New motor tax and VRT regime. Links + calculations

-Chris-

smccarrick wrote: »

the only reason it would not be rolled out to all motorists on renewal of motor tax is because its impossible to get accurate CO2 measures for existing Irish cars on the road. I proved this wrong- by sourcing certificates as far back as 1998 (now from 4 manufacturers)

Absolutely correct, he was talking through his hat! A poorly researched excuse.

smccarrick wrote: »

and based on this- suggested that the Minister allow all motorists to opt-in to the new scheme where the appropriate documentation existed. Unfortunately the Minister seems preoccupied with addressing industry concerns, and not the concerns of the motoring public.

I would say that Cowan's not letting him, would you let the Environment Minister give away one of your sources of revenue? That revenue's gotta be made up from somewhere!

smccarrick wrote: »

I also suggested that if it were a genuine environmental levy- that motor tax would be abolished altogether and replaced with a couple of pence on a litre of fuel- which would be an accurate tax on people's fuel consumption. This was also ignored.

This has been suggested repeatedly, and makes the most sense out of all the suggestions, but is it politically possible? Harney can't shake up the health system, Martin barely got the smoking ban passed, taxi-deregulation nearly caused riots. A move from road tax to fuel-based tax collection would make everything else look like a walk in the park.
I think it's too big a job for the gov't.

smccarrick wrote: »

Thats why I'm annoyed.

ninty9er

smccarrick wrote: »

Whats wrong with us?- It was sold as an environmental exercise. I am not in favour of preferential treatment being given to imported cars- the point which was made by the Minister is that the only reason it would not be rolled out to all motorists on renewal of motor tax is because its impossible to get accurate CO2 measures for existing Irish cars on the road. I proved this wrong- by sourcing certificates as far back as 1998 (now from 4 manufacturers) and based on this

That's all well and good, but how do you plan on putting that info onto a VRC/VLC that's sitting in my kitchen cupboard??

mylestheslasher

ninty9er wrote: »

You still pay the Lower VRT. If it's an Audi probably around 22%/24% so there's a 6%-8% VRT saving. The Annual Motor Tax remains on the Basis of CC, becasue that's the basis of the exact same "lower emmissions" Irish car will be paying.

You're getting an easy ride on VRT, what the fu<k is wrong with some people....never fupping happy:rolleyes:

What the Fu<k is wrong? Listen, you are a FF man/woman right so saying one thing and doing the opposite, breaking promises and telling fibs is quite normal for you probably. The rest of us like to think when a minister says something he might mean it. I'll give you an example. Based on the new tax law reform you headed to the UK and purchased a 2.2l diesel with emissions of 140 g/km. Your tax should now be €290. Gormley has succeeded in getting you to buy a car with low emissions. However, now since he has gone back on his word you have to pay a whopping €790 per annum - a full €500 per annum more for every year of the cars life. That is what the Fu<k is wrong. Maybe you need to stop being such a sheep and look at the whole issue instead of pulling along the party line all the time.

mylestheslasher

Oh - as for a solution. The only way out of this total and utter mess is to adjust the system so that every car that is say 10 years old (or however far the records go back) is included in the scheme. There is no other way.

-Chris-

mylestheslasher wrote: »

What the Fu<k is wrong? Listen, you are a FF man/woman right so saying one thing and doing the opposite, breaking promises and telling fibs is quite normal for you probably. The rest of us like to think when a minister says something he might mean it. I'll give you an example. Based on the new tax law reform you headed to the UK and purchased a 2.2l diesel with emissions of 140 g/km. Your tax should now be €290. Gormley has succeeded in getting you to buy a car with low emissions. However, now since he has gone back on his word you have to pay a whopping €790 per annum - a full €500 per annum more for every year of the cars life. That is what the Fu<k is wrong. Maybe you need to stop being such a sheep and look at the whole issue instead of pulling along the party line all the time.

Chill it out man! Personal attacks aren't necessary here...

mylestheslasher

AudiChris wrote: »

Chill it out man! Personal attacks aren't necessary here...

It wasn't meant as a personal attack on one person but rather on the sheep vote the FF rely on. I mean if the government had to have come out with the complete opposite to what they have I have no doubt the FF supports would be on here justifying it anyway. Towing the party line is like a duty to a large proportion of the FF support (and FG too if the truth be known). Free thinking is frowned upon it seems to me.

ninty9er

mylestheslasher wrote: »

What the Fu<k is wrong? Listen, you are a FF man/woman right so saying one thing and doing the opposite, breaking promises and telling fibs is quite normal for you probably. The rest of us like to think when a minister says something he might mean it. I'll give you an example. Based on the new tax law reform you headed to the UK and purchased a 2.2l diesel with emissions of 140 g/km. Your tax should now be €290. Gormley has succeeded in getting you to buy a car with low emissions. However, now since he has gone back on his word you have to pay a whopping €790 per annum - a full €500 per annum more for every year of the cars life. That is what the Fu<k is wrong. Maybe you need to stop being such a sheep and look at the whole issue instead of pulling along the party line all the time.

Check your facts. IF you had already bought said car or intended purchasing anytime up until July there was never any chance of you getting the €290 tax rate so no, your tax should now be €790 as it always would have been.

The change to the system affects nobody who has already bought a car or intends to do so before July

So :p:p

The_Conductor

ninty9er wrote: »

your tax should now be €790 as it always would have been.

Check your facts- this is incorrect.
The previous announcement, along with documentation from the Department, referenced EU Certificates of Conformity for older cars, as a manner of proving their CO2 emissions and allowing them into the new scheme. mylestheslasher's information- despite the very aggressive posting style s/he has, is in fact correct.

ninty9er

smccarrick wrote: »

Check your facts- this is incorrect.
The previous announcement, along with documentation from the Department, referenced EU Certificates of Conformity for older cars, as a manner of proving their CO2 emissions and allowing them into the new scheme. mylestheslasher's information- despite the very aggressive posting style s/he has, is in fact correct.

My point was that that would not have applied to someone who already bought a car. They now have 3 months notice so they know exactly what the costs involved will be.

The_Conductor

ninty9er wrote: »

My point was that that would not have applied to someone who already bought a car. They now have 3 months notice so they know exactly what the costs involved will be.

My point was that the original proposal would have entitled you to take in a pre-2008 car and tax it based on its CO2 emissions. I argued to allow this concession for secondhand cars be applied to Irish cars also, where appropriate documentation could be produced (and then proceeded to prove it could be produced for pretty much anything across the board).

N8

mylestheslasher wrote: »

You buy the diesel in UK now when prices are low. You park it up somewhere - in the north in my case. You bring it down South in July and then you pay the lower VRT/Tax. That was the plan.

Fair enough.

AudiChris wrote: »

That plan still works. Bring it down post-July, pay the lower VRT on the lower OMSP. Price it cheaper than all the Irish cars, make your profit.

The only change is that now your car is taxed on the exact same basis as everyone else's car.

No M8 the plan does not still work. If I had have known that gormless a44hole was going to back track I would have bought a diesel 1.9 or lower instead of using the guide on emissions – now I am lumped with €722 (+ the 10%) increase instead of €430.

ninty9er wrote: »

You still pay the Lower VRT. If it's an Audi probably around 22%/24% so there's a 6%-8% VRT saving. The Annual Motor Tax remains on the Basis of CC, becasue that's the basis of the exact same "lower emmissions" Irish car will be paying.

You're getting an easy ride on VRT, what the fu<k is wrong with some people....never fupping happy:rolleyes:

You are right too M8 I am not happy that I have taken these announcements to be on the button and went and bought a particular car on the strength of their word, only to find out I am screwed for the €400 per year that I acted against.

smccarrick wrote: »

I also suggested that if it were a genuine environmental levy- that motor tax would be abolished altogether and replaced with a couple of pence on a litre of fuel- which would be an accurate tax on people's fuel consumption. This was also ignored.

I am beginning to think there is very little genuine about the greens.

mylestheslasher wrote: »

I'll give you an example. Based on the new tax law reform you headed to the UK and purchased a 2.2l diesel with emissions of 140 g/km. Your tax should now be €290. Gormley has succeeded in getting you to buy a car with low emissions. However, now since he has gone back on his word you have to pay a whopping €790 per annum - a full €500 per annum more for every year of the cars life. That is what the Fu<k is wrong.

Well put.

ninty9er wrote: »

Check your facts. IF you had already bought said car or intended purchasing anytime up until July there was never any chance of you getting the €290 tax rate so no, your tax should now be €790 as it always would have been.

The change to the system affects nobody who has already bought a car or intends to do so before July

So :p:p

I assume you are basing your smart ass attitude answer on the VRT payable next day.

I bought a car on this scenario given to me by the greens and ff. But hey your attitude pretty much sums up politicians' attitudes to us all. Some day you ll stop being a baby ff and graduate from ogra to fully fledged liar and cheat too.

The point is we feel screwed. That's because we have been.

astraboy

Backdating the scheme to older cars is both excessively difficult and unnecessary. Who in their right mind would pay 2000E a year tax on a 99 Misti evo for example?! I agree the roll out of this has been a confusing mess at best, but sticking with CC based taxes for older cars is the best compromise. However, if you bought a low emitting diesel you should have the right to "opt in" if your car is built after 01 fro instance. As for backdating it to cars already registered, thats never going to happen. Cars like my 00 alfa will go up to 1000E a year road tax. Driving an older car is nearly better for the environment overall, so the upkeep of older cars should be encouraged.

As for the current mess, well 5 years down the road there will be a lot more second hand cars on the road under the Co2 system, and you can bring in a 2008 BMW and get it under the CO2 VRT system cheaper then under the old and unfair cc system.

Finally, VRT/Road tax should be abolished and fuel taxed. Yes fuel would be more expensive. But you pay as you drive and you pay as you consume. I drive my car less then 3 days a week yet still pay twice the road tax then a person in a 1.3 driving every day. This has F all to do with the environment and my use of the roads I pay for is more then the person using the roads more.

mylestheslasher

astraboy wrote: »

Backdating the scheme to older cars is both excessively difficult and unnecessary. Who in their right mind would pay 2000E a year tax on a 99 Misti evo for example?! I agree the roll out of this has been a confusing mess at best, but sticking with CC based taxes for older cars is the best compromise. However, if you bought a low emitting diesel you should have the right to "opt in" if your car is built after 01 fro instance. As for backdating it to cars already registered, thats never going to happen. Cars like my 00 alfa will go up to 1000E a year road tax. Driving an older car is nearly better for the environment overall, so the upkeep of older cars should be encouraged.

As for the current mess, well 5 years down the road there will be a lot more second hand cars on the road under the Co2 system, and you can bring in a 2008 BMW and get it under the CO2 VRT system cheaper then under the old and unfair cc system.

Finally, VRT/Road tax should be abolished and fuel taxed. Yes fuel would be more expensive. But you pay as you drive and you pay as you consume. I drive my car less then 3 days a week yet still pay twice the road tax then a person in a 1.3 driving every day. This has F all to do with the environment and my use of the roads I pay for is more then the person using the roads more.

To a point I agree but what if you are like me and you have no choice but to drive because there is no public transport. The roads you drive on 80% of the time haven't had a lick of tar in 10 years, have dangerous bends, no cats eyes and basically rattle the ****e out of your car. When I meet a truck on the road I have to almost stop to let them bye. This is life for most people from Donegal, Leitrim, West Sligo, Mayo, Galway and so on. I think it would be extremely unfair to penalise people for driving without first putting some public transport in place. You are right about one thing anyway. This has F all to do with the environment.

Has anyone else apart from me emailed Mr Gormley? He is isn't replying to me. Well I am going to send it again every day from now until July until he does.

The_Conductor

mylestheslasher wrote:

Has anyone else apart from me emailed Mr Gormley? He is isn't replying to me. Well I am going to send it again every day from now until July until he does.

In reply to a 4 page letter I got a photocopy of a press statement he gave. Apart from anything else I am appalled at the lack of service displayed by the Department towards answering our letters/e-mails......

N8

mylestheslasher wrote: »

You are right about one thing anyway. This has F all to do with the environment.

no doubt

mylestheslasher wrote: »

Has anyone else apart from me emailed Mr Gormley? He is isn't replying to me. Well I am going to send it again every day from now until July until he does.

smccarrick wrote: »

In reply to a 4 page letter I got a photocopy of a press statement he gave. Apart from anything else I am appalled at the lack of service displayed by the Department towards answering our letters/e-mails......

why would he answer yours, ours ,my email? He is a politician and they do want they want. And here was me thinking the greens were some sort of different animal. Another bunch of ba$tards.

ninty9er

smccarrick wrote: »

In reply to a 4 page letter I got a photocopy of a press statement he gave. Apart from anything else I am appalled at the lack of service displayed by the Department towards answering our letters/e-mails......

The Department MUST answer all queries. It must answer your relevant query, while it must also answer to people who have no idea what they're on about and those who are bitching abou having bought a car in the UK 2 weeks ago and now their tax is going up....NOT TRUE...it was NEVER COMING DOWN.

Just like queues in a bank a lunchtime, the time it takes for a response is directly proportional to how many people are in the line ahead of you.

Basically wait your turn. and to the "honourable gentleman" , lets call him, who will send the same factually incorrect email for the next 3 and a half months, it's not going to make one bit of difference to your response time. You may even fall to the bottom of the "to-do" list if you keep emailing each day.

N8 - abuse reported - YOU are the one with your facts wrong, so don't go accusing me of being a liar and a cheat.

The_Conductor

Its almost like queuing at your fictional bank queue to withdraw money and getting a leaflet on the merits of stainless steel kitchen sinks when you get to the counter when you ask for your money. They are responding- acknowledging the letter in the first instance, which is fine- but then the actual response is totally irrelevant to the letter/questions asked. They were quick at sending it out though- but given that its totally irrelevant, they should have saved the postage and the paper......

N8

ninty9er wrote: »

The Department MUST answer all queries. It must answer your relevant query, while it must also answer to people who have no idea what they're on about and those who are bitching abou having bought a car in the UK 2 weeks ago and now their tax is going up....NOT TRUE...it was NEVER COMING DOWN..

eh yes he did say it was....

Here take a read:

In delivering his first Carbon budget today, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Mr John Gormley, TD, announced a move to a motor tax system based on CO2 emissions.

For new cars and pre-owned imports registered from 1 July 2008, motor tax charges will be determined on the basis of seven CO2 bands.

http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/MotorTax/News/MainBody,16223,en.htm

ninty9er wrote: »

N8 - abuse reported - YOU are the one with your facts wrong, so don't go accusing me of being a liar and a cheat.

read my post again above, it seems everyone else here might be right and in regard to cheats and liars:

N8 wrote: »

But hey your attitude pretty much sums up politicians' attitudes to us all. Some day you ll stop being a baby ff and graduate from ogra to fully fledged liar and cheat too.

does it say you are a liar and a cheat - no - you must work hard to graduate as one in ff :p:p

Lets get back on topic - we have been screwed by our politicians - yet again....

ninty9er

N8 wrote: »

eh yes he did say it was....

Here take a read:

In delivering his first Carbon budget today, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Mr John Gormley, TD, announced a move to a motor tax system based on CO2 emissions.

For new cars and pre-owned imports registered from 1 July 2008, motor tax charges will be determined on the basis of seven CO2 bands.

http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/MotorTax/News/MainBody,16223,en.htm

read my post again above, it seems everyone else here might be right and in regard to cheats and liars:



does it say you are a liar and a cheat - no - you must work hard to graduate as one in ff :p:p

So if you read what you posted yourself, you will see that this has NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER ON THOSE WHO IMPORTED ALREADY OR INTEND TO BEFORE JULY ON THE BASIS OF CHANGES, people such as that were stupid to do so and badly researched.

Actually to become a fully fledged liar and cheat, I would have to be a liar and cheat in the first place. Learn how to use the language or apologise!

mylestheslasher

ninty9er wrote: »

So if you read what you posted yourself, you will see that this has NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER ON THOSE WHO IMPORTED ALREADY OR INTEND TO BEFORE JULY ON THE BASIS OF CHANGES, people such as that were stupid to do so and badly researched.

Actually to become a fully fledged liar and cheat, I would have to be a liar and cheat in the first place. Learn how to use the language or apologise!

I wouldn't waste my time with this guy. Seems you are already completely brain washed by FF propaganda (re your 3 hand picked little facts in your signature). I am guessing you were brought up in a FF household and brainwashed before you could think for yourself, like so many others in the sheep vote. Any of us here could easily put down some comparison facts on say Health between here and say Cuba or Sweden if you like. Ogra FF seems to me to be a distant relative to Hitler youth. We are right and you are wrong - full stop. Even when something is in balck and white. I suppose the FF youth will always take their lead from the chief liar and cheat Mr Ahern.

ninty9er

mylestheslasher wrote: »

I wouldn't waste my time with this guy. Seems you are already completely brain washed by FF propaganda (re your 3 hand picked little facts in your signature). I am guessing you were brought up in a FF household and brainwashed before you could think for yourself, like so many others in the sheep vote.

Is that another way of saying you know you're wrong but don't want to admit it outright.

On my sig, it is a response to JHMEG's sig. However his is aimed purely at people buying cars, and not the average car if it's costing 10k to VRT.

I got the figures myself, becasue I have been home from work sick all week and watched Alastair Darling's Budget on Wednesday, it put me in a position to make comparisons. Where do you get your information?? Wikipedia:D:D

N8

what an arrogant little self reliever you are

Seth Brundle

mylestheslasher wrote: »

I wouldn't waste my time with this guy. Seems you are already completely brain washed by FF propaganda (re your 3 hand picked little facts in your signature). I am guessing you were brought up in a FF household and brainwashed before you could think for yourself, like so many others in the sheep vote. Any of us here could easily put down some comparison facts on say Health between here and say Cuba or Sweden if you like. Ogra FF seems to me to be a distant relative to Hitler youth. We are right and you are wrong - full stop. Even when something is in balck and white. I suppose the FF youth will always take their lead from the chief liar and cheat Mr Ahern.

N8 wrote: »

what an arrogant little self reliever you are

Lets get back to discussing VRT, etc. and stop taking digs at other posters.

Although he may follow FF, I don't think ninty9er is responsible for the decisions made by our government.
Any more digs will result in bans.

Nodnedlog

I don't think we should be wasting time arguing about what was done.
The indisputable facts are: The amendments to the proposed new road tax system back tracked in 2 ways:

1.It now applies to all 2008 reg cars if people wish it to.

2. Pre-owned pre-2008 imported cars cannot opt into the new system.

The changes were brought about due to consultation/lobbying etc...(most probably by industry concerns and local govt since this is their bread and butter). I did put in my tupence worth by emails as I'm entitled to but haven't heard back. Ordinary folk don't have the same access to govt as others. As a side issue I did ring Green party HQ in Jan to see if they could clear up the confusion and non other than Dan Boyle told me importing sounded like a great idea (in fairness he was at least taking calls then).

The first change was shouted out the second change whispered, like the elephant in the room.

I also bought a NI low emissions car intending to reg it post July down here. It's 1.5 and 139gms/CO2, a loss of approx €300 annually, but also it cuts the resale potential of the car.

I know lots of others like me who made their decision based on the first announcement, its not naive or stupid or arrogant to make a decision based on a government announcement (or is it?).

I know I am not alone in my annoyance and that it is justified and that I am not just being a spoilt child.

I am basically apolitical, I think I have just given up on them all. This isn't personal abuse by the way(for fear of being banned) but could ninty9er please not use that icon on his posts, it hurts my eyes. It is afterall a motoring forum. Thanks for listening.

-Chris-

Can I ask what the logic of buying a depreciating asset as soon as the budget was announced was? Why buy a car in Jan and leave it lying up for 6 month instead of buying a car in June/July?

Even if you bought the exact same car, it'll be 6 months cheaper if you wait till July instead of Jan.

daisychain

Ok call me naive but can "they" do a u-turn on a budget announcement just like that?
just supposing I was unemployed, in receipt of €whatever in unemployment benefit per week, budget announcement says extra €10 pw for ppl on the dole in 2008 I say yippee, then suddenly no actually, we'll give u €15 less instead, take it or leave it.

FYI I paid a £Stg500 deposit on a 2.0 toyota avensis this week, with the intention also of parking it up in the UK til after july 1st.

So basically the advise I'm looking for now is, should I pay the remaining £11k on it @ today's exchange rates and 20% VRT in july and €(I don't even know what the annual tax would be had budgeted for €290 based on the new emissions system) or just cut my losses and tell the garage in the UK to keep their £500.

We had a 2.o car years ago and sold it (for a song!) as we found the road tax quite a burden so got smaller cars which we found then to be very impractical with children and all their bag and baggage.........

All advice gratefully appreciated (desperate here!)

Nodnedlog

AudiChris wrote: »

Can I ask what the logic of buying a depreciating asset as soon as the budget was announced was? Why buy a car in Jan and leave it lying up for 6 month instead of buying a car in June/July?

Even if you bought the exact same car, it'll be 6 months cheaper if you wait till July instead of Jan.

I'm a fool, what can I say? Thats why I never play the stock market!
I wont go into the full story here but I'll just say it was worth my while when I did it.
I'll still be pretty ok if they leave the proposed vrt change as is! Pity about the road tax though, as said before it should have been opt in/out for vehicles with COC - it's as simple as that.

FreudianSlippers

Nodnedlog wrote: »

I don't think we should be wasting time arguing about what was done.
The indisputable facts are: The amendments to the proposed new road tax system back tracked in 2 ways:

1.It now applies to all 2008 reg cars if people wish it to.

2. Pre-owned pre-2008 imported cars cannot opt into the new system.

The changes were brought about due to consultation/lobbying etc...(most probably by industry concerns and local govt since this is their bread and butter). I did put in my tupence worth by emails as I'm entitled to but haven't heard back. Ordinary folk don't have the same access to govt as others. As a side issue I did ring Green party HQ in Jan to see if they could clear up the confusion and non other than Dan Boyle told me importing sounded like a great idea (in fairness he was at least taking calls then).

The first change was shouted out the second change whispered, like the elephant in the room.

I also bought a NI low emissions car intending to reg it post July down here. It's 1.5 and 139gms/CO2, a loss of approx €300 annually, but also it cuts the resale potential of the car.

I know lots of others like me who made their decision based on the first announcement, its not naive or stupid or arrogant to make a decision based on a government announcement (or is it?).

I know I am not alone in my annoyance and that it is justified and that I am not just being a spoilt child.

I am basically apolitical, I think I have just given up on them all. This isn't personal abuse by the way(for fear of being banned) but could ninty9er please not use that icon on his posts, it hurts my eyes. It is afterall a motoring forum. Thanks for listening.

That is all pretty awful. Is there no way to get the government to reconsider allowing the new regime to be applied to all imported cars (new and used)?

E92

It's not awful. As I've said before, the arse would fall out of the used car market if we allowed what you're saying to happen.

It would be especially unfair on those who bought low CO2 diesels, to find out that those who got a conversion on the road to Damascus and now decided to go "green" at a later date and import a used diesel car.

And backdating the system would be massively unfair on the 70+% of people who bought petrols last year, and in previous years.

There are winners and losers in every system change, and a line in the sand has to be drawn. Unfortunately those who bought new cars last year will have the most to moan about.

Anyone who bought a low emissions car like an EfficientDynamics BMW has the most to lose out on though.

FreudianSlippers

E92 wrote: »

It's not awful. As I've said before, the arse would fall out of the used car market if we allowed what you're saying to happen.

It would be especially unfair on those who bought low CO2 diesels, to find out that those who got a conversion on the road to Damascus and now decided to go "green" at a later date and import a used diesel car.

And backdating the system would be massively unfair on the 70+% of people who bought petrols last year, and in previous years.

There are winners and losers in every system change, and a line in the sand has to be drawn. Unfortunately those who bought new cars last year will have the most to moan about.

Anyone who bought a low emissions car like an EfficientDynamics BMW has the most to lose out on though.

I'm not sure that I agree. If the government is really doing this to positively effect climate change this is not the way to do it.
Especially dangling a good deal in front of everyone and then changing it at a later date.
If the government really wants to be fair and do something to get people to buy more fuel efficient and less polluting cars, the tax should be changed on all cars purchased starting in July regardless of age on a scaled CO2 emissions and km/l regime.