Islam and Women

MeditationMom

by bluewolf - Sounds a lot more likely that heaven wouldn't have time at all

That's right. Infinity means no space, (not lots and lots of space),Eternity means no time (not lots and lots of time). So, any notions of anything happening in heaven, are false. Nothing happens in heaven. That is why it would be heaven for some, hell for others. Just being with God, that's all. Bliss or torture - it depends on us.

All these ideas - angles, music, virgins, food.... are analogies as to the peace and contentment we feel here on earth when we have those things in abundance. Heaven is as if full of willing virgins, heavenly music. That is quite different from heaven is full of willing virgins and heavenly music. Heaven is this peace and contentment, bliss beyond description. People get confused between poetry and actuality.

And yes, Schuhart - come with me to nowhere

As far as beating women is concerned - the Quran is old. In those days women were possessions like donkeys. Some men still feel this way and don't think they are doing anything wrong. (Not limited to Muslims either) It is up to the women to defend themselves. There are many Muslim women rejecting the Quran, arguing it is the cause of faulty thinking. Too bad to throw out the baby with the bathwater as there is so much beauty in the Quran, but many of these women make valid points.

Any religion that does not allow freedom to leave the religion is suspect, especially since the people who the religion is based on, left theirs!!! It makes no sense religiously - only politically - and could in no way have been the intention of the original teacher.

normar

Schuhart wrote: »

.........if two people freely contract a marriage on the basis that one must submit to the authority of the other and expect to be disciplined if they disobey, then it is presumably entirely their affair.

A Muslim cannot leave the faith, and a Muslim woman can only marry a Muslim man. Hence, the option of contracting a marriage where the Quran is irrelevant is not open to her. That’s really where the issue sits, as I see it.

.

How sad. The only option available then to the Muslin woman is to

"contract a marriage on the basis that one must submit to the authority of the other and expect to be disciplined if they disobey",



Fortunately in our pluralist democracy such "contracts" as above are illegal and the beating of a woman by a man in any circumstances is a criminal offense.

Women participating against women in boxing and other sporting events bares no comparison to a man beating a woman against her will. To suggest so as you have done in you posts above above is to reduce this discussion to a complete farce.



..

Schuhart

normar wrote: »

How sad. The only option available then to the Muslin woman is to

"contract a marriage on the basis that one must submit to the authority of the other and expect to be disciplined if they disobey",

That's my understanding of the situation, based on such scholarly articles as I've read. I think it is fair to point out that the husband is seen as having obligations to treat his wife decently and not abuse his authority. But, ultimately, I understand the text you have highlighted to be correct.

normar wrote: »

Fortunately in our pluralist democracy such "contracts" as above are illegal and the beating of a woman by a man in any circumstances is a criminal offense.

As I said above, I simply don't know the legal position. However, I have twice mentioned couples who engage in bondage. I'm not conscious of that being a criminal offence, but it presumably does involve men beating women (and vice versa). And its not as if the Garda don't know where these activities can be found.

We met some lovely people who were so friendly and we were both amazed at the trust and care between the partners who were being spanked and doing the spanking. You could see the closeness of their relationship even when one was getting spanked.

Are all those people criminals?

normar wrote: »

Women participating against women in boxing and other sporting events bares no comparison to a man beating a woman against her will. To suggest so as you have done in you posts above above is to reduce this discussion to a complete farce.

I have quite clearly exposed your straw man argument for what it is. To be honest, I'm more than a little surprised to see you repeat it. I don't intend to repeat the refutation I already posted here.

AckwelFoley

Would it be a reasonalbe assumption that some western laws are perhaps not compatible with Islamic laws or vice versa?

Filan

So what then is the attraction in Islam for female reverts?.

PDN

Filan wrote: »

So what then is the attraction in Islam for female reverts?.

Many cases seem to be in order to marry Muslim men.

Medina

normar wrote: »

How sad. The only option available then to the Muslin woman is to

"contract a marriage on the basis that one must submit to the authority of the other and expect to be disciplined if they disobey",

This is not true at all Normar

I didn't want to get involved in this debate but as a Muslim woman maybe it helps.

If the Quran is interpreted to mean it allows the hitting of the wife, then that is all it is, 'allowed'. It is not an instruction to hit the wife and the various other evidences from Islamic sources of law (the Hadith) point out the teachings of the Prophet to NOT hit your wife. The two are not in opposition I believe, but rather more like 'its allowed but should be avoided'.

Therefore it is allowed in the case of the extreme only.

Personally as a muslim woman, if I was considering a man for marriage, I would be questioning him about his attitudes to this matter. I would also make it clear that if he laid a finger on me, I'd be out of that marriage. Therefore it is not the case where being muslim, female and married equals your acceptance to be hit. And there is no need to throw out the baby with the bathwater as MeditationMom phrased it.

The Prophet peace be upon him left many teachings about how best a man can treat his wife and family and included in this was not to beat wives, he never hit his own wives and it is the duty of all Muslims to follow the Sunnah (example left by the Prophet). So one could say that it is a man's duty to NOT hit his wife although it is not a punishable act by God under extreme circumstances when all the prior means of reconciliation have been exhausted.

DinoBot

Medina wrote: »

This is not true at all Normar

I didn't want to get involved in this debate but as a Muslim woman maybe it helps.

If the Quran is interpreted to mean it allows the hitting of the wife, then that is all it is, 'allowed'. It is not an instruction to hit the wife and the various other evidences from Islamic sources of law (the Hadith) point out the teachings of the Prophet to NOT hit your wife. The two are not in opposition I believe, but rather more like 'its allowed but should be avoided'.

Therefore it is allowed in the case of the extreme only.

Personally as a muslim woman, if I was considering a man for marriage, I would be questioning him about his attitudes to this matter. I would also make it clear that if he laid a finger on me, I'd be out of that marriage. Therefore it is not the case where being muslim, female and married equals your acceptance to be hit. And there is no need to throw out the baby with the bathwater as MeditationMom phrased it.

The Prophet peace be upon him left many teachings about how best a man can treat his wife and family and included in this was not to beat wives, he never hit his own wives and it is the duty of all Muslims to follow the Sunnah (example left by the Prophet). So one could say that it is a man's duty to NOT hit his wife although it is not a punishable act by God under extreme circumstances when all the prior means of reconciliation have been exhausted.

Hang on a minute. You admit that the quran may say it is allowed to hit your wife. So if the quran allows it, that means god has allowed it. So on what grounds would you seek divorce from your husband ? who is simply following what is allowed by god ?

Plus, I believe you would only have that right within a secular country because if this was an Islamic country I don't think you would have that right. I dont think you would even ask for it tbh.

But that aside you imply your comfortable with it in " the case of the extreme only ". So what case could you think of where you would feel your husband had this right over you ?

Medina

DinoBot wrote: »

Hang on a minute. You admit that the quran may say it is allowed to hit your wife. So if the quran allows it, that means god has allowed it. So on what grounds would you seek divorce from your husband ? who is simply following what is allowed by god ?

It is not allowed to just go around hitting your wife because you feel like it. You have forgotten the context. She would have to be disobedient in terms of her religion or on a serious matter where her behaviour is unacceptable according to Islam. As a practising muslim woman, I do not foresee myself in that position! Also all other means of trying to resolve the situation have to be fully exhausted and there are stages outlined to deal with a conflict. I also believe that it is not as a slap but as scholars say 'like as with a toothbrush' and of course a man I would marry would have to also have this opinion in advance. If your marriage is so bad that it was at that point, this tap is a symbolic warning he is on the verge of divorcing you, a slap certainly isn't going to resolve anything.

These issues would be discussed before marriage therefore it would be understood between us both that a hard physical hit is not acceptable.
As for grounds of seeking a divorce, if he is at the point of hitting me, then chances are if I asked him to divorce me, he gladly would. If he refused then you seek one from the sheikh. My grounds? He himself is not following Islamic law since I myself would not do anything so extreme as to warrant it.

DinoBot wrote: »

Plus, I believe you would only have that right within a secular country because if this was an Islamic country I don't think you would have that right. I dont think you would even ask for it tbh.

What right? I don't understand what you are talking about. The right to divorce? Of course women have the right to divorce, read the Quran!

DinoBot wrote: »

But that aside you imply your comfortable with it in " the case of the extreme only ". So what case could you think of where you would feel your husband had this right over you ?

In my personal opinion he has the right to tap me to symbolise his nearness to divorce on an issue where I am breaking the laws of shariah or not upholding the sunnah and all his attempts to resolve the issue (as per the phases outlined in the Quran) have been exhausted.

DinoBot

Medina wrote: »

What right? I don't understand what you are talking about. The right to divorce? Of course women have the right to divorce, read the Quran!

I suppose I was speaking more from women in Islamic countries, they don't seem to understand Quran as you do. In some cases to ask for divorce is seen as being against Islam and shameful.
But that aside, I believe Islam creates a mindset of submission, firstly to god and then your husband. With this in place sometimes its difficult for a woman to practice her rights.
Plus its really unattractive as well as the woman will forgo her right to the children. While in non islamic countries its not set in stone and the kids will be put where they are best looked after.

Medina wrote: »

In my personal opinion he has the right to tap me to symbolise his nearness to divorce on an issue where I am breaking the laws of shariah or not upholding the sunnah and all his attempts to resolve the issue (as per the phases outlined in the Quran) have been exhausted.

Why is the same right not given to women, What laws are in place to help you if your husband is breaking shariah law.
Plus, if it got to the stage that you decided to break shariah law, in spite of your husbands protests and attempts to stop you, would this "tap" help in any way, really ??

Medina

DinoBot wrote: »

I suppose I was speaking more from women in Islamic countries, they don't seem to understand Quran as you do.

There are some countries where women's education and access to Quran, hadith and books on fiqh (law) is not what it should be. I think a lot of the malpractice of Islam that is reported on is in countries where both men and women are not educated about their religion and thus culture becomes predominant. Not every country you hear about, but definitely some.

DinoBot wrote: »

In some cases to ask for divorce is seen as being against Islam and shameful.

Yes this is true, its very sad for me to see this happening as you feel the beauty of your religion is being ignored. And then someone points it out and you know its happening and you just wish that people would learn and live Islam right and love Allah swt as it was asked of us. And then I tell myself to get off my high horse because I make mistakes too. I suppose the thing is in Islam divorce is allowed but is displeasing to Allah swt. This is what is said (in my words) in the Quran. But Allah swt created us and knows that the two will not always be compatible and no one should be stuck in a bad situation.

DinoBot wrote: »

But that aside, I believe Islam creates a mindset of submission, firstly to god and then your husband. With this in place sometimes its difficult for a woman to practice her rights.

To God yes, but this is a submission from love. And 'submission' here should not be equated with all the negative connotations associated with the word that we are used to. It's doing what Allah swt has asked you to do or living with a mindset (in good character and gentleness as brought by Muhammad peace be upon him) and being happy to do so because you love your Lord. It actually brings great happiness. On a micro analogy, its like doing what your wife/husband/mother/father would like because you love them and you appreciate all they have done for you. It gives you that warm feeling inside
All your rights are given by Allah swt so how can they be denied to you from Allah swt?

Submission to the husband is different than the submission to Allah swt. While some men and women interpret this very literally, the basic gist of it as I understand it, is that number one Islam should be followed. Both will realise that is the most important thing. Number two if both parties have an equally acceptable (within Shariah and within the etiquettes of Islam) point of view or desire or whatever it is that's between them, then to avoid strife, she would let him make the final decision etc. Her feelings should be taken into account though, its not as though she should have no voice. Maybe his final decision will be as she wants. I agree there are places and cultures where this does not happen, all I can say is that when a collective view of the Islamic teachings of character and etiquette and manners and how a person conducts themself is undertaken, compromise and kindness are the natural conclusion in my eyes. A nominated leader is not always a bad thing, and men have been nominated as leaders of the family. That also brings great responsibility on him.

DinoBot wrote: »

Plus its really unattractive as well as the woman will forgo her right to the children. While in non islamic countries its not set in stone and the kids will be put where they are best looked after.

To me Islam is a lifestyle, and there are many benefits to be reaped. But back in the day when I was a Catholic I thought Islam was oppressive etc etc, but as I came to learn it from its sources, I came to love it, and I realised that though sometimes things can seem harsh when picked on in isolation, there is usually a good reasoning behind it in the context of the social framework that Islam seeks to establish. That is a whole other issue. But to the one I suppose who doesn't love Islam, the reasoning may not seem good enough. And sometimes you know I can't find a good reason for something, but does that mean there isn't one? Should I turn away from Allah swt whom I do believe in and love because I can't understand myself the reasoning behind a particular law? Or should I have faith and trust that with my limited knowledge there may be reasons I can not understand. Similar to children not understanding decisions of their parents made for their own benefit though the child cannot understand it. And as a person accepting the will of Allah (being a muslim) you recognise that that entails recognition of your own limited capabilities in contrast to Allah who is the Most Great and Most Wise.

DinoBot wrote: »

Why is the same right not given to women, What laws are in place to help you if your husband is breaking shariah law.
Plus, if it got to the stage that you decided to break shariah law, in spite of your husbands protests and attempts to stop you, would this "tap" help in any way, really ??

As far as I know, if your husband is breaking Shariah law in a serious matter (as with the wife) then the wife has grounds for divorce aswell. I have never found it to be the opposite in my studies of Islam.
On the second point, the "tap" in and of itself is not actually going to resolve anything. However if my husband is signalling to me that he is on the brink of divorce, then perhaps I would cop on. Unless of course I thought that whatever I am doing is so worthwhile or justified to lose my husband over.

You know when two people are arguing and arguing over something and maybe one just turns around and says 'thats it we're finished!' and walks out, or in the Muslim case ends up saying 'thats it I divorce you!' maybe the other person didn't know despite the arguments how close to splitting up they actually were. A signal to this effect might make a difference.

And I don't see why a Muslim woman couldn't tell her husband or tap her husband either to be honest. Is it punishable? Allahu ahlam (Allah knows best) but it's neither confirmed nor denied in the Quran. I suppose the difference is a man can divorce his wife on the spot, whereas a woman needs to go to the sheikh if her husband won't divorce her himself.

Personally I think thats a good thing, as (and maybe I'll get attacked for this) but we woman can be quite highly strung and emotional and I fear we would do this rashly in anger much easier than a man would. To go to a sheikh I reckon you'd have to have sobered up and be really convinced that its what you want and maybe in the cold light of day you'd decide you want to give it another try. Thats just my opinion though.

Can I ask you if you are a follower of any faith yourself ? Can I also ask you what your opinions on divorce being not allowed within Catholicism are? I'm just curious is all.

DinoBot

Medina wrote: »

Can I ask you if you are a follower of any faith yourself ? Can I also ask you what your opinions on divorce being not allowed within Catholicism are? I'm just curious is all.

Took me awhile to read through your detailed answer

I hear what your saying but unfortunately I think the position of women is abused more often than not under Islam. I think it creates a mindset of submission which is counterproductive to people asking for their rights.

That said however, if more women were actually made better aware of the rights they do have under Islam I think it would create huge change in the Islamic world.

For myself, no I'm not a follower of any faith. And thats through choice, not lack of knowledge of religion. As far as Catholicism goes, Id disagree with many many aspects of that faith including its stance on divorce.

Medina

Well Dinobot, you have your opinion and I have mine
Thanks for the response on your own choices.

the_new_mr

Very very good posting Medina. You are getting very wise and eloquent. May God increase all our knowledge and shower us with His guidance as He has given you.

I feel bad that I have to pollute this post with this warning but, as a moderator, I am obliged to do so.

MeditationMom - Your posts are usually very enjoyable to read but there are two main problems with post #92 in this thread.
1.: You insult Muslims by saying that "In those days women were possessions like donkeys" and imply that the Quran enforces this. You should know that Islam changed that way of thinking and gave women the rights that Medina has mentioned (amongst others). And although this has been dragged out a lot on this forum, I believe that Islam does allow freedom of belief and I share that belief with such esteemed scholars such as Dr. Jamal Badawi.

2.: You are perfectly entitled to say what you believe but please try and be sensitive to others by saying "I believe..." rather than a statement of fact. This tends to annoy people (not me really), I think you'll find that I usually start most of my sentences with "Muslims believe that..." when talking about an Islamic belief.

Schuhart - Not really a warning but more of a request. Please do not compare bondage with Islamic marriage. I don't think I have to explain why. Thanks.

MeditationMom

by the-new-mr I feel bad that I have to pollute this post with this warning but, as a moderator, I am obliged to do so.

-MeditationMom - Your posts are usually very enjoyable to read but there are two main problems with post #92 in this thread.
1.: You insult Muslims by saying that "In those days women were possessions like donkeys" and imply that the Quran enforces this. You should know that Islam changed that way of thinking and gave women the rights that Medina has mentioned (amongst others). And although this has been dragged out a lot on this forum, I believe that Islam does allow freedom of belief and I share that belief with such esteemed scholars such as Dr. Jamal Badawi.

2.: You are perfectly entitled to say what you believe but please try and be sensitive to others by saying "I believe..." rather than a statement of fact. This tends to annoy people (not me really), I think you'll find that I usually start most of my sentences with "Muslims believe that..." when talking about an Islamic belief.

You are not polluting this thread by pointing this out. We need our moderators and I am grateful you took the time to let me know. The first misunderstanding is - and it is me who should have been more clear - I did not mean to assign this "women as possessions issue" to Islam. It was/is a worldwide phenomenon, and worldwide - this is still how some men think. If scripture - any scripture - is ever used to justify such attitudes, I consider this misuse of that scripture. It also is not just a religious issue.

The "donkey" was an image in the sense of someone who has to carry endless burdens, has little freedom, can be beaten "for training", used for utility - love may be involved the way we love those useful to us - etc, etc,etc...but still - I didn't mean to blame this on Islam.

The fact that this could all be taken as if I were implying that this was prescribed specifically in Islam - is only proof how poorly I chose my words. Thank you for pointing it out.

by Medina - But back in the day when I was a Catholic....And as a person accepting the will of Allah (being a muslim) you recognise that that entails recognition of your own limited capabilities in contrast to Allah who is the Most Great and Most Wise.

Medina - I find this a very nice post about our humility in the face of the Unknown.

When I realized that you adopted Islam after growing up Christian, I found myself wondering whether to you, having moved from Christianity to Islam, God and Allah are the same or two different beings. In other words, would you also say: "God is the Most Great and the Most Wise" or even add "and Jesus is his messenger" - or would that feel like a conflict in your mind?

I am also interested in how other Muslims and Christians here feel about this.

DinoBot

MeditationMom wrote: »

, God and Allah are the same or two different beings. In other words, would you also say: "God is the Most Great and the Most Wise" or even add "and Jesus is his messenger" - or would that feel like a conflict in your mind?

I am also interested in how other Muslims and Christians here feel about this.

Simple

La ilaha illallah -- there is no deity but God

In Islam, there is only one God. The word God has a counterpart Goddess to denote the female. The word Allah does not.

I think the conflict is the Christian god and Islamic god are very different. Much like the god of the old testament and new testament in the Christian bible. But as there is only one god in Islam, there is no conflict in thinking that they are two beings. According to Islam, Allah also spoke through the bible but it has become corrupt through the ages (Im sure one of the Muslims can give a better explanation)

threeleggedhors

My sister married a muslim, had no choice but to convert and I have to say isn't treated as an equal and my family's observations when in his home country, a muslim country, is that women are pretty much second class citizens. You can argue away about generalizations and the picture portrayed by the media but I think Islam definitely doesn't help especially when you see the quotes from the Quran in this thread. They certainly provide fuel for the fire. From what I know there's still a few muslim countries where women struggle to get an education, even Ireland in it's hayday wasn't that bad. Hopefully as they economically develop they'll begin to lose all their old rules and women can live as a complete equal and not live in an imaginary world where they think they're equal.;)

the_new_mr

That's unfortunate about your sister. Honestly pisses me off a lot when people don't follow Islam as it should be. Unfortunately, you're right that there are a lot of women in the Islamic world who don't have the rights they should but that has more to do with the people there than Islam. There are plenty of Islamic countries where women have the rights they deserve and there are also plenty of non-Islamic countries where women don't have the rights they deserve so it's not Islam's fault. It's people's fault. If followed properly, Islam provides the best environment possible for a woman and holds her in high esteem as a cornerstone of society.

As for your question MeditationMom. Muslims see the God from Christianity as the same God in Islam as the Creator of the Universe. The only difference, as you know, is that Muslims don't believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God or the son of God.

MeditationMom wrote:

would you also say: "God is the Most Great and the Most Wise"

I usually use the word God when speaking English and sometimes use God and Allah interchangeably to show He is the same God.

MeditationMom wrote:

or even add "and Jesus is his messenger"

The meaning of the Shahada (the testimony of faith) which translates as "There is no god but God and Mohamed is the messenger of God" is meant to be the differentiating factor between Islam and other religions in that the belief that Mohamed (peace be upon him) is the messenger of God is unique to Islam.

As it happens, when a new Muslim convert wishes to get a certificate to prove that they are a Muslim from the Islamic authority in Egypt, they have to repeat quite a long oral statement which says something like "I bear witness that there is no god but God and that Mohamed is His servant and messenger. I also bear witness that Jesus and Moses are His servants and messengers." or something like that. Can't remember exactly.

Anyway, my point is that the acceptance of Jesus or Moses (peace be upon them both) as messengers of Islam is a foundation of Islamic belief and, quite simply, if you don't believe that they were messengers of God then you're not a Muslim.

Al-Baqara:285
"The apostle, and the believers with him, believe in what has been bestowed upon him from on high by his Sustainer: they all believe in God, and His angels, and His revelations, and His apostles, making no distinction between any of His apostles; and they say: We have heard, and we pay heed. Grant us Thy forgiveness, O our Sustainer, for with Thee is all journeys' end!"