New motor tax and VRT regime. Links + calculations

ninty9er

locteau wrote: »

Hi Guys,

I wanted to pay my VRT for the last few months, but I am appealing the cost and wrote this letter for the appeal. I don't want to make a big foss of it, I am keene to pay but I think they need to be fair.

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To whom it may concern,

I wish to query the registration charge of my car. Last April I imported a 1981 Porsche 924 automatic, which is a classic car and will be a vintage in the next 2-3 years.

The car was not in driveable condition when I brought it in and had to be transported to my house where I planned to restore it. There is still electrical and lights work to be done on it.

The value given was around €2,800 as a car like this is only valued at most €1,000 with a MOT in the UK. I do not believe that there is a €1800 difference especially that my car was not in a state of driving so far.

The estimated value of the car also include the government tax as stated in your website, so on order to correctly calculate the VRT to be charged this should be deducted from the estimate value price which significantly reduces the amount to be paid.

Applying the maximum charge of 36% is unfair as I cannot be responsible because car manufacturers did not give Co2 emission readings 27 years ago. It is not fair practice to be accountable for a new regulation which did not exist twenty years ago, and especially when I am prepared to have my car tested any where in order to comply with the regulations. I paid around €500 for the car and did not expect to pay around €900 of VRT, especially for a collection car and vintage club registered.

I wish to appeal the V.R.T rate that is being applied to my car and I have no problem bringing my car to an organisation approved by the Revenue Commissioners to have its CO2 emissions tested as per your document ANNEX D, if you could kindly tell me where I can get this done.

Thank you for taking the time to read my letter and I would be very much obliged if you could help me as I am a law abiding citizen that wishes to pay V.R.T on my car but would like to get the correct rating for it.

I reckon you have a point on the OMSP, but appealing the 36% is laughable.....if there were a 50% band it would probably fall into that!

Also formal letter and all that: VRT not V.R.T

locteau

the 36% is only because there is no Co2 emission when they build the car. so they asked for the full price.

The car has been tested before I bought it and the readings are
CO2 % vol 12.33
HC ppm vol 314
O2 %vol 2.00
CO %vol 1.728
COcor %vol 1.84
and then a reading which I cannot decipher of 15.13.

Thanks for the spelling.

Mc-BigE

correct me if im wrong locteau, but you vrt'd the car in April and your appealing it in August? why wait 4 months to appeal. I think there is a set time to appeal VRT (30 days i think)

You make a valid point, but a lot of people are in the same situation as you, only difference is that yours is very close to vintage age.


If you can prove that the OMSP is overpriced then thats you best way of getting some money back, i would suggest that the VRO will just say that "your car is 36% end of story"

if you haven't paid yet, i would suggest, restore your car first, then register it in 2011

locteau

Well I offered to pay when I got the car, but they told me that it is was only needed if the car was on the road. The car was on a trailer for about two month then was "dismental" for repairs, got a second hand engine, new doors lights etc....

then since july I the car is nearly finished, and I call them back, and they asked for a wee bit less than €1000 ? In April they were asking for 4 or €500, but they said it changed since july with CO2.

I always have been in contact with them.

Mc-BigE

locteau wrote: »

Well I offered to pay when I got the car, but they told me that it is was only needed if the car was on the road. The car was on a trailer for about two month then was "dismental" for repairs, got a second hand engine, new doors lights etc....

then since july I the car is nearly finished, and I call them back, and they asked for a wee bit less than €1000 ? In April they were asking for 4 or €500, but they said it changed since july with CO2.

I always have been in contact with them.

im sorry to say this, but id reckon you'd get more for the car now that you've restored it back in the UK, and buy a 1979 (if you can get away with it until 2009) 924


[QUOTE=locteau;Well I offered to pay when I got the car, but they told me that it is was only needed if the car was on the road.[/QUOTE]

you were given wrong information there, they should have told you that the car should be registered within 24 hours of importation, probably did this so that the OMSP would be higher restored, their a cunning lot in the VRO!

The_Conductor

Mc-BigE wrote: »

you were given wrong information there, they should have told you that the car should be registered within 24 hours of importation, probably did this so that the OMSP would be higher restored, their a cunning lot in the VRO!

I doubt they did it delibertly. It was probably a misunderstanding. Obviously it does not need to be taxed unless its on the road- but the VRT is entirely a different matter. Any officer working in the VRO would probably be removed from dealing with the public if they got elemental information such as the above incorrect......

locteau

That's very annoying, because I called them before I went to pick it up and went to their office the next day, when I came back.

Personally I think if it was based on a fair practice which every body is legally entitle this kind of thing would not happen.

I am and was ready to pay the proper amount anytime, even get the car tested as per their "ANNEX D" where ever they want.

So everybody just giving up and says "well just pay the 36%". I think they should reward honest people because it seems to be much easier to.... but I won't give up, I just want a fair practice/price from their Agency.

ninty9er

I reckon you're barking up an upside-down tree trying to avoid 36% as most ORDINARY run of the mill cars made in 1981 would hit more than 225g/km. I'd imagine the 924 would probably be somewhere around 400g/km realistically. If you get it tested you're still going to have to pay 36%.

To be honest you are getting fair practice. They're not trying to shaft you if the car is only being valued @ €2,800. A shell of a 924 would probably make that as a restoration project.

Mc-BigE

locteau wrote: »

I am and was ready to pay the proper amount anytime, even get the car tested as per their "ANNEX D" where ever they want.

whats ANNEX D ?

all i see is this on the revenue website:

"Second-hand Vehicles manufactured prior to 1997.

In certain instances the level of CO2 emissions may not be available for vehicles manufactured prior to 1997. In such instances, if details of the fuel consumption of the vehicle are available - the combined figure derived from an average of urban and extra-urban figures (obtained from any of the Revenue approved sources only), the level of CO2 for the vehicle may be calculated using the formulae below.

It should be noted that all calculations using the formulae below must be carried out by the declarant in advance of the presentation of the vehicle at a Vehicle Registration Office (VRO).

1. Metric Calculations:
1. where fuel consumption is shown as litres per 100km:

CO2 emissions = fuel consumption X 23.20

Example
If the consumption is shown as 5.8 l/100km then 5.8 X 23.20 = CO2 emissions of 134.56 or 135
2. where the fuel consumption is shown as litres per km:

CO2 emissions = fuel consumption X 2320

Example
If the consumption is shown as 0.0058 l/km then 0.058 X 2320 = CO2 emissions of 134.56 or 135
3. where the fuel consumption is shown as kms per litre:

CO2 emissions = 2320/fuel consumption

Example
If the fuel consumption is shown as 17.2 km per litre then 2320 / 17.2 = CO2 emissions of 134.88 or 135
2. Imperial Calculations
1. where the fuel consumption is shown as miles per gallon the figure must first be converted to kms per litre as follows:

mpg/2.82485 = kms per litre

CO2 emissions are then calculated using the formula in 1(c) above.
Example
If the fuel consumption is shown as 48.7 mpg then 48.7/2.82485 = 17.2 km per litre and 2320/17.2 = CO2 emissions of 134.88 or 135

Note: For diesel engines the multiplier changes from 2320 (or 23.20) to 2630 or (26.30) whichever is appropriate."

locteau

That's looks better to me ! I will have a look on teh document if there is a fuel consuption the the VR5.

The "Annexe D" that's what they give me says that if no Co2 the revenue can appoint a centre to test the car or asked the manufacturer (is porsche Dublin would do?) to certify teh Co2 emmission. When I asked where I can go, my understanding was that it new so no there is no centre yet, which I find hard to believe.

The_Conductor

locteau wrote: »

That's looks better to me ! I will have a look on teh document if there is a fuel consuption the the VR5.

The "Annexe D" that's what they give me says that if no Co2 the revenue can appoint a centre to test the car or asked the manufacturer (is porsche Dublin would do?) to certify teh Co2 emmission. When I asked where I can go, my understanding was that it new so no there is no centre yet, which I find hard to believe.

Where is this Annex D that you're talking about?
There won't be any CO2 emissions on a VR5 for a 1981 car.
As per previous comments- if its the 2.5 litre 924- you're probably looking at ~300/350 grm/km (were you using the original engine). With the second hand engine you've put in- god only knows.

locteau

it is a 2L engine same than the audi 100 at the time. The emmission test from the uk before the guy trash it. it is not a turbo etc... just very classic car. No Co2 or details on VR5.

the Co2 I have but it is in % and can't read it.

CO2 % vol 12.33
HC ppm vol 314
O2 %vol 2.00
CO %vol 1.728
COcor %vol 1.84
and then a reading which I cannot decipher of 15.13.

the VRT do not accept it.

mcwhirter

locteau wrote: »

it is a 2L engine same than the audi 100 at the time. The emmission test from the uk before the guy trash it. it is not a turbo etc... just very classic car. No Co2 or details on VR5.

the Co2 I have but it is in % and can't read it.

CO2 % vol 12.33
HC ppm vol 314
O2 %vol 2.00
CO %vol 1.728
COcor %vol 1.84
and then a reading which I cannot decipher of 15.13.

the VRT do not accept it.

If you can get the official mpg figures from porsche or the net for urban, extra urban and combined then you can calculate the c02 from that.

locteau

I imported the car in april on a trailer. I called them and told them and they told me if the car is not on the road drivable they can not estimate the car. So I fixed it up to now and came back to them.

Annex D here :

locteau

Ihave been looking in the wrong place! I was looking at all the paperwork that has come with the car and I never thought to look in the manual. The fuel consumption of the car is given insisde the front page "according to the Passenger Car Fuel Consumption Order 1977 the results recorded in an official fuel eceonomy certificate of the officially approved tests for determining fuel consumption carried out on a car of this model/range are as follows: Automatic
Simulated urban driving 12.8 litres/100km 22.1mpg
Constant Speed Driving 90kph (56mph) 7.4 litres/100km 38.2mpg
Constant Speed Driving 120kph(75mph) 9.2 litres/100km 30.7mpg

so if I calculate that properly using the simulated urban driving figure thats 2320/12.8 which is 181.25 which would place car in Band E 28%.

I went today and they agreed, along with value of the car at 2200 euro, which from the €972 came down to €616.

unkel

Well done! Good luck with your new Porsche project

unkel

The new system has been in operation for two months now. The urgency of this thread as a sticky has gone. Unstickied but left a link to this in the forum charter. I will keep the first post of this thread updated with new links / info should they arise

Thanks to all 115,444 viewers and 1,126 replies (and counting)