New motor tax and VRT regime. Links + calculations

E92

@kbcannon
-BMW have already standardised the pre tax price of their cars. In fact BMW's already cost more before tax in Ireland than they do in VRT free Germany. It's not like BMW are subsidising the cost of their cars for the Irish market because of VRT, unlike other makes who still are.

-BMW Ireland's MD has already promised that the VRT savings will be passed onto the customer. It was mentioned in this thread see post #52(it was also in the Irish Times a few weeks ago that this would be the case, and the MD also said that if prices didn't go down as much as expected, then this would be because the spec levels would have increased)

-The 6 cylinder petrols are in the same VRT band, Manual or Automatic(actually adding an Autobox to the 6 pot diesels will put them in the same VRT bracket as their petrol counterpart)

-And of course this is only for the new cars with the EfficientDynamics, which are now on sale!

If you import an E39 after July, the 6 cylinder petrols are liable for 36% VRT and €2k road tax:eek: IIRC.


EDIT: unkel actually mentioned post#52.

It said the following:

The Irish Times&post #52 wrote:

Michael Nugent, BMW's marketing director says the brand is committed to passing on the savings. "The only reason that prices will not fall by the full amount is if we increase specifications on models at the same time as the price changes, but if that happens on some models it will be completely evident to buyers," he says.

copacetic

E92 wrote: »

I'll do one on Audi this evening(most likely this evening, this is an aspiration, not a promise though!), if not I will do it sometime over the weekend.

Look at previous page copacetic, there is some important info about the 3 series(it's getting a facelift and possibly a new engine too(the twin turbo from the 123d) at the end of the year).

saw your post, would deffo wait for facelift for saloon, but am assuming coupe won't get it as it is newer? or would it get any interior changes?

copacetic

@kbannon, re my post (#52) i've since heard (also on good authority) that increased std spec may bring up prices on bmws slightly. So for instance the base m sport 320d coupe may not come down 10k but may have leather as standard which it should be really anyway. The base price with leather will come down the correct amount though.

unkel

copacetic wrote: »

that increased std spec may bring up prices on bmws

That's likely to happen and it is of course a good thing. Removing leather seats, now a €2,460 option (that most buyers tick), from the list on a BMW 320d and making it standard after 01/01/2008 will only add €2,050 to the retail price

2460 * (1-0.30) / (1-0.16) = 2050

E92

copacetic wrote: »

@kbannon, re my post (#52) i've since heard (also on good authority) that increased std spec may bring up prices on bmws slightly. So for instance the base m sport 320d coupe may not come down 10k but may have leather as standard which it should be really anyway. The base price with leather will come down the correct amount though.

That I would consider to be a very strong possibilty indeed. Most Irish cars are a lower spec than their European and UK counterparts anyway(though BMWs aren't).

As I said, if prices don't go down by as much as expected, then this is because the cars have an increased specification, and I don't see anything wrong with that at all.


As for the 3 series facelift, too early to say what exactly will happen, there may be that twin turbo 2.0 diesel(a strong possibility apparantly), but I think the grille at the front in the saloons will be changed to match the Coupé's(and M3's) and there will a series of other slight styling changes, and a minor facelift of the interior, if past BMW form is anything to go by. It won't be that different at all I'd say.

Dunno about the Coupé, and Cabrio, its only been confirmed for the saloon thus far(and presumably the touring, thats been here since 06).

Ice_Box

Hopefully the faclifted 318d will drop below 120g and into 14% VRT which knock another grand off the price. Its currently 123g.

Also coming in 2008...
Eco Audi A4 at 129g down from 144g
Passat bluemotion 136g down from 156g
Mondeo eco < 140g
Mercedes Benz are going hybrid in 2008 withe the new e class and possible c class in 09.

Its a pity there isnt a lower rate for cars less than 100g per km as a few (non hybrid) are appearing next year from VW and Seat.

E92

Ice_Box wrote: »

Hopefully the facelifted 318d will drop below 120g and into 14% VRT which knock another grand off the price. Its currently 123g.

Maybe they will, originally the 118d with EfficientDynamics did 123 g/km, but because of pressure from BMW UK, BMW managed to reduce it's emissions to under 120 g/km(in the UK there is some sort of tax break or no congestion charge, i can't remember exactly what it is now, but you only get it for cars that are less than 120 g/km CO2, the same goes for the X5, they managed to tweak the diesels in that to under 225 g/km, so as to avoid the £25 congestion charge which it would have attracted, and now here this is relevant, because otherwise the X5 diesels would be in the 36% VRT and 2k tax a year).

E92

copacetic wrote: »

cheers mate, much appreciated. if you are taking requests an audi list to compare to bmw one would be fantastic!

Here it is!

A couple of things stood out for me in this. I was wondering when I did the BMW one how the Government was going to make money on the new VRT scheme because so many BMWs were getting a huge discount, but I got my answer with the Audis today. A 2.0 TDI A6 Avant is in the same VRT category as a 3.0 BMW 530i Touring. The rival 520d is in the 16% VRT category(140 g/km). A 530d will pollute less CO2 than the A6(176 vs 178), so with the BMW you can have a 3.0 straight 6(petrol or diesel by the way) for no more tax than a 2.0 4 cylinder Audi.

The A5 V6 diesels are in the 32% VRT, compared to the 330 and 325d BMWs, which are in 24% and 20% respectively.


The A3 diesels do as well as the 1 series petrols(and diesels). The 'e' versions match equivalent BMWs(in fact the A8 2.8 FSI e is the Greenest luxury car you can buy, petrol or diesel or hybrid, nothing can beat it's CO2), so hopefully Audi will offer more of them in the future(I'm sure now that Audi distribute the cars themselves they will realise that they will have to offer every 'e' variant possible here if they want to compete with BMW for running costs).

The new A4 is a big improvement on CO2 compared to the old one.

I think for the moment BMW won't have too much to worry about anyway(Audis seem to be the next best after BMW for CO2 emissions)!

E92

Not that I've seen any Caddys yet, but for those who are interested...


I've been trying to do them in alphabetical order so far, but I'm going to skip onto the big sellers like Ford and Toyota if you don't mind next.... in fact Toyota is going to be next, since they are the biggest seller, and that by definition means that more people are going to be affected by Toyota than anyone else, but Ford will be after that(and they are the next biggest seller IIRC, but there will be no Focus prices, unless someone can give me the prices of the Mk3 Focus, cause I don't know where to find them).

copacetic

E92 wrote: »

Here it is!

A couple of things stood out for me in this. I was wondering when I did the BMW one how the Government was going to make money on the new VRT scheme because so many BMWs were getting a huge discount, but I got my answer with the Audis today. A 2.0 TDI A6 Avant is in the same VRT category as a 3.0 BMW 530i Touring. The rival 520d is in the 16% VRT category(140 g/km). A 530d will pollute less CO2 than the A6(176 vs 178), so with the BMW you can have a 3.0 straight 6(petrol or diesel by the way) for no more tax than a 2.0 4 cylinder Audi.

The A5 V6 diesels are in the 32% VRT, compared to the 330 and 325d BMWs, which are in 24% and 20% respectively.


The A3 diesels do as well as the 1 series petrols(and diesels). The 'e' versions match equivalent BMWs(in fact the A8 2.8 FSI e is the Greenest luxury car you can buy, petrol or diesel or hybrid, nothing can beat it's CO2), so hopefully Audi will offer more of them in the future(I'm sure now that Audi distribute the cars themselves they will realise that they will have to offer every 'e' variant possible here if they want to compete with BMW for running costs).

The new A4 is a big improvement on CO2 compared to the old one.

I think for the moment BMW won't have too much to worry about anyway(Audis seem to be the next best after BMW for CO2 emissions)!

cheers for that mate, what it says to me is that assuming bmw do as promised and pass on all the savings, audi will have to reduce prices to compete even though vrt may not make it easy for them.

for instance I am a big audi fan and currently have one, I'm looking at changing. Would love an A5 but the 1.8T SE would still be 49,243 with vrt change. It's BMW equivalent the 320i SE will be 43,881. 5k less. That would be a large amount to swallow for pretty similar style and spec cars.

audi will sell feck all of them unless they come close to matching the BMW pricing.

E92

Here is the last one I'm doing tonight, and it's for the biggest seller by a mile in the country.

None other than Toyota.

A diesel Auris,Corolla or Avensis can be had for shag all less than the basic petrol, so I presume Toyota are going to be following BMW's lead with the 3 series and ditch the 1.6 Avensis soon enough.

1.6 Avensis Aura after July, €26,078, 2.0 D-4D Avensis Aura €26,504 or €426 more. Considering that the diesel will cost at least €310 a year to run(290 road tax vs 600 for the 1.6), you're already down to €126 at the very most for the privilege of running a diesel over a year, and that's before you even drive them a mile.

A base diesel Corolla will cost you only €445 more to buy, but when you factor in road tax for a year, you're paying just €165 at the very most extra for the diesel in a year.

A base Auris diesel costs €469 more to buy over the 1.4 after July, and again after 1 years' road tax, the premium goes down to €189.

These are all before the better resale values diesels traditionally enjoy and the superior fuel economy.

I don't think Toyota are going to be bothering importing petrol 1.4 Corollas and 1.6 Avensis' specially for us for a lot longer!

unkel

E92 wrote: »

the A8 2.8 FSI e is the Greenest luxury car you can buy, petrol or diesel or hybrid, nothing can beat it's CO2

Apart from the fact that it's not for sale here is it?

E92

copacetic wrote: »

audi will sell feck all of them unless they come close to matching the BMW pricing.

Which is why it is in BMW's interest to pass on the full VRT savings available!

A sale is a sale is a sale! Under the new VRT scheme, the 4 cylinder 3 series like the 318i and 318d won't cost a whole lot more than the big sellers like the Mondeo, Avensis in a mid spec trim, so if BMW do pass on the savings, they will no doubt be able to sell more of them.

E92

unkel wrote: »

Apart from the fact that it's not for sale here is it?

Not yet. The key word being yet. It's bound to make it's way here in the not too distant future. It's now on sale in the UK actually.

E92

Ice_Box wrote: »

Also coming in 2008...
Eco Audi A4 at 129g down from 144g
Passat bluemotion 136g down from 156g
Mondeo eco < 140g
Mercedes Benz are going hybrid in 2008 withe the new e class and possible c class in 09.

Its a pity there isnt a lower rate for cars less than 100g per km as a few (non hybrid) are appearing next year from VW and Seat.

The new Mk3 Focus will also have VRT busting diesels, all 1.6 TDCi 89 bhp will pollute less than 120 g/km of CO2(119 to be precise), and the ECOnetic version pollutes 115 g/km CO2(and another 20 bhp to boost), so that could mean 14% VRT and €100 road tax if you get a Mark3 Focus TDCi after July!

unkel

E92 wrote: »

It's now on sale in the UK actually.

You are right. It is for sale in the UK atm. A bit pointless though, isn't it? A 6 pot A8/7-series/S-class is even more pathetic than a 1.6l D-segment model from any of those manufacturers imho

E92

Well I actually think it is a good model to add to the range. I know it has the distinction of being one of the slowest luxury cars around, but Merc are soon going to be selling a 2.2 diesel S-class, it may have 204 bhp, but I'm very sceptical that a 4 cylinder diesel is going to be refined enough to haul a car of that size around. You can't defy the laws of physics, there is no escaping the fact that more cylinders=more smoothness i.e. more refinement(not to mention a more cultured sound too).

No other Luxury car offers the CO2 emissions of the 2.8 A8(not even a diesel A8). The only other luxury cars that get €1000 road tax are the LS600h, and the BMW 730d, and they pollute 219 g/km and 210 g/km respectively.

It may give the A8 a bit of a sales boost here. It certainly gives Audi the bragging rights for who makes the cleanest luxury car, doesn't it?

It is a luxury car that is relatively cheap to run, but is neither a diesel or hybrid.

Between them and the EfficientDynamics BMWs, large petrol engines(and petrol engines in general) are far from dead here,you just have to look in the right place to find that will give you diesel like VRT and road tax rates, and similar economy to a diesel too to boot(well at least that's what the manufacturers claim anyway)!

E92

Here are the price lists for Chevrolet, Chrysler, Citroen, Corvette and Daihatsu.

I will get around to doing all of them eventually.

Next up are Dodge, Ford, and then Honda.

A suggestion to the moderators:

When I've them all done, put them in the first post of this sticky. Or create a new sticky with my price lists in them.

It's kind of silly IMO that people have to go and look in different pages, plus I haven't done them in alphabetical order too, so I'm sure it is a bit confusing for people.

The whole reason I'm doing them is so that people can see very clearly what they should be paying next July as opposed to what they actually will pay in July, and see who is ripping off who and who is seizing the opportunity to increase prices in July.

Seth Brundle

For fairness, shouldn't these be sent to the distributors for comment?

Mac 79

unkel wrote: »

Total tax on any car over 1.9l is 73% :eek:

I've added the way VRT and VAT are calculated to the first post in this thread for all to see. Please have a look folks if you don't believe us

where did you get 73%:eek: here's what the total tax added on to the base price realy is,(ie e100+21%[e21]=e121+22.5%[e27]=e148
lessthan 1.4 vat 21% + vrt 22.5% = 48%
1.4 to 1.9 vat 21% + vrt 25% =51%
over 1.9 vat 21% + vrt30% =57%
even at the new highest rate of vrt for a high polluter it adds up to a total of 63%
i'm looking at saving e1,700 next year on a 09 1.9 diesel saet leon + half price road tax:)

E92

Mac 79 wrote: »

where did you get 73%:eek: here's what the total tax added on to the base price realy is,(ie e100+21%[e21]=e121+22.5%[e27]=e148
lessthan 1.4 vat 21% + vrt 22.5% = 48%
1.4 to 1.9 vat 21% + vrt 25% =51%
over 1.9 vat 21% + vrt30% =57%
even at the new highest rate of vrt for a high polluter it adds up to a total of 63%
i'm looking at saving e1,700 next year on a 09 1.9 diesel saet leon + half price road tax:)

It's not unkel's fault you're calculating VRT wrongly:D!

Look at some of the other posts in this sticky,actually look at the previous page, and you will see how to do it properly!(which will explain the 73% figure)

JHMEG

E92 would you put all these into the one multipage xls, ie like the original SIMI price list was.. it'd make it an invaluable reference work!

E92

JHMEG wrote: »

E92 would you put all these into the one multipage xls, ie like the original SIMI price list was.. it'd make it an invaluable reference work!

I would if I knew how to, plus you can only upload 5 at a time, and I'm uploading them as I work through them.

Hence my suggestion to the moderators above;)!

I have one copy where they will all be at the end, so I will upload that when I've everything done, which is one xls file with them all in it.

unkel

JHMEG wrote: »

E92 would you put all these into the one multipage xls, ie like the original SIMI price list was.. it'd make it an invaluable reference work!

Good suggestion

E92 wrote: »

When I've them all done, put them in the first post of this sticky

If you combine them into one spreadsheet, I'll stick it right into the first post of this sticky! Good work, E92

May I suggest a few things? Firstly, I would prefer to have the data in flat format, so not in multiple files, not even in multiple worksheets. Just in a flat form with the following columns:

Make
Model (exact model)
Engine CC
CO2 g/km
Old VRT%
New VRT %
Price now
Price from 1/7/08 - calculated
Increase/(Decrease)
Percentage change

Secondly, it looks like you are putting in the VRT percentages manually. The new VRT percentages are based on the column with the CO2 figures and the old VRT percentages are based on the engine capacity. You can automate these by using a VLOOKUP function or an IF statement in Excel

Mac 79

my bad must be going blind:cool: from just looking through all 9 pages and to top it all off my calculator is lying to me and saying don't get simi to do my vrt

unkel

Mac 79 wrote: »

my calculator is lying to me

LOL

copacetic

kbannon wrote: »

For fairness, shouldn't these be sent to the distributors for comment?

comment on what? it's sums. the only comment they can make is whether they are planning to shaft people or not.

what_car

E92 wrote: »

Last ones for sometime(won't be able to do them for another while I don't think).

Ford seems to be similar enough to Toyota.

Honda Civic is an excellent performer it must be said... they(non Hybrid ones) give you BMW EfficientDymanics style low emissions, as long as you stick with the hatchback and avoid the Type-R.

And the Focus prices are for the Mk2 Focus, a Mk3 is on the way very shortly(I don't have the prices for the Mk3 Focus), and as it is almost mechanically identical to the Mk2, so the prices should be viewed as a good guess for July(excluding the 1.6 TDCi 90 PS whose emissions are going down to 119 g/km for the Mk3 and hence 14% VRT).

cool nice spreadsheets just noticed one mistake, the accord type s auto is 200g co2 (checked my registration sheet) and not 189

Esel

E92, fantastic work on the spreadsheets.

More work I know, but if you could also include the annual road tax it would be very revealing.

On VRT and how it is calculated, I have only recently realised (thanks to this thread) that it is *not* based on the base price plus VAT, but is rather a 'reverse' tax which is calculated *backwards* on the Open Market Selling Price (OMSP). Apparently the OMSP is set by the manufacturer/importer in the case of a new vehicle?

VRT is therefore very misleading!

Take a car costing say €20,000 base price. Add VAT at 21%. Cost now is €24,200. Say the car has a VRT rate of 30%. You would expect the final price to be €31,460. You accept that you are being charged VRT on top of VAT, which might seem to be a rip-off in itself. But you are wrong!

The VRT is not based on the base price + VRT, it is based on the aforesaid OMSP, which to all extents and purposes is a figure which is 'forward calculated' to include the VRT.

Hard to understand, I know. What it means is that if you want to calculate the VRT element of this car's price, it is 30% of the OMSP, *not* 30% of the VAT-inclusive base price.

VRT is the only tax I have heard of which operates in this manner.

So the car you think should cost €31,460 could end up costing a far bit more. I'm sure it is possible to calculate what the real percentage cost of VRT is, but one thing is sure - it is not what you are being led to believe!

Ah well, at least the current (or past) Taoiseach does not have to worry about it - he has a (top of the range) car and driver for life, paid for by the State. Having (or having had) a valid driving licence is a different kettle of fish entirely.

port

Thanks E92,great work.Please post spread sheet for BMW.