Islam and Women

Suff

MeditationMom wrote: »

A man who would be a woman's friend for two years without sex and still wait patiently to marry her - is an angel.

Thank you

MeditationMom wrote: »

Unfortunately there are many exceptions to this ideal situation. Not all women and men are young, good, healthy, psychologically balanced, not previously married, of the same religion, etc, etc.

True, these days it is hard to find such a relationship.

WindSock

mmalaka wrote: »

Even in Saudi Arabia u will not see this especially in the main cities

Women are forbidden to drive in Saudi Arabia. Is this true? and if so, why? (no bad Women driving jokes, please)

wes

WindSock wrote: »

Women are forbidden to drive in Saudi Arabia. Is this true? and if so, why? (no bad Women driving jokes, please)

Yes, its is true, Women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia. As for why they aren't, well I have no real idea for there reasons. Its make very little sense even from a hard line religious POV.

Bottle_of_Smoke

WindSock wrote: »

Women are forbidden to drive in Saudi Arabia. Is this true? and if so, why? (no bad Women driving jokes, please)

I *think* it's because driving would suggest they (women) are deviating from their role in society.

oceanclub

mmalaka wrote: »

Islam is not forced by law

Sorry, but incorrect; even in a liberal Muslim country such as Malaysia, a person is not allowed to convert from Islam. For example, see the case of Lina Joy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_Malaysia#Lina_Joy

P.

mmalaka

WindSock wrote: »

Women are forbidden to drive in Saudi Arabia. Is this true? and if so, why? (no bad Women driving jokes, please)

Yes it is true but it is not related to Islam. the strange thing that if u get out from the cities and drive deeply in the desert to the small towns (it is so small to be town) u will find saudi women driving without any problems

PDN

mmalaka wrote: »

Yes it is true but it is not related to Islam. the strange thing that if u get out from the cities and drive deeply in the desert to the small towns (it is so small to be town) u will find saudi women driving without any problems

A friend of mine was working as a nurse in Saudi and I know she was allowed to drive (maybe because she's not a Muslim?).

Trouble was she was in an accident where a guy smashed into her. She had two other nurses in the car with her, but was told by the police that the testimony of one man is counted as the equivalent of that of ten women - so the guy's testimony outranked her and her two (female) witnesses. So she was held responsible for causing the accident.

I would be interested to know if the 10 women to 1 man thing is simply a remnant of some bedouin misogyny in Saudi or is it based on some religious text?

Dave!

normar wrote: »

AN-NISA (WOMEN)

004.011
Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females:

004.034
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).


AL-WAQIA (THE EVENT, THE INEVITABLE)

056.035
We have created (their Companions) of special creation.
056.036
And made them virgin - pure (and undefiled), -
056.037
Beloved (by nature), equal in age,-
056.038
YUSUFALI: For the Companions of the Right Hand.


AN-NABA (THE TIDINGS, THE ANNOUNCEMENT)
078.031
Verily for the Righteous there will be a fulfilment of (the heart's) desires;
078.032
Gardens enclosed, and grapevines;
078.033
And voluptuous women of equal age;

"As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation)."
The Book of Women 4:15

Any Muslims able to justify these quotes? Or will it just end up with ye trying to argue that it's a mistranslation and it actually means that women are the same as men and everything's hunky dory?

mmalaka

PDN wrote: »

A friend of mine was working as a nurse in Saudi and I know she was allowed to drive (maybe because she's not a Muslim?).

Trouble was she was in an accident where a guy smashed into her. She had two other nurses in the car with her, but was told by the police that the testimony of one man is counted as the equivalent of that of ten women - so the guy's testimony outranked her and her two (female) witnesses. So she was held responsible for causing the accident.

I would be interested to know if the 10 women to 1 man thing is simply a remnant of some bedouin misogyny in Saudi or is it based on some religious text?

This is really funny

Acually Testimony of one man is counted as the equivalent of that of 2 women not 10!!! I think that the guy made an agreement with the police man against ur friend

donaghs

Can't help but pick up on a few issues here that illustrate the divergence between ideas on liberal democracy and more traditional societies.

mmalaka wrote: »

About sex: Is this a right thing? I think even the church see the sex outside the marriage as a sin correct?

What Church? Churches and religions don't legislate for people in a liberal democracy.

In relation to the moral issue, just because you have the ****right*** to sleep with as many people as you want to (or none), this does not mean that you must do this. This is an issue of having rights.

mmalaka wrote: »

Yes it is true but it is not related to Islam. the strange thing that if u get out from the cities and drive deeply in the desert to the small towns (it is so small to be town) u will find saudi women driving without any problems

So is everything ok then?

mmalaka wrote: »

This is really funny

Acually Testimony of one man is counted as the equivalent of that of 2 women not 10!!! I think that the guy made an agreement with the police man against ur friend

Missing the point again. Its not an issue of the size of the ratio - its the inequality itself.

Dave!

mmalaka wrote: »

This is really funny

Acually Testimony of one man is counted as the equivalent of that of 2 women not 10!!! I think that the guy made an agreement with the police man against ur friend

Oh well then! That's grand, so!

Suff

donaghs wrote: »

Missing the point again. Its not an issue of the size of the ratio - its the inequality itself.

Many scholars tried to understand this ratio. my current understanding is that women are more sensitive and compassionate than men. therefore having two women as witnesses is more favorable if one is thinking with her heart the other might remind her of it.

WindSock

Suff wrote: »

Many scholars tried to understand this ratio. my current understanding is that women are more sensitive and compassionate than men. therefore having two women as witnesses is more favorable if one is thinking with her heart the other might remind her of it.

Even still, that doesn't make much sense. Does that mean a callous, inhumane and desensitised person makes for a better witness?
Are all men not compassionate?

Suff

The point is that women tend to use their hearts more than men.

Medina

Here is an article which may address the reasoning behind the 2:1 witness ratio more accurately

http://lightuponlight.com/islam/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=289

SkepticOne

In what countries are these witness ratios applied in their judicial systems?

Suff

SkepticOne wrote: »

In what countries are these witness ratios applied in their judicial systems?

Only in countries where Islamic law is the only law in practice. Most countries in the MiddleEast such as Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt use secular Law.
while countires such as Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar and I think Indonesia have the Islamic law in place.

Note: Most Arabic and Islamic countires use a mix of both Islamic and secular Laws.

Jack Sheehan

Suff wrote: »

The point is that women tend to use their hearts more than men.

Excuse me for being rude but this is the stupidest and most condescending law I've ever heard. So women are incapable of thinking rationally and only a man can 'think with his head'? That kind of Judicial inequality is indefensible whether its 2:1 or 100:1!

Suff

Jack Sheehan wrote: »

So women are incapable of thinking rationally and only a man can 'think with his head'?

Did I say this? No you did. My point is as clear as your rudeess.

Jack Sheehan wrote: »

That kind of Judicial inequality is indefensible whether its 2:1 or 100:1!

Women are not equal to Men, each share general rights and a bit extra over their own rights.
Why not have maternity leave for Men?

Jack Sheehan

Suff wrote: »

Did I say this? No you did. My point is as clear as your rudeess.



Women are not equal to Men, each share general rights and a bit extra over their own rights.
Why not have maternity leave for Men?

I didn't say you said anything, what I said was that this law implies that women are incapable of rational thinking.

As for your second point, OK Women and men are not equal on some issues but as regards the law and human rights they are or at least should be totally equal.

oceanclub

Suff wrote: »

Women are not equal to Men, each share general rights and a bit extra over their own rights.
Why not have maternity leave for Men?

It's a biological fact that men don't have wombs. You've yet to prove it's a biological fact that women are only half as rational as men.

P.

Suff

Jack Sheehan wrote: »

I didn't say you said anything, what I said was that this law implies that women are incapable of rational thinking.

edit*
I'm Sorry if it seemed to implies this, but it really doesn't. My point was that women are more passionate than men. And for your information the source of most of the Prophet (PBUH) teachings and his daily life activities were taken from his wife "Aeisha". So her testimony that helped preserve the teachings.

As for your second point, OK Women and men are not equal on some issues but as regards the law and human rights they are or at least should be totally equal.

I AGREE with you 100% on this.
When Islam came it gave women more rights than any other institution. the right of freedom (pre-Islam women were bought, sold and even inherited), education and inheritance.
Social backround and cultural differences play a major role in how a society treat its members whether they are women , children or the eldery.
example;
If an abusive husband/father is the topic of an domestic issue the blame always falls on the faith (Islam) but is the same person was from another faith... the faith issue is never addressed.
Also I would like to note that women in some of the ME countries are as free as women in Ireland, they enjoy full freedom to life their life as they see. Education is compulsory for all children, you can hardly find a girl in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Kuwait that doesn't hold third level education qualifications.
With all honesty, all the girls in my family are as free as they want. No one in our family ever forced them into arranged marrige or any other social misconception of our society.

The Arabic society is not as closed or backward as most people think, just because its Modest doesnt mean its under oppression.

IMHO the faith is perfect but the people who practise it aren't.

Jack Sheehan

Suff wrote: »

edit*
I'm Sorry if it seemed to implies this, but it really doesn't. My point was that women are more passionate than men. And for your information the source of most of the Prophet (PBUH) teachings and his daily life activities were taken from his wife "Aeisha". So her testimony that helped preserve the teachings.


IMHO the faith is perfect but the people who practice it aren't.

Since when is it an accepted fact that women are more passionate than men? And if this was true why would it mean that their opinion and judgement should be valued less?

In addition, the fact that Mohammed's wife helped create many of these teachings has no relevance to matters today. Mohammed's wife, while I'm sure she was a wise woman, is not the representative of all women on earth

Medina

Hi Jack
I think you are putting words into Suff's mouth here...
He never said nor implied (as far as I can see) that women are not rational thinking creatures.
Have you read the article I linked to?
I think it expresses just one of various reasons why a woman's testimony would be less reliable than that of a man's.

Its not that we are more forgetful than men, but science has proved that our biological cycles can affect our concentration and memory which is a factor a man doesn't have to contend with.

Also in my opinion, if a woman was to see some crime taking place, she is more likely to run away than a man I would say. Most crime seems to be committed by men (why is that?) and a women is rarely going to stand there and watch. A man might be more likely to watch or try to intervene etc

Jack Sheehan

Medina wrote: »

Hi Jack
I think you are putting words into Suff's mouth here...
He never said nor implied (as far as I can see) that women are not rational thinking creatures.
Have you read the article I linked to?
I think it expresses just one of various reasons why a woman's testimony would be less reliable than that of a man's.

Its not that we are more forgetful than men, but science has proved that our biological cycles can affect our concentration and memory which is a factor a man doesn't have to contend with.

Also in my opinion, if a woman was to see some crime taking place, she is more likely to run away than a man I would say. Most crime seems to be committed by men (why is that?) and a women is rarely going to stand there and watch. A man might be more likely to watch or try to intervene etc

I did read the article you posted and again I apologize for being rude but I can't accept any of what you are saying.

Unless you are willing to post a link to a proper, peer reviewed scientific study proving that 'biological cycles can affect our concentration and memory which is a factor a man doesn't have to contend with.' I have to disagree with your statement. From any Scientific study I have ever heard, women are in fact at least as capable or more capable of remembering details and specifics about events that they have witnessed.

If you can show me such a study disproving this I will be happy to eat my words. Until then however I still argue that it is an unjust and sexist system.


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2294/is_2002_Dec/ai_98125314

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/gendiff.htm

oceanclub

Medina wrote: »

Its not that we are more forgetful than men, but science has proved that our biological cycles can affect our concentration and memory which is a factor a man doesn't have to contend with.

Do you have any citations of studies for this "proof"? I can come up with studies that show the exact opposite:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2294/is_2002_Dec/ai_98125314

Gender-Linked differences in everyday memory performance: effort makes the difference - Brief Report

To quote:

For example, in Lindholm and Christianson's study (Lindholm & Christianson, 1998), women outperformed men in eyewitness memory for a violent murder, and the investigators suggested that women's memory of such events may be assisted by more elaborate categories for encoding information about people.

Also in my opinion, if a woman was to see some crime taking place, she is more likely to run away than a man I would say. Most crime seems to be committed by men (why is that?) and a women is rarely going to stand there and watch. A man might be more likely to watch or try to intervene etc

In that case, if the woman didn't witness the crime, then obviously they wouldn't make a good witness. But the exact same applies to a man who ran away from the crime.

What about the case of a rape, where the only witnesses were the woman raped and the rapist. In this case, the woman would never be believed. Is this right?

P.

Medina

The link I posted has various scientific studies quoted, which came from independent sources?

Psychiatry in Practice, April 1983 issue states:

"Forty percent of women suffer from pre-menstrual syndrome in some form and one in if our women have their lives severely disrupted by it. Dr Jill Williams, general practitioner from Bury, gives guidelines on how to recognise patients at risk and suggests a suitable treatment." [Psychiatry in Practice, April 1993, p.14]

In the same issue, George Beaumont reporting on the workshop held at the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists in London on pre-menstrual syndrome, says:

"Some authorities would argue that 80 percent of women have some degree of breast and abdominal discomfort which is pre-menstrual but that only about 10 percent complain to their doctors - and then only because of severe tenderness of the breasts and mental depression... Other authorities have suggested that pre-menstrual syndrome is a new problem, regular ovulation for 20 years or more being a phenomenon caused by 'civilisation', 'medical progress', and an altered concept of the role of women." [Psychiatry in Practice, April 1993, p.18]

In its examination of the occurrence of physical and psychological change during the period just prior to the onset of menstruation we read in Psychological Medicine:

"Many studies have reported an increased likelihood of various negative affects during the pre-menstrual period. In this affective category are many emotional designations including irritability, depression, tension, anxiety, sadness, insecurity, lethargy, loneliness, tearfulness, fatigue, restlessness and changes of mood. In the majority of studies, investigators have found it difficult to distinguish between various negative affects, and only a few have allowed themselves to be excessively concerned with the differences which might or might not exist between affective symptoms." [Psychological Medicine, Monograph Supplement 4, 1983, Cambridge University Press, p.6]

In the same article dealing with pre-menstrual behavioural changes we read:

"A significant relationship between the pre-menstrual phase of the cycle and a variety of specific and defined forms of behaviour has been reported in a number of studies. For the purpose of their review, these forms of behaviour have been grouped under the headings of aggressive behaviour, illness behaviour and accidents, performance on examination and other tests and sporting performance." [Psychological Medicine, Monograph Supplement 4, 1983, Cambridge University Press, p.7]

The lengthy review portrays how female behaviour is affected in these situations. In 'The Pre-menstrual Syndrome', C. Shreeves writes:

"Reduced powers of concentration and memory are familiar aspects of the pre-menstrual syndrome and can only be remedied by treating the underlying complaint."

This does not mean, of course, that women are mentally deficient absolutely. It just means that their mental faculties can become affected at certain times in the biological cycle. Shreeves also writes:

"As many as 80 percent of women are aware of some degree of pre-menstrual changes, 40 percent are substantially disturbed by them, and between 10 and 20 percent are seriously disabled as a result of the syndrome."

Furthermore, women face the problem of ante-natal and post-natal depression, both of which cause extreme cycles of depression in some cases. Again, these recurring symptoms naturally affect the mind, giving rise to drowsiness and dopey memory.

On the subject of pregnancy in Psychiatry in Practice, October-November 1986, we learn that:

"In an experiment 'Cox' found that 16 percent of a sample of 263 pregnant women were suffering from clinically significant psychiatric problems. Eight percent had a depressive neurosis and 1.9 percent had phobic neurosis. This study showed that the proportion of pregnant women with psychiatric problems was greater than that found in the control group but the difference only tended towards significance." [Psychiatry in Practice, October-November, 1986, p.6]

Regarding the symptoms during the post-natal cycle Dr. Ruth Sagovsky writes:

"The third category of puerperal psychiatric problems is post-natal depression. It is generally agreed that between10 to 15 percent of women become clinically depressed after childbirth. These mothers experience a variety of symptoms but anxiety, especially over the baby, irritability, and excessive fatigue are common. Appetite is usually decreased and often there are considerable sleep difficulties. The mothers lose interest in the things they enjoyed prior to the baby's birth, and find that their concentration is impaired. They often feel irrational guilt, and blame themselves for being 'bad' wives and mothers. Fifty percent of these women are not identified as having a depressive illness. Unfortunately, many of them do not understand what ails them and blame their husbands, their babies or themselves until the relationships are strained to an alarming degree." [Psychiatry in Practice, May, 1987, p.18]

" ... Making the diagnosis of post-natal depression is not always easy. Quite often the depression is beginning to become a serious problem around three months postpartum when frequent contact with the health visitor is diminishing. The mother may not present with depressed mood. If she comes to the health centre presenting the baby as the patient, the true nature of the problem can be missed. When the mother is continually anxious about the baby in spite of reassurance, then the primary health care worker needs to be aware of the possibility of depression. Sometimes these mothers present with marital difficulties, and it is easy to muddle cause and effect, viewing the accompanying low mood as part of the marital problem. Sometimes, only when the husband is seen as well does it become obvious that it is a post-natal depressive illness which has led to the deterioration in the marriage." [Psychiatry in Practice, May, 1987, p.18]*

Again there is a need to study the effects of the menopause about which very little is known even to this day. This phase in a woman's life can start at any time from the mid-thirties to the mid-fifties and can last for as long as 15 years.

Writing about the pre-menopausal years, C.B. Ballinger states:

"Several of the community surveys indicate a small but significant increase in psychiatric symptoms in women during the five years prior to the cessation of menstrual periods... The most obvious clinical feature of this transitional phase of menstrual function is the alteration in menstrual pattern, the menstrual cycle becoming shorter with age, and variability in cycle length become very prominent just prior to the cessation of menstruation. Menorrhagia is a common complaint at this time, and is associated with higher than normal levels of psychiatric disturbance." [Psychiatry in Practice, November, 1987, p.26]

On the phenomenon of menopause in an article in Newsweek International, May 25th 1992, Dr. Jennifer al-Knopf, Director of the Sex and Marital Therapy Programme of North-western University writes:

" ... Women never know what their body is doing to them ... some reporting debilitating symptoms from hot flashes to night sweat, sleeplessness, irritability, mood swings, short term memory loss, migraine, headaches, urinary inconsistence and weight gain. Most such problems can be traced to the drop-off in the female hormones oestrogen and progesterone, both of which govern the ovarian cycle. But every woman starts with a different level of hormones and loses them at different rates. The unpredictability is one of the most upsetting aspects. Women never know what their body is going to do to them ... "

Then there are the psychiatric aspects of infertility and miscarriage. On the subject of infertility, Dr. Ruth Sagovsky writes:

"Depression, anger and guilt are common reactions to bereavement. In infertility there is the added pain of there being nobody to grieve for. Families and friends may contribute to the feeling of isolation by passing insensitive comments. The gynaecologist and GPs have to try to help these couples against a backdrop of considerable distress." [Psychiatry in Practice, Winter, 1989, p.16]

On the subject of miscarriage the above article continues:

"Miscarriage is rarely mentioned when considering abortion. However, miscarriage can at times have profound psychological sequelae and it is important that those women affected receive the support they need. Approximately one-fifth of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion and the effects are poorly recognised. If however, the miscarriage occurs in the context of infertility, the emotional reaction may be severe. The level of grief will depend on the meaning of pregnancy to the couple." [Psychiatry in Practice, Winter, 1989, p.17]

Also, the fact that women are known to be more sensitive and emotional than men must not be overlooked. It is well known, for example, that under identical circumstances women suffer much greater anxiety than men. Numerous medical references on this aspect of female behaviour can be given but to quote as a specimen, we read in 'Sex Differences in Mental Health' that:

"Surveys have found different correlates of anxiety and neuroticism in the two sexes. Women and men do not become equally upset by the same things, and being upset does not have the same effect in men as in women. Ekehammer (1974; Ekehammer, Magnusson and Ricklander, 1974) using data from 116 sixteen-year-olds, did a factor analysis on self-reported anxiety. Of the eighteen different responses indicating anxiety (sweating palms, faster heart rate, and so on) females reported experiencing twelve of them significantly more often than males. Of the anxiety-producing situations studied, females reported experiencing significantly more anxiety than males reported in fourteen of them." [Katherine Blick Hoyenga and Kermit T. Hoyenga in Sex Differences in Mental Health, p.336]

Jack Sheehan

Well I can see that the study you have referenced (link please?) directly contradicts the study I referenced.

As I'm no scientist I can't decide which is right but I would be more inclined to believe the Study that was conducted in 2002 rather than 1983. I think superior research methods would give more accurate results.

jam_mac_jam

Medina wrote: »

Hi Jack
I think you are putting words into Suff's mouth here...
He never said nor implied (as far as I can see) that women are not rational thinking creatures.
Have you read the article I linked to?
I think it expresses just one of various reasons why a woman's testimony would be less reliable than that of a man's.

Its not that we are more forgetful than men, but science has proved that our biological cycles can affect our concentration and memory which is a factor a man doesn't have to contend with.

Also in my opinion, if a woman was to see some crime taking place, she is more likely to run away than a man I would say. Most crime seems to be committed by men (why is that?) and a women is rarely going to stand there and watch. A man might be more likely to watch or try to intervene etc

This is the exact type of inaccuracy and attitude which creates the impression that Islam does not treat women well. The idea that hormones are going to prevent a woman being able to report or witness a crime is laughable. You have answered the original question asked, when non muslims hear such laughable ideas being defended they can sometimes (inaccurately in my opinion) think that all muslims believe such nonsence.

Medina

oceanclub wrote: »

What about the case of a rape, where the only witnesses were the woman raped and the rapist. In this case, the woman would never be believed. Is this right?

P.

I can't state how a court of islamic law would go about ascertaining truth/falsehoold but I would imagine that witness testimony would only be the crux of the case if there was no medical evidence of force or other evidences etc.

And if there is no medical evidence, then it comes down to what a woman says versus what a man says. And then the requirement for witnesses can come both ways...

For example:
From the accounts (hadith) of the Prophet peace be upon him:

Sahih Al Bukhari
Volume 3, Book 48, Number 837:
Narrated Ibn Abbas:

Hilal bin Umaiya accused his wife before the Prophet of committing illegal sexual intercourse with Sharik bin Sahma.' The Prophet said, "Produce a proof, or else you would get the legal punishment (by being lashed) on your back." Hilal said, "O Allah's Apostle! If anyone of us saw another man over his wife, would he go to search for a proof." The Prophet went on saying, "Produce a proof or else you would get the legal punishment (by being lashed) on your back." The Prophet then mentioned the narration of Lian (as in the Holy Book). (Surat-al-Nur: 24)