Garda refused pistol licence

rrpc

This was passed on to me by someone else.

The 'Meath Post' was reporting on a court case last week in Dunshaughlin. Garda Super refuses licence for 9mm pistol to a Garda, citing that this was a 'killing machine'. Super said he would grant a licence for a .22 pistol like that used in the Olympics but not for the 9mm pistol. Garda said he wanted the pistol so he could train for the world police games and used Nick Flood's case to back his point. Judge went with the Super and refused to grant the licence...

In the past the assumption was that courts would generally back the plaintiff in these cases, not any more obviously

cavan shooter

Thats rough can he appeal to the circuit, out of interest did the guard have legal representation by a barrister who has fought these cases before. By using the term "killing machine" it was quite obvious that the super was playing to the fear of the masses a good barrister with previous experiences of these cases could have swung it.

This is a classic example of a sportsman being denied is right to participate in his chosen sport.

Flying

That is mental a member of the Police getting refused a license, what next !!

Rew

At least their equally inconsistant with their own as they are with the public!

les45

We have had two applications from Members of the Gardai , both were declined as both appplicants were refused permits for full bore pistols .

John

Flying

I think the few of us that have pistols (Full Bore) are in fact quite lucky then.

I got mine as a joint license with my father who is a currently serving member of the PDF (Army) and I a former member.

It took the guts of 10 days to get the license.

civdef

One situation where a consistent restricted licence procedure could be of benefit..

José Alaninho

Flying wrote: »

I think the few of us that have pistols (Full Bore) are in fact quite lucky then.

I got mine as a joint license with my father who is a currently serving member of the PDF (Army) and I a former member.

It took the guts of 10 days to get the license.

Looks like they prefer the army lads to their own...:rolleyes:

Flying

Is this a particular area as I got mine in the Louth/Meath area also.

Is there anyone else in that area being refused a license and if so on what grounds ?

rrpc

civdef wrote: »

One situation where a consistent restricted licence procedure could be of benefit..

Funny, that same thought crossed my mind. I think that when the restricted list eventually sees the light of day a lot of inconsistency will disapppear. Everyone will know where they stand.

Another question springs to mind though. Wouldn't the officer in question have access to Garda issue firearms and therefore not need to have his own?

civdef

It'd depend on whether they were authorised to carry firearms, of which about 10% of the force are.

les45

He may have access to a issued firearm but how does he purchase ammunition to compete/train with ! I would also be interested in legal opinion on his insurance status while training /competing in any civilian event with a state issued firearm.

John

Mellor

civdef wrote: »

It'd depend on whether they were authorised to carry firearms, of which about 10% of the force are.

I'd say even less than 10%

cavan shooter

I am assuming he represented himself, That guard was naive to go in there if he didn't have a good barrister who understood the subject. A good barrister would make mince meat of the supers comment on Killing machine. Next time he applies go imperial look for a 45 caliber 40 or even 38 and see what happens?? don't mention 9mm

meathshooter

quote from meath post 11/12/07


A garda who applied for a licence to use a semi automatic pistol that was called "a killing machine" was refused his licence and,last week,failed in his appeal at a meath court.
Garda officer Brain Dromey went head-to-head with his colleague Supt Charles Devine at Dunshaughlin Court last week, appealing to Judge John Brophy to overturn the Supts refusal to grant him a licence for a Sig 9mm semi-automatic pistol.
Garda Dromey is training to participate in the upcoming World Police Games, and told the court that he needs the 9mm pistol for target practice.
"The Sig is a combat weapon, designed for military use", Supt Devine told the Judge, adding "the Emergency Response Unit uses it, and it holds up to 17 rounds."
He said he would have no problem issusing a licence to his collegue for a .22 rifle for target practice, such as is used in the Olympics.
Is the Sig used anywhere in Ireland for target practice? the Judge asked the Supt. "It's designed as a killing machine" Supt Devine told the Judge.
The Supt asked his colleague,who was in the witness stand : "What do gardi use this weapon for in the normal course of their duty?"
Garda Dromey replied that it was to defend themselves, and added that the Supt was supposed to make a judgement about the applicant and not the weapon.
"Look, if you were applying for a cannon like the one outside this courthouse, would you not expect me to consider that?" Supt Devine asked. He told Judge Brophy that "in the case of the Dunblane massacre, the banning of handguns was recommended and they are banned in the UK"

Garda Dromey citied the case of the State v's Nicholas Flood, who succeeded in getting a licence for a .308 rifle and said that his participation in the World Police Games depended on him getting a licence for the Sig 9mm.

"This man is looking for a killing machine", the Judge said finally refusing the appeal on hearing from Garda Dromey that the Sig 9mm may not be modified.


"dont think the supt will be on the christmas card list"

Our man in Havana

Since when have the District Courts started hearing FAC appeals?

meathshooter

Bond-007 wrote: »

Since when have the District Courts started hearing FAC appeals?

under the new firearms act I think you can appeal a supt refusal to the district court ,I taught It wasnt implemented yet, and the only recourse was by the high court, this seems to have changed ?

Mellor

cavan shooter wrote: »

Next time he applies go imperial look for a 45 caliber 40 or even 38 and see what happens?? don't mention 9mm

He probably did, apparently he was looking for a SIG, which while it is a 9mm round, its not named as one (like the 9mm Luger for example) its called a .357 SIG, army rangers and the ERU use it, as well as alot of american bodies

revan23

""Look, if you were applying for a cannon like the one outside this courthouse, would you not expect me to consider that?" Supt Devine asked. ""

moron.

Mellor

A simple reply would of ruled out his point.

"If I, or anyone else, was applying for the cannon, it should only be considered abstractly, through me. And as I would have no use or need for the cannon, I should of course be refused."


Or something to that effect, basically turning his point around.

meathshooter

A good barrister would have made mince meat of the supt who is clearly
anti pistol,A few simple yes or no questions by a barrister,

fishdog

Is the Sig used anywhere in Ireland for target practice? the Judge asked the Supt

My reply would have been yes, because it is.

I know sevral people that have 9mm Sigs. I can not understand why a judge will be happy that some people in the ROI have them, yet another person that seems to meet the requirements is refused.

Our man in Havana

I think there will be more problems with appealing refusals to the district courts. The judges tend to side with supers that they are dealing with all the time.
Also there may be security issues as all business in the local courts tends to get reported in the local papers. All and sundry would then know if you had guns and what sort they are. Such matters should be heard in camera and not reported.

meathshooter

how much would it cost to have proper legal council & who would have previous experience in such cases ,ie in the high court ,supt"s might think that they can get away with more in the district court than the high court
as they deal with the judge everyday and probly have lunch together?

Our man in Havana

Your looking at a grand at least to get a barrister to take on the case. Also remember if you are successful in your appeal you can't get your costs back from the state.

les45

Think about the logic of the proposal , the chap in question wanted to compete in a competition that is actively supported by the body he works for , the proposed discilpline is legal and practised in the Irish State ,and the authority charged with issueing the licence wont allow one of its own members to take part in the competition that they send teams to each year ! Can someone expalain to me how the Guard in question could be issued a 226 as his personal issue ,but in the eyes of the same body he is seen as not entitiled to have one in his posession to take part in target shooting competitions. Am I missing something!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sidneyreilly

les45 wrote: »

Think about the logic of the proposal , the chap in question wanted to compete in a competition that is actively supported by the body he works for , the proposed discilpline is legal and practised in the Irish State ,and the authority charged with issueing the licence wont allow one of its own members to take part in the competition that they send teams to each year ! Can someone expalain to me how the Guard in question could be issued a 226 as his personal issue ,but in the eyes of the same body he is seen as not entitiled to have one in his posession to take part in target shooting competitions. Am I missing something!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think that logic in this case has packed it's bags and headed for Rio!

A bit bit peeved at the plaintif's half arsed attempt at this to be honest. Has not done any of us any favours!

cavan shooter

After reading the article, I now have no sympathy for the guard. He should have done his homework as in who he was going to cross swords with and being prepared for the fight.

Can anyone help him?? Like the NARGC cases before..

sdanseo

Mellor wrote: »

I'd say even less than 10%

In fact 3,000 out of 14,00 are licenced, according to the Garda website - although whether or not they carry them is as far as I know their own choice. (Except ERU etc obviously).

les45

If he is a member of a Gun Club , then he can avail of the advice from Des Crofton.

civdef

It might be in a lot of people's interest if cases like this had proper representation, to make sure the right story got across.

IIRC District Court judgements don't form precedent, but a pattern of this sort forming would be a very bad thing.