Bertie pulls in his belt

mike65

So then its just been announced the pay hikes have been deferred for 12 months.

Mike.

sovtek

How gracious. Not one bit cynical.

Sand

Deferred? If they had any decency theyd simply cancel them. Theyre apparently our political leadership, so they need to act like it. If theres cost cuttings and a need for fiscal responsibility then they should be the first to sacrifice pay rises.

As it is its just a petty ploy to try and fool the unions for the next round of negotiations. Apparently even FF grasped it would be shameful [more likely not politically expedient] for them to be telling the unions to take pay cuts whilst they were wringing every penny they could out of the budget for their pay packets.

guinnessdrinker

Will the payrise be back paid?

Colonel Sanders

not gonna be back dated according to six one. Mary Hanafin was asked about the cumulative pat rises ministers etc had recieved over the last 10 years and answered vaguely not really addressing the subject every time she was asked (and she was asked quite a few times)

hognef

The politicians of another European country, Norway (same population as Ireland), have recently had their salaries reviewed as well (by an independent body). Not everybody were too happy with the 'massive' 6% pay hike. The new salaries are as follows:

Members of the parliament: NOK 654,000 (EUR 82,000)
Members of the government: NOK 969,000 (EUR 121,000
Prime minister: NOK 1,191,000 (EUR 149,000)

Now, even if they don't accept their new pay rise, Ireland's JUNIOR MINISTERS already earn as much as Norway's PRIME MINISTER.

This despite the following:
* Norway is one of the wealthiest countries in the world (per head of pop), and could easily afford to pay their politicians 10 times as much as Bertie. (BTW: Ireland isn't really a wealthy country, as long as most of our wealth is the very houses we live in)
* Salaries in Norway are among the top few in the world.
* Norway is one of the most expensive countries in the world.
* Finally, Norwegian politicians actually seem to do a good job, as Norway have an almost non-existent unemployment rate, health care is available to everybody (no need for private health insurance), unemployment benefits and pensions are MUCH MUCH higher than in Ireland, maternity/PATERNITY leave is 10 months on full salary, there's no lack of schools, education (university included) is free, traffic deaths are less than half of the rate in Ireland, public transport works well, there's virtually no drink driving, ministers don't waste an average industrial salary on a flight to Slovenia on board a private jet etc, etc.

So, in conclusion: We are fools to allow the current politicians to keep doing what they're doing (which isn't much, really). But it'd be even worse to think that deferring their pay rises is a good thing. In fact, cancelling the pay rises altogether still wouldn't be a good thing. What's needed is a significant reduction in wages. In return we might get politicians who aren't in it for the money, but instead because they believe they can actually make a difference.

bonkey

hognef wrote: »

In return we might get politicians who aren't in it for the money, but instead because they believe they can actually make a difference.

More likely, you'd get politicians who were even better at making up the difference via brown-envelopism and so forth.

jmayo

hognef wrote: »

The politicians of another European country, Norway (same population as Ireland), have recently had their salaries reviewed as well (by an independent body). Not everybody were too happy with the 'massive' 6% pay hike. The new salaries are as follows:

Members of the parliament: NOK 654,000 (EUR 82,000)
Members of the government: NOK 969,000 (EUR 121,000
Prime minister: NOK 1,191,000 (EUR 149,000)

Now, even if they don't accept their new pay rise, Ireland's JUNIOR MINISTERS already earn as much as Norway's PRIME MINISTER.

This despite the following:
* Norway is one of the wealthiest countries in the world (per head of pop), and could easily afford to pay their politicians 10 times as much as Bertie. (BTW: Ireland isn't really a wealthy country, as long as most of our wealth is the very houses we live in)
* Salaries in Norway are among the top few in the world.
* Norway is one of the most expensive countries in the world.
* Finally, Norwegian politicians actually seem to do a good job, as Norway have an almost non-existent unemployment rate, health care is available to everybody (no need for private health insurance), unemployment benefits and pensions are MUCH MUCH higher than in Ireland, maternity/PATERNITY leave is 10 months on full salary, there's no lack of schools, education (university included) is free, traffic deaths are less than half of the rate in Ireland, public transport works well, there's virtually no drink driving, ministers don't waste an average industrial salary on a flight to Slovenia on board a private jet etc, etc.

So, in conclusion: We are fools to allow the current politicians to keep doing what they're doing (which isn't much, really). But it'd be even worse to think that deferring their pay rises is a good thing. In fact, cancelling the pay rises altogether still wouldn't be a good thing. What's needed is a significant reduction in wages. In return we might get politicians who aren't in it for the money, but instead because they believe they can actually make a difference.

Taxes are very high but at least they seem to know what to do with the money.
Also their smart governments have been ferreting away their oil money for a rainy day.

Akrasia

bonkey wrote: »

More likely, you'd get politicians who were even better at making up the difference via brown-envelopism and so forth.

I don't know about that.

If you're of the attitude that you should be paid equal to the most successful CEOs or else you'll leave and get a job in the private sector (Which according to FF spin, all politicians think this way as it was the only single justification they could give for the pay increases) then you're more likely to accept illicit 'bonuses' and 'corporate hospitality' because you'll rationalise that you somehow deserve all the fine things in life.

For those to whom sufficient is not enough, nothing will ever satisfy them

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

biko

Sand wrote: »

Deferred? If they had any decency theyd simply cancel them.

They are just waiting for everything to cool down. Next year it might not be news at all.

hognef

jmayo wrote: »

Taxes are very high but at least they seem to know what to do with the money.

As you may have understood from my message, I'm Norwegian myself, and used to pay Norwegian taxes until I moved to Ireland last year. And, yes, taxes in Norway are higher, but not by as much as you may think. In any case, the difference is more than made up for by the social welfare benefits such as unemployment benefit, sick leave, leave due to kids' sickness, disability benefits, old age pensions and so on (no need to repeat myself, really).

jmayo wrote: »

Also their smart governments have been ferreting away their oil money for a rainy day.

While the Irish government has put aside absolutely nothing despite the massive growth of the 'Celtic Tiger'...

Colonel Sanders

Brian Cowen was very vocal at the weekend on this matter, basically saying that it was independantly assessed. Does this mean we can look forward to reductions in the monster pay cheques ESB workers recieve seeing as an independant study showed this semi state was massively over paid?

The_Minister

hognef wrote: »

While the Irish government has put aside absolutely nothing despite the massive growth of the 'Celtic Tiger'...

Aside from 1% of GDP into a long-term pensions fund each year.....:rolleyes:

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

brianthebard

bonkey wrote: »

More likely, you'd get politicians who were even better at making up the difference via brown-envelopism and so forth.

Make up what difference? This has been suggested as a valid reason to give them the money more than once now. Its like saying that we should give the dole to everyone who's working anyways so they won't be tempted to try and dupe the state. Politicans are already very very very well compensated for what they do, and are not obligated to give up any other income they may have, as pointed out in another thread. Many of them are already earning a decent enough wage, otherwise they wouldn't be able to afford to run for parliament in the first place. This idea that politicans shouldn't be in it for the money, but that giving them huge sums of cash will deter them from being in it for the money is so farcial it makes me want to vomit into my own scorn.

kaiser sauze

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

not gonna be back dated according to six one. Mary Hanafin was asked about the cumulative pat rises ministers etc had recieved over the last 10 years and answered vaguely not really addressing the subject every time she was asked (and she was asked quite a few times)

Mary Hanafin never answers anything.

I cannot stand listening to her. She just gets into a long-winded sermon, skirting around the issue, that puts you to sleep and she speaks far too quickly, too.

(In other words, what you said!)

dRNk SAnTA

This isn't pulling in his belt! They'll still be getting their pay rise, they're just going to give it 12 months and hope it doesn't make the news next year. Its purely to avoid the bad press. As usual in Ireland, its just cynical politics. :mad:

jmayo

hognef wrote: »

As you may have understood from my message, I'm Norwegian myself, and used to pay Norwegian taxes until I moved to Ireland last year. And, yes, taxes in Norway are higher, but not by as much as you may think. In any case, the difference is more than made up for by the social welfare benefits such as unemployment benefit, sick leave, leave due to kids' sickness, disability benefits, old age pensions and so on (no need to repeat myself, really).

While the Irish government has put aside absolutely nothing despite the massive growth of the 'Celtic Tiger'...

Have to say Norwegian scenery is magnificent but it does make the roads a problem and driving difficult.
Sorry off topic here but did you ever spend time in Styrn or do you know if there is a speed camera in the undersea tunnel out of Stavanger heading north?

Yep we did have a government sponsored savings scheme called the SSIAs.
It was a 5 year saving scheme where for every 4 euros you saved the government would give you 1 euro at the end of the 5 years.
The neat trick was the scheme reached maturity just beofre the last election.
So really it was a re-election sweetner of sorts.

Apart from that the government just wasted a lot of the huge tax returns of the last 10 odd years.
We had overspend on infrastrucure projects like the Luas, the M50, the new motorway aretieries throughout Ireland, the electronic voting system, the Garda IT infrastructure, the health service human resources system (PPARS), etc, etc.
Also the public sector was allowed grow hugely and massive pay hikes were given to the public sector workers with no return in productivity.

BTW the "cetic tiger" died back in 2001 when our IT/telecomms boom ended.
Since then jobs have been lost both in indigenous and multinational companies.
It was replaced by the "celtic housing bubble" which allowed developers, estate agents, auctioneers, lawyers (some lawyers got richer than others), builders, land owners and the odd politican or two to get mega rich while the poor first time buyer signed up to a lifetime of debt.
We should also thank the German and possibly even the Norwegian savers for the availability of cheap credit.

Liam Byrne

While it's great to hear that our taxes won't be abused to give the useless politicians even more money (and before someone queries that description, just have a look at their inaction on numerous issues, not to mention the issues that they've screwed up by their actions), it's ridiculous.

Brian Dobson tried to get a straight answer from Hairy Mannequin last night, and it would have been laughable if it weren't for the fact that this person is part of the "running" of this country.....he said that there has been a 145% increase since 1990, while she continuously avoided that and claimed that there was a 5% increase each year to meet inflation (inflation caused by whom, I wonder ?).

I'm working for myself, and I haven't even been able to meet inflation in my own wages, while Bertie & Co wanted to give themselves a pay rise worth more than my wages...

Deferring it just isn't good enough.....mind you, considering that most of them should have been sacked years ago and enough people decided to vote them in again, I supposed we get what we (or rather, what some of the population) deserve......

hognef

jmayo wrote: »

Have to say Norwegian scenery is magnificent but it does make the roads a problem and driving difficult.

Indeed, and while I would want more to be done, they still manage to come up with decent solutions. There are probably more motorways and definitely less traffic in Norway than in Ireland, even if the scenery makes it difficult and a lot more expensive to build. Drilling a tunnel before you can lay out a stretch of road is not cheap!

jmayo wrote: »

Sorry off topic here but did you ever spend time in Styrn or do you know if there is a speed camera in the undersea tunnel out of Stavanger heading north?

I have spent some time in Stryn, however, that's a long time ago now. I don't really know if there's a camera in that tunnel, but I wouldn't be very surprised if there is. They tend to put up cameras in the longer tunnels. Have you been there?

jmayo wrote: »

Yep we did have a government sponsored savings scheme called the SSIAs.
It was a 5 year saving scheme where for every 4 euros you saved the government would give you 1 euro at the end of the 5 years.
The neat trick was the scheme reached maturity just beofre the last election.
So really it was a re-election sweetner of sorts.

Sorry to be going on about Norway, but they have a similar scheme. Well, it's only for under-33s, and the savings have to be spent on housing (incl. mortgage repayments), but it runs constantly. Not a one-off political game.

jmayo wrote: »

It was replaced by the "celtic housing bubble" which allowed developers, estate agents, auctioneers, lawyers (some lawyers got richer than others), builders, land owners and the odd politican or two to get mega rich while the poor first time buyer signed up to a lifetime of debt.
We should also thank the German and possibly even the Norwegian savers for the availability of cheap credit.

And now that the bubble has burst, what are the people of this country left with? F*ck all! I certainly blame it on Bertie and his little friends.

jmayo

hognef wrote: »

Indeed, and while I would want more to be done, they still manage to come up with decent solutions. There are probably more motorways and definitely less traffic in Norway than in Ireland, even if the scenery makes it difficult and a lot more expensive to build. Drilling a tunnel before you can lay out a stretch of road is not cheap!

I have spent some time in Stryn, however, that's a long time ago now. I don't really know if there's a camera in that tunnel, but I wouldn't be very surprised if there is. They tend to put up cameras in the longer tunnels. Have you been there?


And now that the bubble has burst, what are the people of this country left with? F*ck all! I certainly blame it on Bertie and his little friends.

Yeah spent wonderful holiday around Stavanger, Bergen, Geiranger fjord, etc.
The tunnels are really cool, they make our efforts look pathetic.
I loved the lights in the longest one between Laerdal - Aurland.

http://www.bergen-guide.com/538.htm

Reason I asked about the Stavanger one was because mid way through I was driving wee bit above speed limit (30k above I think ) and what looked like a speed camera flashed ?

Only gripe about holiday was everything shuts early, god help you if arrive late.

Food, drink, accomodation was pretty expensive, so next time bringing motorhome full of canned food
I am presuming most of it is indirect taxation ?

Taxes in Scandinavian countries are high but the services offered makes our own look 3rd world.
Also I couldn't see the schenangians our elected representatives pull being tolerated in these countries.

hognef

Shops do tend to close early, so yeah, if you arrive late you're screwed. Buying alcohol is particularly difficult, on Sundays even impossible.

Food and drink is generally quite expensive (again, alcoholic drinks particularly so), but I'd say the reason is generally the high employment costs, and not really taxation (except for alcohol) -- in general VAT is higher in Norway (25%) than in Ireland, but VAT on food is only 14%. Do bring your motorhome full of food -- in fact, Germans are infamous in Norway for doing exactly that.

Not sure if I agree completely on the accommodation costs (I presume you mean hotels etc.) -- I agree it's not cheap, but then it's getting fairly expensive in Ireland as well.

Buying accommodation is another one -- you certainly won't pay €1m for a 100 sqm semi, even in the best areas of Oslo!

Sleepy

Nice move boyos. Keep those cushty elevated pensions safe

mugginsgalore

I agree totally,in fact a wage cut would be in order since they (especially Bertie)cut their time,and its sad that all asides are happy to give themselves long Christmas holidays too,do they really believe that we the employers find them value for money ?no way ,no way.

The_Minister

mugginsgalore wrote: »

I agree totally,in fact a wage cut would be in order since they (especially Bertie)cut their time,and its sad that all asides are happy to give themselves long Christmas holidays too,do they really believe that we the employers find them value for money ?no way ,no way.

*Sigh* Bertie doesn't sit at home in his underwear, watching oprah and drinking Bass for this period. The Ministers keep meeting and discussing things, and they all do work back in their communities. The Dail just doesn't vote on anything, but they still keep doing stuff.

Time Magazine

The_Minister wrote: »

*Sigh* Bertie doesn't sit at home in his underwear, watching oprah and drinking Bass for this period.

I bet Willie O'Dea does, though.

Moriarty

The_Minister wrote: »

The Ministers keep meeting and discussing things, and they all do work back in their communities.

Yes, all that great work in the local community from our national representitives so they can get back in next time round and spend most of their time once again acting like overpowered local councilors. Great stuff.

The_Minister wrote: »

The Dail just doesn't vote on anything, but they still keep doing stuff.

Which begs the question, why shouldn't the Dail be in session then?

murphaph

Moriarty wrote: »

Which begs the question, why shouldn't the Dail be in session then?

Exactly. These goons are elected to the Dail (our legislature) to well, legislate, not sit around their constituencies. This country went badly wrong somewhere.:(