluff wrote: »

tevez - 6 prem league goals
the spanish wonderkid who is in unbelievable form - 6 prem league goals

good job he has slightly more end product. :eek::eek:

Well Tevez is on 8 goals and Kuyt is on 7. I do think they are similar players in style but Tevez is much much better. Quicker, more skillful and more creative. I can understand what the guy was saying they, they play a similar game.

Its all well and good comparing league goals because it suits your argument but the overall goals scored paints a different picture. Torres - 12, Tevez - 8. Dont even know why you were bringing Torres into it though ?

IrishMike

Torres is a vastly superior player to Tevez.
Dunno how on earth you are going to argue otherwise semibluff.
He has pace, power, positional sense and can finish with both feet.

herbieflowers

Tusky wrote: »

Well if you read my post you might also have seen that I was basing it on a better passing game and all round better play. I don't think we have been boring this season at all.

I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was just pointing out that Liverpool can't ever seem to win (not literally, well maybe...!) They score goals etc and are still labelled a boring side...?

Tusky

IrishMike wrote: »

Torres is a vastly superior player to Tevez.
Dunno how on earth you are going to argue otherwise semibluff.
He has pace, power, positional sense and can finish with both feet.

I don't even know why they are being compared. I thought the original comparison was Tevez - Kuyt in which Tevez is the clear winner. Just goes to show you the amount of thought that someone here put into their posts.

"FeRDINand is Waaay skILLfuler THan TOrres"

herbieflowers wrote: »

I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was just pointing out that Liverpool can't ever seem to win (not literally, well maybe...!) They score goals etc and are still labelled a boring side...?

Oh right. I thought you were saying that it didn't matter how many goals they scored, they are still boring.

Apologies.

herbieflowers

An Citeog wrote: »

I don't think Saha deserves to start. He's had a few opportunities now to prove his worth and stake a claim for a place in the first 11. He hasn't taken them and moreso, hasn't really looked too bothered about it. Rooney and Tevez, on the other hand, were forming a nice little partnership before Rooney's injury and both have the ability and workrate to upset Liverpool. An in form and eager Saha would be ideal to have but he's shown neither of late.

I was just trying to be inciteful! Change the direction of this thread. The focus should be on the game not the petty squabbles (myself a culpirt!)...

oobydooby

Any update on Alonso? With him playing (I assume he would be match fit if he played - Rafa would not risk him again otherwise) I think Liverpool will be fantastic to watch. Alonso and Torres are the creative spine to the team. Stevie G is a one man team anyway!

For the first time in years the two teams are vying for the top of the table and are pretty equally matched. I would like to see Rafa playing a 4-5-1 with Alonso Mascherano and Gerrard. Torres up front of course. MUFC's attack is better than our defence so Rafa's tactics are going to be key in midfield.

~Rebel~

For Sunday, on current form, i'd prefer to see Saha starting up front over Tevez I think.

LostinBlanch

herbieflowers wrote: »

I was just trying to be inciteful! Change the direction of this thread. The focus should be on the game not the petty squabbles (myself a culpirt!)...

herbieflowers wrote: »

I was just trying to be inciteful!

Troll - inciting trouble like that

Unless you meant insightful of course! Not knocking the spelling just pointing out the two possible meanings.

Anyhoo Tevez knows how to unlock a defence, and assists are a large part of his game. He is an intelligent player with an eye for the telling pass in the final 1/3 of the field and his movement really pisses off defenders.

Right now Saha is someone who has absolutley no confidence and looks like someone who is always going to be second to every ball. Mind you I'd like him to prove me wrong and score a hat trick on Sunday!

Tusky

oobydooby wrote: »

Any update on Alonso? With him playing (I assume he would be match fit if he played - Rafa would not risk him again otherwise) I think Liverpool will be fantastic to watch. Alonso and Torres are the creative spine to the team. Stevie G is a one man team anyway!

For the first time in years the two teams are vying for the top of the table and are pretty equally matched. I would like to see Rafa playing a 4-5-1 with Alonso Mascherano and Gerrard. Torres up front of course. MUFC's attack is better than our defence so Rafa's tactics are going to be key in midfield.

Alonso is fit and should be in the squad.

Melion

Jesus id love if they started Saha, he is awful. Tevez actually looks dangerous on the pitch, especially his link-up play with Rooney.

kryogen

gotta start tevez up front, i believe he was rested tuesday with this in mind anyway, i have lost faith in saha lately (not that i ever had much tbh) i dont think he seems up for the fight for his place,maybe he isnt giving 100% as hes afraid to injury himself again. tevez is a fantastic player, he may not be a natural goalscorer but he is extrememly creative, he plays well with rooney....

Im_No_Superman

kryogen wrote: »

gotta start tevez up front, i believe he was rested tuesday with this in mind anyway, i have lost faith in saha lately (not that i ever had much tbh) i dont think he seems up for the fight for his place,maybe he isnt giving 100% as hes afraid to injury himself again. tevez is a fantastic player, he may not be a natural goalscorer but he is extrememly creative, he plays well with rooney....

Yeah Tevez has to start ahead of Mr Glass or Saha as he is more commonly known! Actually fancy Tevez to score on sunday too.

Mikeyt086

~Rebel~ wrote: »

For Sunday, on current form, i'd prefer to see Saha starting up front over Tevez I think.

Please tell me your taking the piss.

Tevez - 2 goals last week, great player.

Saha - A joke of a player at the moment.

Unearthly

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

Please tell me your taking the piss.

Tevez - 2 goals last week, great player.

Sahs - A joke of a player at the moment.

Rebel is one of the bad guys I believe. IE Liverpool

juanveron45

sissoko and mascherano are very average players to say the least, they are hackers and good at winning the ball but when they have it they are clueless and usually give it back to the opposition especially sissoko.

Look liverpool fans start a rant every year that this is going to be their year but lads ye havent won the league in 17 years and ye are not on a par with us

Ye may win on sunday but by the end of the season ye will be 10 points adrift of us

The big 4 is a myth, there is only the top 3 manutd,arsenal and chelsea for its those teams that have only won the premiership

d22ontour

juanveron45 wrote: »

sissoko and mascherano are very average players to say the least,

Whatever people think of Sissoko and lots of Pool fans think he is rubbish, how you can say Mascherano is an average player is baffling to say the least.He is quality.

~Rebel~

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

Please tell me your taking the piss.

Tevez - 2 goals last week, great player.

Saha - A joke of a player at the moment.

Tusky

juanveron45 wrote: »

sissoko and mascherano are very average players to say the least, they are hackers and good at winning the ball but when they have it they are clueless and usually give it back to the opposition especially sissoko.

Look liverpool fans start a rant every year that this is going to be their year but lads ye havent won the league in 17 years and ye are not on a par with us

Ye may win on sunday but by the end of the season ye will be 10 points adrift of us

The big 4 is a myth, there is only the top 3 manutd,arsenal and chelsea for its those teams that have only won the premiership

Wow what a post. You're on a roll mate. I wouldn't reply but I'm fairly bored.

1) First of all, point me in the direction of the Liverpool fans who have gone on a rant saying 'its going to be our year'. Haven't seen any of that myself. Most seem to think we will challenge this year but havent seen anyone saying 'we are going to win it for sure!'

2) Why have you made that comment about Sissoko and Mascherano ? It seemed to come from nowhere...were they even being discussed in this thread ? As well as being a great player for Liverpool Mascherano is an integral part of the Argentinian national squad and starts pretty much every game. You know the Argentina squad dont you ? They happen to be one of the best in the world. In regards to him being a 'hacker'....I suppose thats all Roy Keane was as well then ?

3) Big 4 is a myth. Dont need to spend too much time on this. Liverpool have finished above Arsenal for the last two seasons.

4) Hopefully this will be your last post on this board as it was painfully idiotic. Cheers.

mike65

The big 4 is a myth, there is only the top 3 manutd,arsenal and chelsea for its those teams that have only won the premiership

Better tell Blackburn

Mike.

Unearthly

mike65 wrote: »

Better tell Leeds and Blackburn

Mike.

Leeds won the old first division not Premiership

mike65

edited! I forgot the year of transition.

Mike.

An Citeog

mike65 wrote: »

Better tell Blackburn

Mike.

Or Everton!

Edit: Meh, Mike's edit ruined it!

Tusky

Unearthly wrote: »

Leeds won the old first division not Premiership

Same thing.

Unearthly

Tusky wrote: »

Same thing.

Name is different. Can't say Leeds won a premiership trophy as they didn't.

juanveron45

Do all ye Liverpool fans know that on mersyside liverpool are the equivalent to rangers and everton to celtic?

~Rebel~

juanveron45 wrote:

Do all ye scum fans know that on mersyside liverpool are the equivalent to rangers and everton to celtic?

classy guy.

d22ontour

I can only imagine the amount of report post icons being clicked lol.Way to get yoreself banned.I am beginning to think DESF AND PHB's thoughts in charter rules thread should be implemented in some way....

JæKæ

Have to be up at 6am for the game here. Wouldnt mind an all day seisuin back in Irlanda.
O'Shea has been passed fit-'pool watch out

JæKæ

juanveron45 wrote: »

Do all ye Liverpool fans know that on mersyside liverpool are the equivalent to rangers and everton to celtic?

I like the interpretation of 'scum' there!

d22ontour

I remember o'Shea coming on for his 1st appearance against the Pool and the scouse were singing ' who teh fookin hell are you ' to him.I reckon they know and ph33r him now.

~Rebel~

JæKæ wrote: »

O'Shea has been passed fit-'pool watch out

Bugger, the secret weapon!

JæKæ

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Bugger, the secret weapon!

****e-I wasn't supposed to give that away was I?

juanveron45

all jokes aside I think oshea would get on liverpools first team ahead of hypia anyway

~Rebel~

juanveron45 wrote: »

all jokes aside I think oshea would get on liverpools first team ahead of hypia anyway

I think he would 1 game in 3. Hypia is still fully capable or doing a great job at the back (just look at our defensive record with him beside carra this year), but he cant be expected to play every week. O Shea, with our dearth of options could be used to rest Hypia, as Hobbs was last week. But O Shea start ahead of Hypia week in, week out? I really, really don't think so.

<edit> Personally i would feel a lot safer seeing Hypia's name beside carra's then O Shea's, though really what we need is someone better then both.

JæKæ

Samwise Hyppia is about 2 years past his 'best before'. His old knees are seizing up

juanveron45

here is my first 11 from united and pool players when all fit

VDS

Neville rio vidic evra

gerard scholes hargreaves ronaldo


rooney torres

Tusky

JæKæ wrote: »

Samwise Hyppia is about 2 years past his 'best before'. His old knees are seizing up

hehe. I actually did laugh at that. Samwise Hyypia! Hyypia had a dodgy spell when Agger first got injured but I have to say, he has been great ever since. Pretty much rock solid. We have one of the best defensive records in the premiership so its a bit of a myth thats hes past it. Shouldn't be playing week in week out though.

juanveron45 = troll. Get back under your bridge.