The murder of Thomas Ashe in 1917

fits

randylonghorn wrote: »

... and to my grandmother! :eek:

Actually maybe it was my grandmother too! I sense a historical family conversation coming up as the people that can enlighten me on this subject arent getting any younger.

Really? I knew Collins and Harry Boland didn't seem to be able to make up their mind which of Kitty and Helen they both wanted, until Helen settled it for them by marrying someone else. Didn't know Tomás was tied up in any of that?

Now I cant find where I read that. Theres a wee book at home that maybe mentions it.

ejmaztec

donaghs wrote: »

McArmalite, you certainly are determined to fight your corner.;) I've read books on the period that cover Thomas Ashe and the events of his life. Never heard the Casement connection before though.

Korea is interesting though. I'm a bit hazy on the British imperialist war there (unless it refers to a minor role alongside the Americans in their war). Thankfully the North Koreans managed to escape the British clutches and were able to create the Workers Paradise which is a shining example to the rest of the world.;)

It's a well known fact, by at least one person, that the Korean War was started by MI6. They knew that lots of Irish people were in the US army and wanted to get rid of as many as they could. They lured the US into the war, along with 20 odd other members of the UN and put their cunning plan into action. After painting their faces yellow, and putting on funny hats, they targeted the GIs who had shamrocks painted on their helmets. Damn sneaky, those Brits! This is a true account of what happened.

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Yeah, but you have to admit that the way the British went and threw out Argentina after they invaded their territory was disgusting
I hear there's a guy in Portlaoise that is demanding two call girls, 8 cans of Guinnes and a 42" plasma tv, if he doesn't get them he is going on Hunger strike. Better give in to him eh:rolleyes:

ejmaztec wrote: »

It's a well known fact, by at least one person, that the Korean War was started by MI6. They knew that lots of Irish people were in the US army and wanted to get rid of as many as they could. They lured the US into the war, along with 20 odd other members of the UN and put their cunning plan into action. After painting their faces yellow, and putting on funny hats, they targeted the GIs who had shamrocks painted on their helmets. Damn sneaky, those Brits! This is a true account of what happened.

Your sooooo witty and funny lads, everyone must be in stitches reading your hilarious comments......ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Anyway, enough about the Korean War, it's got nothing to do with the subject of the posting. If any of you want to start a thread on the Korean War, fine by me. But don't expect me to swallow any rubbish about britain's invovlement been due to it's role as an honest and sincere International Policeman bring peace and justice thru it's " wars for peace " to places thousands of miles from it etc, etc.

DublinDes

randylonghorn wrote: »

... and to my grandmother! :eek:

O_o

The "Black Diaries" were used unscrupulously to discredit Casement, and to nip in the bud any public and international pressure for a stay of execution (Casement, a former officer of the British consular service, was quite well known and respected internationally as a result of his work in the Congo and in Peru, where he had written about and highlighted the horrendous ill-treatment of rubber plantation workers). The diaries were then held in such secrecy by the British Government as to bolster suspicions that the diaries themselves were forgeries, and the whole thing was a propaganda campaign ... Yeats and others argued this very strongly, as I recall.

The fact that supposed copies of the diaries had been circulated at the time under the direction of the British DNI, Reginald Hall, who had a reputation for dirty tricks and was strongly suspected of using forged documents in other cases, added fuel to the fire.

A less convincing argument often made was that a "good nationalist" like Casement could not have been gay! :rolleyes:

However, while there is no doubt that the spin-doctors of the time "made gay while the sun shone" (as I have heard one historian describe it) there seems to be a fairly general acceptance at this stage that Casement was gay, and the weight of scholarly opinion seems to lean towards accepting the so-called "Black Diaries" as genuine ... or at least basically genuine with perhaps the odd interpolation to add further "evidence" of Casement's sexual proclivities.

The case is by no means fully proven, however, and questions have been raised about the methodologies employed by the last major study by Audrey Giles. Unless future forensic technology provides us with additional evidence, there is a strong possibility that the case will never be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt for either side.

There is no doubt whatsoever, however, that the spin-doctors of the time (a time when it was both illegal and, at least publicly, completely morally reprehensible to be homosexual) used the diaries, whether genuine or not, to fuel an unscrupulous propaganda campaign against Casement based on a side of his life which had nothing whatsoever to do with the charges on which he had been convicted. This campaign successfully undermined strong public and in particular international support and sympathy for Casement, based in no small part on his previous humanitarian record, and cleared the way for his execution.

It is probably worth noting that rumours of someone's homosexuality (or indeed other sexual wrongdoing) were more commonly bandied about as political ammunition at the time than one might suppose ... the tabloids might be a relatively new phenomenon, the sleazy rumours that they revel in are a more abiding pattern. AFAIR, rumours were circulated at one stage that Michael Collins was gay ... a rumour that is supposed to have greatly amused his brother when it was later mentioned to him. Later, so many rumours circulated about his supposed affairs with women that he could easily be characterised as the one-night-stand king of Ireland ... even by to-day's standards! While there is no great reason to believe that Collins died a good wholesome Irish Catholic boy, as some of his hagiographers tried to portray him in their turn, there isn't much evidence either to support the theory of Collins as serial philanderer. Never heard anything about that either ... not saying it couldn't be true, but probably far more likely more of the rumour mill ...

Really? I knew Collins and Harry Boland didn't seem to be able to make up their mind which of Kitty and Helen they both wanted, until Helen settled it for them by marrying someone else. Didn't know Tomás was tied up in any of that?

" There is no doubt whatsoever, however, that the spin-doctors of the time (a time when it was both illegal and, at least publicly, completely morally reprehensible to be homosexual) used the diaries, ".

It's STILL morally reprehensible to be homosexual as far as I'm concerned. :mad: I know the usual do gooders etc will come on denouncing me a as a backward Nazi etc, insecure of my own sexuality. though I think the brits were just out to blacked Casement's name.

SpitfireIV

DublinDes wrote: »

I know the usual do gooders etc will come on denouncing me a as a backward Nazi etc

You'd like that, wouldnt you*


* don't feed

Fratton Fred

DublinDes wrote: »

" There is no doubt whatsoever, however, that the spin-doctors of the time (a time when it was both illegal and, at least publicly, completely morally reprehensible to be homosexual) used the diaries, ".

It's STILL morally reprehensible to be homosexual as far as I'm concerned. :mad: I know the usual do gooders etc will come on denouncing me a as a backward Nazi etc, insecure of my own sexuality. though I think the brits were just out to blacked Casement's name.

shame, you've just missed the annual awards, That would have won you second prize in the "Shooting yourself in the foot with an Armalite" category

after the "No foreign sports in Croke Park" hero.......actually, where were you that day??:p

DublinDes

Fratton Fred wrote: »

shame, you've just missed the annual awards, That would have won you second prize in the "Shooting yourself in the foot with an Armalite" category

after the "No foreign sports in Croke Park" hero.......actually, where were you that day??:p

Don't know what your on about buddy "Shooting yourself in the foot with an Armalite"....."No foreign sports in Croke Park" hero....

The thing is - do you ? ? ?

CroppyBoy1798, I know whose upset because he couldn't be the fairy on the top of the Xmas tree in Carlow :D:D

McArmalite

Enjoying your little pleasantries lads, but completely off topic. Can we get back on topic ?

DublinDes

McArmalite wrote: »

Enjoying your little pleasantries lads, but completely off topic. Can we get back on topic ?

You like your own little pleasentries McArm , yourself and Fred Fratton are always bitching.

luckat

I'm amused by how emotional people get about history.

Ashe was a massive big man, and word on the streets (leaking out from the jails) at the time was that the prison warders particularly targeted him, and that the food going into his lungs was not accidental. I heard that it happened three times.

Bit of background: Gregory Peck was a (first?) cousin of Ashe, and Ashe was a brilliant traditional musician, a beautiful piper.

fits

Ashe used to climb to the top of a hill in Kinard and serenade the locality with his uileann pipes.

I hope he was a good piper!

McArmalite

luckat wrote: »

I'm amused by how emotional people get about history.

Ashe was a massive big man, and word on the streets (leaking out from the jails) at the time was that the prison warders particularly targeted him, and that the food going into his lungs was not accidental. I heard that it happened three times.

Bit of background: Gregory Peck was a (first?) cousin of Ashe, and Ashe was a brilliant traditional musician, a beautiful piper.

"Gregory Peck was a (first?) cousin of Ashe " - Very interesting. I knew he had relations in Ireland and visited them several times. Appearently in private life he was a civil, decent sort of fella. He was also a handy ametuer boxer in his youth I believe. His most memberable film for me is The Scarlet and the Black based on the true story of Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty who despite official Vatican neutrality and significant risk to his personal safety, he organized a network to save Jewish refugees and Allied POWs from the Nazis. Very good film.

fits

They werent first cousins, but I *think* their parents were.

luckat

Here's a page with a mention of the relationship:

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/show_narrative_page.do?page_id=3785

and a subpage showing him with the other Ashes:

http://www.askaboutireland.ie/show_narrative_page.do?page_id=3866

and a postcard of Thomas Ashe in national dress:

http://www.islandireland.com/Pages/history/archives/postcards/easter6.html

kreuzberger

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Thomas Ashe was an interesting, and important figure in Irelands fight for freedom. He achieved great successes in the battle of Ashbourne, until forced to surrender by Pearse.

.

The Provisional governemnt , not just Pearse , ordered all forces to surrender after the failure of the uprising . Had there been the remotest chance of hope no such order would have been given . Dublin was being levelled with artillery regardless of civilian casualties and very very few Irishmen had turned out . Many turned out to shoot at the rebels and jeer them upon capture , such is the mentality of our people after centuries of colonialism. To expect a single unit to carry on regardless in those circumstances would have been very wrong regardless of its initial success . Within a few days that intial success would have turned into wholesale disaster . The point had been made though and there was little point carrying on just for the sake of killing a few more brits . It made much more sense militarily for ashes forces to withdraw from the field and return in more favourable circumstances .

The episode illustrated though had it not been for MacNeills deliberate sabotage of the enterprise though British rule in Ireland would have been in serious trouble . The limited uprisings in Galway and Wexford caused them seriousproblems as well as the events in ashbourne and Dublin . Had they managed to hold out for just a few months a german landing was a definite possibility . Ireland would then have been run according to the will of the Irish and not threats by Britain .

foxshooter243

ejmaztec wrote: »

It's a well known fact, by at least one person, that the Korean War was started by MI6. They knew that lots of Irish people were in the US army and wanted to get rid of as many as they could. They lured the US into the war, along with 20 odd other members of the UN and put their cunning plan into action. After painting their faces yellow, and putting on funny hats, they targeted the GIs who had shamrocks painted on their helmets. Damn sneaky, those Brits! This is a true account of what happened.

i find your comment so stupid and sad.......

ejmaztec

foxshooter243 wrote: »

i find your comment so stupid and sad.......

The truth hurts, doesn't it?:D

Riddle101

It's sad how the good always seem to die so early Wolfe Tone,Thomas Ashe, Micheal Collins etc. it's also funny how both Ashe and Collins had achieved what they wanted before their deaths as well. For Ashe he gave way for the Flying Colums and the Guerrilla Warfare we would use during the War for Independence, and for Collins he helped Ireland achieve what it had been denied for so long, even if it can be considered semi independence it was the best thing we got for 300 years. It's fair to say they died a Hero's Death

SpitfireIV

Riddle101 wrote:

It's fair to say they died a Hero's Death

Wolfetone making a botched job of suicide and dying a slow death, Ashe dying from force feeding and Collins trying to play the hero on a roadside in Cork, I wouldnt quite count those as 'Hero's' deaths, but then again, I suppose the great ones always go out with some sort of controversy. But yes, the good die young, but only those who died young pass into legend and we are left with the never answered question 'what if?'

Riddle101

CroppyBoy1798 wrote: »

Wolfetone making a botched job of suicide and dying a slow death, Ashe dying from force feeding and Collins trying to play the hero on a roadside in Cork, I wouldnt quite count those as 'Hero's' deaths, but then again, I suppose the great ones always go out with some sort of controversy. But yes, the good die young, but only those who died young pass into legend and we are left with the never answered question 'what if?'

Well actually when i said a hero's death i meant they died achieving what they fought for and gave way for Ireland to gain it's Independence. Wolfe Tone of course can be excluded but Collins and Ashe had done their lifes goal and as soon as they had done that they died a death of a hero because it earned them a legacy that will be untarnished. I've never seen or read a bad thing about Collins or Ashe and that is why i think they are great. We never will see them doing a wrong and that is how a true hero should be

kreuzberger

Riddle101 wrote: »

Well actually when i said a hero's death i meant they died achieving what they fought for and gave way for Ireland to gain it's Independence. Wolfe Tone of course can be excluded but Collins and Ashe had done their lifes goal and as soon as they had done that they died a death of a hero because it earned them a legacy that will be untarnished. I've never seen or read a bad thing about Collins or Ashe and that is why i think they are great. We never will see them doing a wrong and that is how a true hero should be

are you saying michael collins died acheiving his lifes goal of forcing an oath to the crown of england on Irish tds , shelling the crap out of Dublin on the orders of winston churchill with British supplied artillery , interning thousands of his fellow irish men and executing them by the score while the bishops egged it on , splitting the country in 2 and creating a protstant parliament for a protstant people in the north along with b specials and all the rest .

do you remember who actually shot the sonofabitch ?

Riddle101

kreuzberger wrote: »

are you saying michael collins died acheiving his lifes goal of forcing an oath to the crown of england on Irish tds , shelling the crap out of Dublin on the orders of winston churchill with British supplied artillery , interning thousands of his fellow irish men and executing them by the score while the bishops egged it on , splitting the country in 2 and creating a protstant parliament for a protstant people in the north along with b specials and all the rest .

do you remember who actually shot the sonofabitch ?

No i'm saying Collins died opening the door that allowed Ireland to gain it's independence. No other politician has managed what Collins did. Up until then Home Rule was closer to an independence that Ireland could achieve, but it still limitied us, but Collins actually got further and managed to get us full on Independece, yes technically we we're still in the Empire and the King of England was head of state but other then that we had our independece but it wans't until De Valera so called dismantling of the treay that Rep Ireland was officially an independant state.

As for the rest of your post well i'll respond to each individually
(1)Forcing an oath? the treaty was the best deal Collins could get(Too bad De Valera wasn't at the treaty maybe if he was so apposed he'd have went himself) Collins saw it, Griffith saw it and a large majority of Irish people saw it, by refusing to make the oath Ireland and England could have easily went back to fighting and our links would have been severed. As for Winston Churchill ordering Collins to bomb Dublin, well as said before Churchill could have gone much further and just plain out bombed Ireland himself

(2)Collin's split the country? now that's a first. I was under the impression it was the ignorant Hardline Republicans who split the country

(3)As for shotting him, well there are a lot of theories as to who shot him, some say anti treaty respublicans, othger say the Brits, and some say some angry Unionist but i'll go with the first choice which is to say the anti treaty side. But hey it was a civil war, many great historic figures died in that war, it was just unfortunate that Collins was one of them

SpitfireIV

kreuzberger wrote: »

are you saying michael collins died acheiving his lifes goal of forcing an oath to the crown of england on Irish tds , shelling the crap out of Dublin on the orders of winston churchill with British supplied artillery , interning thousands of his fellow irish men and executing them by the score while the bishops egged it on , splitting the country in 2 and creating a protstant parliament for a protstant people in the north along with b specials and all the rest .

I never fail to find it amusing how people always come up with the phrases 'Collins split the country', 'started the civil war' etc etc.

Remind me again how many delegated on the Irish side participated in the treaty talks? As far as I remember it wasnt just Collins that travelled to the UK, Collins didnt head the negotiation team, that job was held by Griffith, no? Yet Collins is singled out as being the 'evil' one? If Griffith had of lived would he have got the same bad press as Collins?

Crumble Froo

not to mention the dáil took it to a vote. if the ones who had democratically lost had accepted that vote, there would have been a much better chance of avoiding the civil war. personally, i point my finger at dev largely on this one. he was the best chance we had at negotiating something, he refused to accept the treaty even after the dáil did (by a slim chance, admittedly, but that's neither here nor there), and then to turn around when he realised his side wasnt going to win and say ah well sure we might as well say the oath, but just not mean it... :rolleyes:

kreuzberger

Riddle101 wrote: »

No i'm saying Collins died opening the door that allowed Ireland to gain it's independence. No other politician has managed what Collins did. Up until then Home Rule was closer to an independence that Ireland could achieve, but it still limitied us, but Collins actually got further and managed to get us full on Independece

no he didnt ?

, yes technically we we're still in the Empire and the King of England was head of state

technically and actually , with thousands of British troops still stationed in the country . and theyre still here .

but other then that we had our independece

erm...no we didnt

but it wans't until De Valera so called dismantling of the treay that Rep Ireland was officially an independant state.

no that happened in 1948 with fine gael and their co alition with sean macbride . And still thousands of troops remained in our country

As for the rest of your post well i'll respond to each individually

(1)Forcing an oath? the treaty was the best deal Collins could get(Too bad De Valera wasn't at the treaty maybe if he was so apposed he'd have went himself)

on what do you base this on , saying you werent actually there ? A man who was there , Protestant academic and republican Robert Barton made clear in his report that under pressure from Collins and Griffith the Irish side had basically fluffed it from the outset , allowing themselves to enter into negotiations accepting they were not representatives of a sovereign governemnt . From that point on the independence of the Irish people had been conceded before the negotiations had even begun . The outcome was predetermined simply upon entry due to collins stupidity and eagerness to earn himself a place in history by immediately agreeing to British preconditions right from the outset . The cause was lost before it had begun .
Incidentally despite being a treaty signatory , Collins people very deliberately took this this academic from his prison cell and executed him afterwards in order to shut him up .

Collins saw it, Griffith saw it and a large majority of Irish people saw it

,

thats interesting saying that the terms of the treaty werent even made available to the public untill the morning of the vote

by refusing to make the oath Ireland and England could have easily went back to fighting and our links would have been severed.

links with what ? are you actually claiming that in order to avoid going back to conflict a bloody civil war was necessary ?

As for Winston Churchill ordering Collins to bomb Dublin, well as said before Churchill could have gone much further and just plain out bombed Ireland himself

really ? why didnt he ? surely the possibility of dublin being shelled was better than the actuality of it . Are you saying in order to prevent dublin being shelled michael collis shelled dublin ?

(2)Collin's split the country? now that's a first. I was under the impression it was the ignorant Hardline Republicans who split the country

i was under the impression Britian did , with Michael collins able assistance

(3)As for shotting him, well there are a lot of theories as to who shot him, some say anti treaty respublicans, othger say the Brits, and some say some angry Unionist but i'll go with the first choice which is to say the anti treaty side. But hey it was a civil war, many great historic figures died in that war, it was just unfortunate that Collins was one of them

why ?

kreuzberger

Crumble Froo wrote: »

not to mention the dáil took it to a vote. if the ones who had democratically lost had accepted that vote, there would have been a much better chance of avoiding the civil war. personally, i point my finger at dev largely on this one. he was the best chance we had at negotiating something, he refused to accept the treaty even after the dáil did (by a slim chance, admittedly, but that's neither here nor there), and then to turn around when he realised his side wasnt going to win and say ah well sure we might as well say the oath, but just not mean it... :rolleyes:

there should have been no vote or debate permitted in the first place .

kreuzberger

by refusing to make the oath Ireland and England could have easily went back to fighting and our links would have been severed

hold on a minute . are you actually claiming the oath was necessary to avoid Ireland and Britian severing their links ???:eek:
erm..you do know what the whole war was about in the first place ???

randylonghorn

How did a thread about Tomás' death turn into the same tired old pro & anti Treaty argument?

kreuzberger

randylonghorn wrote: »

How did a thread about Tomás' death turn into the same tired old pro & anti Treaty argument?

Riddle 101 posted this

It's sad how the good always seem to die so early Wolfe Tone,Thomas Ashe, Micheal Collins etc. it's also funny how both Ashe and Collins had achieved what they wanted before their deaths as well. For Ashe he gave way for the Flying Colums and the Guerrilla Warfare we would use during the War for Independence, and for Collins he helped Ireland achieve what it had been denied for so long, even if it can be considered semi independence it was the best thing we got for 300 years. It's fair to say they died a Hero's Death

randylonghorn

Thank you. However, the question was rhetorical ...