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What is happening in Kosovo at the moment?
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Lovely articles about kosovo on this site.
http://www.balkanalysis.com/2007/11/18/kosovo-auf-deutsch/
I wouldn't recommend buying property there any time soon.
Wes, to answer your question, did the US engineer the war there?
IMHO Yes, at a certain point the US was itching to give Milosevic a bloody nose, he had pushed them too far, too often and would be taught a lesson. They gave up on the chance of a peaceful solution, maybe they thought the time had come for the gloves to come off. I think Madelaine Albright would have dropped the bombs herself given the chance. Ironic given her background.
There was more going on in Kosovo, for much longer than just immediate run up to '99. We all know Milosevic was elected based on his "strongman" image, including his speeches in Kosovo where he "wouldn't allow the Serbs to be beaten any more." The forerunner to this was intimidation tactics used to ethnically cleanse areas of Serbs by Albanian Mafia gangs.
(apologies don't have links now - will research this for you, some very well publicised incidents)
Using your logic the Serbs were correct to retaliate against the ethnic cleansing, criminality and intolerance there.
To sum up unfortunately for the serbs it looks like the kosovan idea is finished, it's going to be a money pit for decades, in spite of mineral wealth. Best solution for Serbia in the long run is the northern non-Albanian regions secede from Kosovo.0 -
Tea drinker wrote: »Lovely articles about kosovo on this site.
http://www.balkanalysis.com/2007/11/18/kosovo-auf-deutsch/
I wouldn't recommend buying property there any time soon.
Wes, to answer your question, did the US engineer the war there?
IMHO Yes, at a certain point the US was itching to give Milosevic a bloody nose, he had pushed them too far, too often and would be taught a lesson. They gave up on the chance of a peaceful solution, maybe they thought the time had come for the gloves to come off. I think Madelaine Albright would have dropped the bombs herself given the chance. Ironic given her background.
There was more going on in Kosovo, for much longer than just immediate run up to '99. We all know Milosevic was elected based on his "strongman" image, including his speeches in Kosovo where he "wouldn't allow the Serbs to be beaten any more." The forerunner to this was intimidation tactics used to ethnically cleanse areas of Serbs by Albanian Mafia gangs.
(apologies don't have links now - will research this for you, some very well publicised incidents)
Using your logic the Serbs were correct to retaliate against the ethnic cleansing, criminality and intolerance there.
To sum up unfortunately for the serbs it looks like the kosovan idea is finished, it's going to be a money pit for decades, in spite of mineral wealth. Best solution for Serbia in the long run is the northern non-Albanian regions secede from Kosovo.
Honestly, I find it hard to believe the US engineered that war. I think it was plenty clear it was either the KLA or Milosevic.
As for the Kosovan gangs, action against them specifically would have been correct. Trying to ethnically cleanse all Albanians would hardly be fighting back. Theres a world of difference between self defense and ethnic cleansing. Weren't there massacres of Albanians in 1998, hardly seems like self defense.
Simply put I'll take the Americans official story over Milosevic's any day of the week and I hardly find the American's the most trust worthy. Even to this day Serbia is hiding war criminals, I find it hard to believe there version of events due to this.0 -
Yeah, but the actual incident to start the NATO war was Racak, which many independant observers say was a faked war crime. In any event US took sides long before the Nato campaign, they had been supplying the KLA terrorist group with weapons and training, they just needed the right situation to begin the war.Honestly, I find it hard to believe the US engineered that war. I think it was plenty clear it was either the KLA or Milosevic.
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Here's your answer:As for the Kosovan gangs, action against them specifically would have been correct. Trying to ethnically cleanse all Albanians would hardly be fighting back. Theres a world of difference between self defense and ethnic cleansing. Weren't there massacres of Albanians in 1998, hardly seems like self defense.
http://www.iraqwar.org/germanreport.htm
This and many, many other documents show that the NATO bombing CAUSED the refugees to leave Kosovo.Simply put I'll take the Americans official story over Milosevic's any day of the week and I hardly find the American's the most trust worthy. Even to this day Serbia is hiding war criminals, I find it hard to believe there version of events due to this.
US has a long history of lying as foreign policy. WMD?
For war criminals, you are right, they, or at least certain individuals are hiding them. What involvement the state has I don't know.
There is a very strong sentiment (at least in Serbia) that the Hague is very anti Serb, and that many war crimes and ethnic cleansing against Serbs is not punished as those commited by Serbs. This mistrust certainly clouds their judgement of the Hague. Carla Del Ponte is gone now so maybe this will help. The last couple of years have seen the lid being lifted on the war crimes commited by Serbs, with the Serbian nation facing up to what happened. I think to a certain extent this needs to happen in other countries in the region too, which have been "victims only" too long.
This site offers some info on the historical ethnic breakdown in the area.
http://www.rastko.org.yu/kosovo/istorija/sanu/ethnic.html
An unusual source re:ethnic cleansing....
http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=ethnic
This offers some info on the run up to the major serb actions in the region, but not as detailed as I hoped to find for you. I'll see if I can find more detailed info.
http://www.siri-us.com/backgrounders/Archives_Kosovo/KLA-Terror-Cleansing.html0 -
Will read through your links a little later.
Regarding the Hague, they have charged Bosnians for war crimes as well. I am not sure of what the outcome of those case are. There are lots of groups who see the Hague as unfair, I am pretty sure Sudan would have that opinion right now as well.0 -
Just the most recent update to this from today :
http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/mheykfsneycw/
"Today, the parliament will debate a strongly-worded resolution proposed by the government that will bind Serbian officials never to
accept Kosovo’s independence....
But the Serbian government resolution, which will almost certainly be adopted by the nationalist-dominated parliament, said that the
EU mission would not be welcome before Kosovo’s final status was determined at the UN Security Council, where Russia could veto any
decision not favourable to Belgrade....
“The sending of the proposed EU mission ... would be an act which jeopardises the sovereignty, territorial integrity and
the constitution of the Republic of Serbia,” according to a copy of the draft resolution made available to The Associated
Press.
Russia has opposed the new EU mission without Belgrade’s consent.
...
The proposed draft also said that Serbia must “act efficiently to protect the lives and property” of non-Albanians in Kosovo in
case it proclaims independence. It did not specify whether this would include an armed intervention advocated by Serbia’s
ultranationalists"0 -
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It did not specify whether this would include an armed intervention advocated by Serbia’s ultranationalists"
Listening to Auntie on the car radio, apparently an armed incurion is ruled out. There was one additional item referencing the military, which said that the Army might move into Kosovo with multi-national permission: In effect, occupying the Northern part of Kosovo where the Serbs are the majority, and defacto partitioning the country.
NTM0 -
@Morlar,
It seems to me that you are putting in a huge amount of effort to try and brainwash people into believing that an independent Kosova (Kosova is the Albanian pronunciation while Serbs use the word Kosovo. Taking into account that the Albanians are the majority and close to having their own state-de jure, the term Kosova will be used more widespread) will pose a risk to the stability in the region and even wider.
You seem to manipulate the term demographic anomaly very easily without knowing what you are talking about. You should go back in history-not the past 20 years but the post WWI history to figure out who and why tried and to a certain extent managed to change the democratic structure of the region. Once WW1 ended, Serbia was treated as part of the Allies and gained many “rights”. One of these was to start ethnically cleaning the region of Kosova. Within a few years, over 500.000 people were expelled from their homes and sent to Turkey. Facts on this are accessible in the Serbia state archive. There are data even from the Serb Academy of Science (the president Carnojevic) on the need to expel the Albanian population and make space for colonisations-Serbs to flood the area. Having expelled Albanians, Serbs arrived from mainland Serbia and took the most fertile land. This happened more intensively after 1 December 1918 when the Monarchy of Serbia Croatia and Slovenia was created. Before this, in 1860-1895 again, hundreds of thousands of Albanians were evicted from the region of Southern Serbia (i.e villages around Nis, Leskovac etc were torched and the population killed). I know many Albanian families who know the villages their ancestors came from or were killed in!
I provided the above examples just to show, to the best of my understanding that the term demographic anomaly should not be used liberally in regions of turmoil and without insight knowledge of the facts.
In addition, you should know that Kosova became part of Serbia in 1945! After WW2 ended.
Indeed, Kosova is the poorest region in Europe and this is due to the fact that Milosevic and his regime (and even the Communists before him) thought that by starving the people, they would make them leave their homes (something similar happened here). Albanians were systematically sacked from their jobs because they would not sign their allegiance to the Serb state. In 1999, just before NATO intervened militarily, over 400.000 Serb police, army personnel and dozens of paramilitary groups (including ones from Russia, Greece and Romania) were present in Kosovo. The reason for this was not to quell the tiny rebellion of the KLA but again, to rid Kosova from Albanians. This is not a myth or hearsay as I know many Kosovar families who had to leave via this route. I do not think that the war in Kosova was engineered by the Western powers. I would say that if the western powers were not there, the Serbs would make up the majority of the province.
Someone might argue that one cannot go and declare breakaway regions independent states at their free will. However, Kosova is a special and unique case in history. I am a firm believer that come the next month, Kosovo will become an independent state and its independence will be recognised my the entire EU (Greece and Cyprus abstaining because of historical ties with Serbia). The future of both states is within the EU and both need to learn a lot about democracy and human right.
BTW, read a few articles in wiki and would have to say that they are greatly influenced by Serb propaganda.0 -
any chance of ireland in this new battlegroup going in there?0
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@Morlar,
It seems to me that you are putting in a huge amount of effort to try and brainwash people into believing ...
...and would have to say that they are greatly influenced by Serb propaganda.
You accuse me of trying to brainwash people, dismiss other peoples links as 'propaganda' and then cherry pick your way through isolated parts of recent history to back up your assertion that 'kosovo is a special and unique case in history' - and that is the sum total of your argument that where a demographic anomaly presents itself in a european country that they should be allowed to break away against the wishes of that country as a whole. Get real would you ?0 -
You accuse me of trying to brainwash people, dismiss other peoples links as 'propaganda' and then cherry pick your way through isolated parts of recent history to back up your assertion that 'kosovo is a special and unique case in history' - and that is the sum total of your argument that where a demographic anomaly presents itself in a european country that they should be allowed to break away against the wishes of that country as a whole. Get real would you ?
Apologies for using my own head.
I have used and use wikipedia for my profession for the past few years and I know what can be trusted there and what not. There is a link on Kosova rather then Kosovo on wiki. The Kosova one is created by Kosovars and is currently only in Albanian. Once it gets translated it will contain biased info as well.
As stated previously Kosova's future will be e precedent in recent European history. It was part of Serbia a few times throughout history but each time against the wishes of the majority population.
If you consider the "demographic explosion" of Kosovar Albanians as demographic anomaly, then you should ask yourself what you believe in.
One can go on with this discussion for a long time but whatever you or I think, Kosova will become legally independent soon.
I rest my case here and wish no further discussions with someone who speaks of a nation as anomaly.0 -
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Apologies for using my own head.
In other words 'well excuse me for being clever' - god how droll. You have no wish to discuss with somone who 'refers to a nation as an anomaly' ? The albanians in the serbian territory of kosovo are a demographic anomaly not a nation. Giving them a nation made up of serb territory against the wishes of the serbian people is unemocratic and immoral, and as mentioned earlier likely to lead to bloodshed. Here are a few points to consider about the new albanian regime you are eager to see instated against the democratic wishes of the serb people
As of 1945 the population in the serbian region of kosovo was roughly 50% serb, 50% albanian. I suppose you are going to claim that ethnic cleansing played no part in the 50% serb population becoming 10% serb over the course of a generation or so ? Of course it was systematic, to begin with under tito and the communists post ww2. No one is saying the serbs did not engage in criminality but the numbers speak for themselves, serbs went from 50% to 10% in 50 years and the albanians went from 50% to 90% I will let you honestly decide the degree of guilt that should be apportioned to each side regarding ethnic cleansing based on the outcome.
The so called kosovo liberation army (KLA or UCK) are extremist, expansionist islamic jihadists with links to osama bin laden (who visited albanian leaders as recently as 1995) and other so called 'foreign fighters' responsible for widespread rape of non muslim women, beheadings and a systematic programme of destruction of serbian christian churches in kosovo and other acts of ethnic cleansing against the christian serbs by the albanian muslims. You would propose to reward these people by giving them a country on the edge of europe ? These people want to see the destruction of christianity and the creation of an islamic empire reaching into europe.
The KLA/albanians have confirmed links to albanian mafia activities, drug smuggling and general criminality. You want to handover a so called 'drug gateway' nation at the edge of europe to corrupt mafia connected albanians ? You dont have to take my word for this - the german intelligence ministry in a leaked internal report has confirmed as much (links below).
Considering you dispute wiki as 'serb propaganda' here are some non wiki links for you to view:
systematic destruction of christian churches - short montage of before and after photographs
'Crucified Kosovo/ Shame In The Face Of Christian Europe'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK1aPvMsRmA
sacking of church (10 mins as several hundred muslims sack a substantial christian church)
Kosovo , Serbia: church set in flames by muslim Albanians 04
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkgHkxIfgBc
The Hidden Army Of Radical Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7L05geznoI
Saudi wahabi (extremist sharia sect) funding of mosques which are appearing in previously moderate kosovo ;
Kosovo - Emerging as a Bastion for Radical Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCAz6PW_h2k
US Reporter: Jihad In Bosnia/ Girls Raped/ Killed By Muslims
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZbp1PIkbAk
The Results Of The Muslim Jihad Fanaticism In Bosnia/ Europe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlET0DmTT8g
German intelligence report confirms Kosovo is rife with institutional infiltration by albanian mafia gangs
'Kosovo is a Criminal Enterprise'
http://byzantinesacredart.com/blog/2006/08/berliner-zeitung-kosovo.html
Original Berliner article in german
http://www.berlinonline.de/berliner-zeitung/archiv/.bin/dump.fcgi/2006/0807/politik/0037/index.html
"Seen from this perspective, according to German newspaper, it will be difficult for the international community to create genuine rule of law structures in Kosovo. Even in the future, Kosovo "will have a key role as transition point of drugs towards Western Europe."
Another source outlining kla links to drug smuggling, mafia activities and ethnic cleansing.
http://www.kosovo.net/spiegelflot.html
osama bin laden visits albania at behest of leaders
http://www.savekosovo.org/default.asp?p=6&leader=2&sp=510 -
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I have seen you do this so many timjes before. If a post comes along with a series of points or links you immediately throw out a one liner so that your post is the final word in the hope that people wont follow the links you dissaprove of.
So to recap your now ignoring all of the links./points above and saying that the KLA are not trying to establish an islamic kosovo ? All of the above links are incorrect ? Those links showing systematic destruction of christian churches are photoshop-ery - thats what your saying ? I think you need another guess as to who is the person spreading the fantasy bull**** here.0 -
I have seen you do this so many timjes before. If a post comes along with a series of points or links you immediately throw out a one liner so that your post is the final word in the hope that people wont follow the links you dissaprove of.
So to recap your now ignoring all of the links./points above and saying that the KLA are not trying to establish an islamic kosovo ? All of the above links are incorrect ? Those links showing systematic destruction of christian churches are photoshop-ery - thats what your saying ? I think you need another guess as to who is the person spreading the fantasy bull**** here.
People can follow you links. I can't possibly stop them or intend to in anyways. Strikes me as a bit paranoid that you think my post would actually stop people from looking at you links.
Its a common far right fantasy that Muslims are about to take over Europe. It means to me that anything you have posted is highly suspect imo. I see no point in reading any more of you posts or your links. That line I quoted show imo that your more interested in repeating typical far right paranoia. My opinion on this doesn't mean that others won't look at what you posted, just stating my opinion on your post.
Here is you quote again:Morlar wrote:These people want to see the destruction of christianity and the creation of an islamic empire reaching into europe.
You seemed to be suggesting that the Kosovans are out to take over Europe. I am sorry that is ridiculous in my opinion and is at best a far right fantasy that is echoed by BNP types the world over. If you want to post about some mass conspiracy that the Kosovans and Bin Laden are getting together to take over Europe, please do. I am not stopping you posting about it.0 -
Everyone please remember: attack the post, not the poster.0
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Perhaps - though I can think of no other reason why you would repeatedly throw out one line unsubstantial responses to lengthy posts.
Again you claim radical islam . . 'its just a fantasy' - completely ignoring all of the above evidence to the contrary.
Ps I did not begin the 'Total bull****' claims here - I just responded to it.
Here is the bit you did not respond to above . . .
to recap your now ignoring all of the links./points above and saying that the KLA are not trying to establish an islamic kosovo ? All of the above links are incorrect ? Those links showing systematic destruction of christian churches are photoshop-ery - thats what your saying ?0 -
Perhaps - though I can think of no other reason why you would repeatedly throw out one line unsubstantial responses to lengthy posts.
Again you claim radical islam . . 'its just a fantasy' - completely ignoring all of the above evidence to the contrary.
Ps I did not begin the 'Total bull****' claims here - I just responded to it.
Here is the bit you did not respond to above . . .
to recap your now ignoring all of the links./points above and saying that the KLA are not trying to establish an islamic kosovo ? All of the above links are incorrect ? Those links showing systematic destruction of christian churches are photoshop-ery - thats what your saying ?
I never called radical Islam a fantasy. Just your claims that Kosovans are trying to set up an Islamic empire with Osama (tm). That is what I take issue with that point specifically that the Kosovans are working with Osama.
Lets take a look at the sources for that particular claim, a bunch of Youtube videos and a random site called savekosovo.org who are citing the government of Serbia as there source. Not the most trust worthy sources.
I have not claimed half the things you said in your post btw. I find the sources you provide (with a couple of exceptions) to be untrustworthy. This is not to say that the Kosovans have not engaged in violence, they very clearly have. I personally find trying to link them to Osama to be ridiculous, the source you provide hardly fills me with confidence.
The Kosovans want an independent Kosova. Claims that they are doing Osama's bidding is ridiculous and is a right wing fantasy.
**EDIT**
to recap your now ignoring all of the links./points above and saying that the KLA are not trying to establish an islamic kosovo ? All of the above links are incorrect ? Those links showing systematic destruction of christian churches are photoshop-ery - thats what your saying ?
I never said that. I distrust your sources specifically. Thats all I have said. I have never said violence has not occurred, but that I distrust the links you provide.0 -
I have not claimed half the things you said in your post btw. I find the sources you provide (with a couple of exceptions) to be untrustworthy.
.......
Claims that they are doing Osama's bidding is ridiculous and is a right wing fantasy.
........ I distrust the links you provide.
Your response of 'I dont trust your sources' doesnt stand up to much.
Those sources include the german intelligence services internal report, skynews documentary/report, american media progammes and interviews, assorted video footage of christian churches being destroyed by muislim mobs, assorted photographic evidence of same with places and dates illustrating a pattern of systematic programme of islamic destruction of christian churches.
How is it footage on youtube any more unreliable than when it was originally broadcast on tv (skynews/american media etc) ?
Your response of 'I dont trust your sources' reminds me of another poster on this htread who was also pro-albanian who said that wiki was 'serb propaganda'.
It seems that if a source disagrees with the anti serb /pro muslim point of view then its progapanda or otherwise dismissed as unreliable. That doesnt address the legitimate concerns being raised.
You exagerrated my point that there are links between the KLA and al qaida (osama bin laden did visit albanian leaders in albania in 1995 - this doesnt mean I believe osamma bin laden is planning things on the ground in kosovo). But there ARE links to al qaida. Your way of denying this seems to be to exaggerate my point to where it becomes that I believe he is in a bunker addressing activities there - rather than addressing it.
There are also long standing documented links between with the albanian mafia, drug smuggling, criminality and so on - this is according to the german intelligence services (another source you dismiss as unreliable).
Maybe you can point out in which way those sources are unreliable ?
1)
systematic destruction of christian churches - short montage of before and after photographs
'Crucified Kosovo/ Shame In The Face Of Christian Europe' - this is a collection of before and after photos with names and dates how are they untrustworthy ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK1aPvMsRmA
2)
sacking of church (10 mins as several hundred muslims sack a substantial christian church)
Kosovo , Serbia: church set in flames by muslim Albanians 04 - this is home video footage is this source unreliable ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkgHkxIfgBc
3)
The Hidden Army Of Radical Islam - I would like to know which parts of this are unreliable before you try and dismiss them ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7L05geznoI
4)
Saudi wahabi (extremist sharia sect) funding of mosques which are appearing in previously moderate kosovo ;
Kosovo - Emerging as a Bastion for Radical Islam - parts that are unreliable ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCAz6PW_h2k
5)
US Reporter: Jihad In Bosnia/ Girls Raped/ Killed By Muslims - parts that are unreliable ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZbp1PIkbAk
6)
The Results Of The Muslim Jihad Fanaticism In Bosnia/ Europe - parts that are unreliable ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlET0DmTT8g
7)
German intelligence report confirms Kosovo is rife with institutional infiltration by albanian mafia gangs
'Kosovo is a Criminal Enterprise'
http://byzantinesacredart.com/blog/2...ng-kosovo.html
Original Berliner article in german
http://www.berlinonline.de/berliner-...037/index.html
German intelligence services report is unreliable how ?
8)
Another source outlining kla links to drug smuggling, mafia activities and ethnic cleansing.
http://www.kosovo.net/spiegelflot.html -
again unreliable how ?
9)
osama bin laden visits albania at behest of leaders - incorrect ?http://www.savekosovo.org/default.as...leader=2&sp=510 -
Anyone can post random stuff on Youtube. Who is to say the story there presenting is correct? Unless there from a main stream news source, all I have to go is the word of the person that is posting the video. I tend not to take random Youtube videos as evidence of anything. They are not reliable in any way shape or form. I am hardly going to take a random Youtube poster on there word. Wikipedia and Youtube are not reliable source of information. They never have been, they are easily dismissed due to there very nature.
Also notice how I said you posted a few reliable links as well. So, yes reports from main stream news are reliable, but not all those Youtube are from main stream news now aren't they?
How do you expect anyone to some how except Youtube videos as evidence of anything?
The German intelligence report is one of the reliable sources you posted btw.
So what we have in your post are a few linked youtube videos of dubious origin, and some of which are from proper news channels and linked to a bunch of clearly biased web sites and some how I am expected to accept what there saying as truth? Would you accept claims from a pro Kosovan Albanian web pages as telling the truth? I can easily find tons of links with ease, but I don't see much point in posting blatantly biased information.
I haven't claimed the Kosovans are Angels, they have certainly committed crimes. However, Serb government propoganda trying to link them to Osama is pretty blatant propoganda. Seems to be something there trying to do a lot of lately. Try and make it look like a nationalist movement is some sort of Islamist movement.0 -
Anyone can post random stuff on Youtube.
Youtube is the storage and means of transmission. The content was for the most part mainstream broadcast media, skynews and american media.
Again how does the content become less reliable depending on the means of transmission. The answer is it does not and you dont seem to have any kind of response to the range of points raised in those various media links.
The videos showing hundreds of muslims attacking christian churches are not fabricated.
The before and after photographs of the destruction of christian churches are not fabricated. They illustrate a systematic islamic destruction of christian chruches on scale that would be news to most people - and would go some way to explaining the demographic anomaly at the heart of the issue.
The other links relating to radical islamists/jihadis/albanian mafia in the region are also valid and yet to be addressed.
Again there were many links there - a mixture of mainstream and left of field. You have not pointed out where any of them are incorrect. It would be expected in that many links to have had a couple of non intentional innaccuracies - that in itself would not undermine the content however you have simply taken the easier option of attacking the transmission media rather than the content.
The other non-broadcast links there contain home video footage - you have no basis or credibility in pretending they were somehow cgi fabricated or otherwise falsified so instead you try undermine the credibility of the means of transmission rather than the content. You probably think I am repeating myself here but I am curious - you have dismissed the links as 'unreliable' & I would just like to know which exact links are unreliable and what part of video footage or photographic content is unreliable and in what way.0 -
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I already said videos from main stream source have some credibility. However, 2 videos seem to be about Bosnia, you even title them as such. I think that right there is pretty telling.
On what basis should I trusted random Youtube videos? They have no credibility. There is no need for cgi in a video or even alterations to misrepresent them btw, nor have a claimed that any alterations have been made to them. I have no idea if those videos are real or not. So again, why should I trust a random Internet video. You claim there true, fair enough. I don't simply can't accept random Youtube video's are truth. I am talking about the first 2 videos btw.
As I have said before you have posted some non-biased information. However, there is quite a lot of stuff from unreliable sources and other source with a blatant bias e.g. kosovo.net and savekosovo.org are both biased. Its take no more than a minute to see that. Explain to me why such biased source should be accepted as telling the truth? They very clearly have a certain pov they want to get across.
I have already stated which particular links I have problems with. I see no need to answer the same questions again.0 -
I already said videos from main stream source have some credibility. However, 2 videos seem to be about Bosnia, you even title them as such. I think that right there is pretty telling..
I didnt title them - that is their youtube title. It looks like you have an issue with these 2 then -
The Results Of The Muslim Jihad Fanaticism In Bosnia/ Europe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlET0DmTT8g
included in the above list as it relates initially to ethnic cleansing /murder of christian serb by muslims which si relevant in the wider context.
US Reporter: Jihad In Bosnia/ Girls Raped/ Killed By Muslims
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZbp1PIkbAk
As above - Is relevant as it relates to Christian serbs recovering from an attacky by 1000 soldiers of the muslim army - the massacre is discovered when the survivors who fled in panic return.
Its arguable whether those 2 should be included as strictly they relate to serbs in bosnia at the hands of muslims- (I would argue they are relevant in the wider context) however you still havent said which parts of which videos are falsified/unreliable.0 -
The thread is about Kosovo, not Bosnia. Why even post them? When they have no bearing on the actions of the Kosovans? I never said the information is any of the videos are falsified.
To make it very clear, video 1 and 2 are from Youtube posters. They could be telling the truth, they could also be lieing. They are random Youtube videos. Hardly damning evidence or particularly trust worthy.
Video 5 and 6 are about Bosnia and have no direct bearing on Kosovo.
So that 4 out 6 of your videos that I have problems with.
Then there are the outlandish claims of the Kosovans links to Osama and there intentions, which are Nationalist:Morlar wrote:The so called kosovo liberation army (KLA or UCK) are extremist, expansionist islamic jihadists with links to osama bin laden (who visited albanian leaders as recently as 1995) and other so called 'foreign fighters' responsible for widespread rape of non muslim women, beheadings and a systematic programme of destruction of serbian christian churches in kosovo and other acts of ethnic cleansing against the christian serbs by the albanian muslims. You would propose to reward these people by giving them a country on the edge of europe ? These people want to see the destruction of christianity and the creation of an islamic empire reaching into europe.
I highlighted the bits that I find outlandish. So explain to how this isn't the same sort of thing the BNP or other far right European groups trot out about Muslims on a regular basis? I think at a minimum what your saying is hyperbole and thats being charitable.
IMO you are trying to link a nationalist movement the KLA with Al Qaeda, hence the so called links with Osama. You then mention about the KLA (you refer to them as "these people") as trying to create an Islamic empire reaching into Europe and also the destruction of Christianity. Of course the KLA stated goals is independence from Serbia for Kosova and not to create an Islamic empire. Now, I am not saying the KLA are innocent of any crimes, but that they are nationalist group and not apart of a global Jihadist movement.
The source you provide is from savekosovo.org (for the Osama links to the KLA). Spending less than 5 minutes on this site will show that it has a very clear pro-Serbian bias and there source for the Osama meeting comes from the Serbian government. A government thats hardly trust worthy and has engaged in any number of war crimes itself.
You do highlight atrocities committed by the KLA as well as criminality in Kosova. I have no issues with such information as they came from credible sources.0 -
How is it that if I say something/anything I am asked to back it up with sources or its as if its made up from thin air. I dont see you or anyone else following that same standard of proof here. First of all wiki is not good enough as a source 'serb propaganda' so I multiple provide alternative sources and now they are not good enough either apparently. On the basis of what exactly ? Your say so - thats not good enough unless you can say in what way which link is innacurate you should accept they are legitimate. As previously mentioned in that many links I could live with one or two minor innaccuracies howeber they have yet to be pointed out if they exsist. Instead you want to discount them on the basis of where (youtube) some of the information is stored ?
Being generous I would say you just are not comfortable with some of the facts here and trying to de-legitimise the sources of information is one way to keep your blinkers on and avoid dealing with it.
The first clip is a series of before and after photographs showing systematic kla /muslim destruction of chrisitan churches - again you dont actually specify in what way that is unreliable. Unless this is some kind of serbian double bluff and the serbians destroyed their own churches en masse. Photographs faked ? If thats what your saying I dont think so.
Video 2 is a lengthy video clip that includes some outtakes that a journalist filmed while a massive christian church is dismantled crucifix by crucifix in the background by hundreds of albanian muslims. If your saying this one is unreliablen too I would like to know in what way - either that or just accept that it is obviously legitimate.
It is a long video clip with various angles and zooms - the only way it could be unreliable would be if it were faked which it is not. If your claiming it has been faked I would like you to back that up with something. I have provided the original link illustrating this happened - its your turn to provide a link or some kind of evidence to say it didnt.
Kosovo is in serbia - muslim albanians are in the process of trying to remove it from the serbs so in that context links to 2 articles about muslim ethnic cleansing of serbs are relevant when discussing a demographic anomaly of muslim imbalance within christian serbia.
I am not the one connecting the kla with islamic extremism - I am pointing out the links the connections are logical and also well established. OF course this is about islamic expansionism. Its an islamic minority trying to create a new muslim state on the edge of europe. Describing that as islamist expansionism seems to be literally correct.
Osama bin laden has met kla and albanian leaders in tirana - this is verified on the web and its covered at more than one particular site - you did not mention that I needed to provide multiple links to verify fairly common knowldege.
Here are 2 other sources to verify that (this will save you about 3 seconds on google)
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/deliso5.html
http://www.espritdecorps.ca/new_page_221.htm0 -
Fairly common knowledge?
Here from you own link:
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/deliso5.html"When we throw in the possibility that various cells of Osama Bin Laden’s terrorist international are operating in this part of the world, the process of retribution against American assets will increase if America moves against the Greater Albania project."
Various links are claimed in the articles to Osama and Al Qaeda. There were Arab fighters in Bosnia and Kosovo. There is no doubt about that. However, how does this suddenly make the KLA a apart of a world wide Jihadist movement? These Jihadist movements tend to have a habit of announcing exactly who they are and what they intend to do and yet the KLA still claim to be a nationalist movement. Also, Arab fighters do no equal Al Qaeda or even Osama. Due to the nature of Al Qaeda, its very easy to make claims about various groups and call them Al Qaeda.
Also, once more I am not denying that Kosovan Albanians have committed crimes against Serbs in Kosovo. 2 of your videos were about Bosnia and are not crimes commited by Kosovan Albanians. I am not ignoring that they happened, I am question what does it have to do with the actions of the KLA who are hardly responsible for the crimes of Bosnian Muslim forces. Serbian have had crimes committed against them, there is no doubt in that. The main difference is that Serbia is still hiding her war criminals, including the man directly responsible for genocide against Bosnian Muslims. The Bosniak general who was in charge of Arab fighters is being tried for war crimes and yet Serbia continues to hide its criminals.
Again Kosovan Albanians have committed crimes and I don't deny that they have.
As for your first 2 videos. You claim that they are telling the truth. All I have to go on is the word of yourself and the Youtube poster that is video are what they are claiming to be. Explain why I should accept a video posted by a Youtube video of what you admit is home made footage? A comment below the second video claims it was an Albanian church. Would you expect someone ot take that comment at face value? I would suspect not. Perhaps you should provide evidence that comment is false. I know its ridiculous to ask such a thing since its a Youtube comment by a random user, but seeing as we are to accept (home made) Youtube videos from random users we may as well accept comments from random users as fact as well.
Also, trying to pass off a nationalist movement as such as the KLA as part of a wider plan to create a Islamic empire is ridiculous. The Kosovan Albanians want a independent Kosova. They have stated there intention as such. Foreign fighters being used by the KLA, I agree this is true, but does the KLA taking any help it can mean it shares the same goal as them, or are they just doing anything to gain independence.0 -
You have cherry picked one line of one link - this does not undermine the concensus and weight of the rest. .There were Arab fighters in Bosnia and Kosovo.....does this suddenly make the KLA a apart of a world wide Jihadist movement
By definition yes it does. Arab fighters, or mujahedeen/jihadists as they are also known, ARE the jihadist movement. Unless your going to come up with some convoluted formula for proving that there is magically no connection between jihadists and the 'jihadist movement'.
You claimed that the clip showing the destruction of a serb church by muslim albanians was first of all unreliable for some unknown reason, and then many posts and hours later that it is in fact an albanian church and not a serb one in kosovo (as if that would somehow make it ok) on the basis of a suddenly super-reliable anonymous comment posted to youtube, this is in addition to the earlier claims by you that the video clip was somehow unreliable. Your right that is plain ridiculous. And here is some further evidence on it - again I dont see anyone else on here being asked to provide this ridiculous a level of proof. Here is a reprint from an article published in praha news by journalists with czech kfor forces :
http://www.kosovo.net/pogrom_march/podujevo1/page_01.htm
"We were defending a Serb Orthodox church in the town of Podujevo against a mob of 500 Albanians, but there were too many for us," he recalled. "When they broke through the wall [around the church], we got orders to retreat.
"They smashed everything inside, including our communications center, made a big pile in front and set it on fire. Then they turned their attention to the adjacent Serb cemetery. They knocked over tombstones, dug up the coffins and scattered the bones in them."
......
By Eva Munk
For The Prague Post
(March 25, 2004)
Feel free to invent some new ridiculously unlikely and covoluted reason why that clip is still somehow unreliable.
You keep saying 'I dont deny albanians/kla committed crimes' as if this is some kind of heartfelt admission of major proportions - the fact is that its literally undeniable fact that they did. So your concession to 'fact' means the sum total of nothing. Its your dragged by-the-fingernails reluctance to accept what is repeatedly proven to be reasonable evidence of some of the more noticeable examples of kla /albanian muslim criminality & ethnic cleansing that is worrying.0 -
How is an comment from one Youtube user any less reliable than a video posted by another user? Why is one youtube user more reliable than another? Why don't you accept the comment as being reliable? It has as much reliability as the posted video. You can't comment on Youtube without registering, both user have at least done that. Why is one random Youtuber more reliable than another?
The Kosovo.net site even with its bias is far more reliable than Youtube. I do accept that churches were burned and thank you for the link in this case.0 -
I do accept that churches were burned and thank you for the link in this case.
You mean a serb church burned by albanian muslims in kosovo - slightly more specific than 'churches were burned'. This is precisely what I have been saying all along. That is one example - another clip there that you also dismissed as unreliable shows many more (with before and after photographs and location information).0 -
You mean a serb church burned by albanian muslims in kosovo - slightly more specific than 'churches were burned'. This is precisely what I have been saying all along. That is one example - another clip there that you also dismissed as unreliable shows a few dozen more (with before and after photographs and location information).
Again since when have home made Youtube video been deemed a completely reliable and unbiased information? Simply put I will never accept Youtube as a completely reliable source, especially when it comes to home made videos. Just because you say the videos are reliable doesn't make it so.0 -
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I can no longer tell if you are finally agreeing with the reliabillity of the sources I have posted so far that christians have been systematically ethnically cleansed from kosovo. You seem to be heading in that direction albeit slowly. Here are some more /different links to help you on your way (considering your aversion to media video footage thats stored on youtube).
From the website of St. Luke's Orthodox Mission in canada
http://www.sv-luka.org/Kosovo2000Part1.pdf
“More than 80 Orthodox churches have been either completely destroyed
or severely damaged since the end of the war. The ancient churches, many
of which had survived 500 years of Ottoman Moslem rule, could not survive
8 months of the internationally guaranteed peace. Regretfully, all this
happens in the presence of KFOR and UN.”
From the US Congress Statement of Bishop Artemije of the
Diocise of Raska and Prizren, Kosovo and Metohija
Helsinki Commiission Hearing
February 28, 2000 Washington D.C.
________________
From the national review online :
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/krnjevicmiskovic200403190842.asp
March 19, 2004, 8:42 a.m.
Kristallnacht in Kosovo
The burning of churches raises questions about independence.
By Damjan de Krnjevic-Miskovic
A pogrom started in Europe this week, with one U.N. official being quoted as saying, "Kristallnacht is under way in Kosovo." Serbs are being murdered and their 800-year-old churches are aflame. Much of the Christian heritage in Kosovo and Metohija is on fire and could be lost forever. By these deeds too many of Kosovo's Albanians have shown that their rhetoric about "democracy" and "multiethnicity" is false, and demonstrates also that the international community's acceptance of them has been naïve.
(Author is Damjan de Krnjevic-Miskovic is the managing editor of The National Interest and a senior fellow at the Institute on Religion and Public Policy)
___________
http://www.kosovo.net/systematic_destruction.html
Carl K. Savich
December, 2002
Introduction:
Erasing the history of Christianity in Kosovo and Macedonia
On November 17, 2002 UNMIK police reported that the Serbian Orthodox Church, St. Basil the Miracle Worker of Ostrog (Sveti Vasilije Ostrovski) in Ljubovo village between Istok and Banja near Pec, had been totally destroyed with explosives, with only the front façade still intact. In Djurakovac, 30 miles west of Pristina, a second Serbian Orthodox Church was bombed/mined and heavily damaged, the Church of All Serbian Saints. The interior of the church was gutted following three explosions. This brought the number of Orthodox Churches destroyed or damaged since NATO and the UN occupied Kosovo to 112. This has been an unprecedented act of genocide. The planned and systematic destruction of the Christian history of Kosovo-Metohija under US/NATO/EU sponsorship. Churches that had survived for over 500 years under Ottoman Turkish rule were reduced to rubble under the protection of 30,000 NATO troops.
___
As an fyi if you examine the photographs you will see that these are not minor prefab churches - in fact they are substantial buildings & many of them are in the size ballpark of st patricks cathedral.0
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