Garda refused pistol licence

revan23

maybe he should move to a jurisdiction where the super isn't a total arse. seriously tho, it does seem a bit of weak attempt on the guards behalf. he could have put forward a much stronger argument. also we don't know if there are other reasons why he might have been refused (although there doesn't seem to be from the article) just being devils advocate for a second, if the guard in question has no experience of shooting and is not a member of a club and just decided on a whim to get into target shooting then maybe the super has a point. but on the other hand maybe the opposite is true, i dont know.

dromey

hi guys,
just to set the record straight, Superintendent Devine will not issue a licence for a 9mm - period. When the licence was first refused i meet with him in his office to discuss the matter. I offered to change the firearm to a sig x5, but the super refused. he tried to convince me to apply for a .22. i told him that 9mm was minimum caliber accecpted for the world police games. he still refused licence. i consulted with council and lodged an appeal in the district court. it was deceided that it would be better for me to go into court by myself as the case was in front of Judge Brophy and the chance of success was very slight, even if i was represented by council. i pointed out case law to Judge Brophy and quoted case stated in high court where super must consider applicant and not the firearm. Judge Brophy chose to ignore case law. When the super made his remark about the cannon outside the court i Quoted section 4 subsection 1 of the principal firearms act 1925 which states that you must have reason to have the firearm applied for. Once again the Judge chose to ignore this. papers have been served on the super for an appeal to the circuit court and i have council ready to go into court and proceed with application. i have also a bill of sale for a .38 revolver going into Superintendent devine next week so it will be interesting to see how he looks at this application.

bunny shooter

All the best. Hope it goes well for you.

Try a 40 S&W ?

fishdog

Superintendent Devine will not issue a licence for a 9mm

I offered to change the firearm to a sig x5,

From what calibre?

Are you a member of a club?

Did you point out that other people in the country have this firearm in this calibre?

chem

Good on you dormey. Wish you the best. The old irish way of doing things has to be changed. Its a pitty common sence is not always that common! Did you ask the court to see the licence for the cannon outside? As under the laws they say they uphold it needs a licence!!!

meathshooter

dromey wrote: »

hi guys,
just to set the record straight, Superintendent Devine will not issue a licence for a 9mm - period. When the licence was first refused i meet with him in his office to discuss the matter. I offered to change the firearm to a sig x5, but the super refused. he tried to convince me to apply for a .22. i told him that 9mm was minimum caliber accecpted for the world police games. he still refused licence. i consulted with council and lodged an appeal in the district court. it was deceided that it would be better for me to go into court by myself as the case was in front of Judge Brophy and the chance of success was very slight, even if i was represented by council. i pointed out case law to Judge Brophy and quoted case stated in high court where super must consider applicant and not the firearm. Judge Brophy chose to ignore case law. When the super made his remark about the cannon outside the court i Quoted section 4 subsection 1 of the principal firearms act 1925 which states that you must have reason to have the firearm applied for. Once again the Super chose to ignore this. papers have been served on the super for an appeal to the circuit court and i have council ready to go into court and proceed with application. i have also a bill of sale for a .38 revolver going into Superintendent devine next week so it will be interesting to see how he looks at this application.

Good council should do it for you as its the supt devine "private policy",I wish you the best of luck, can your union do anything for you

dromey

fishdog wrote: »

My reply would have been yes, because it is.

I know sevral people that have 9mm Sigs. I can not understand why a judge will be happy that some people in the ROI have them, yet another person that seems to meet the requirements is refused.

i told the Judge in direct evidence that IPSC competitions were held on a regular basis in tullamore and that anything from a 9mm to .45acp were used. the Judge asked Superintendent Devine if this was true. The Super said he didnt know what was used in other parts of the country and that he was only responsible for his district. i meet the man in his office in ashbourne on the 7th of august 2007 to discuss his refusal of licence. at this meeting he told me that "he knew that other supers around the country were handing these licences out like water"!! how can you win against someone who lies on oath and has the Judge on his side??

fishdog

If you are not in a club and you have not had firearms licences for sevral years you stand very little hope.

Have you a history of taking part in competitions with firearms?

Have you done safety and training courses?

Have you visited a pistol range recently/ever?

Can you provide good security for this firearm?

All of these questions will be inportant when considering your application.

dromey

fishdog wrote: »

If you are not in a club and you have not had firearms licences for sevral years you stand very little hope.

Have you a history of taking part in competitions with firearms?

Have you done safety and training courses?

Have you visited a pistol range recently/ever?

how's it going?
i have completed the handgun course in the Job, i have 3 shotguns, a .22 rifle and the super gave me a .308 the same day as he refused the 9mm. i have since got a licence for a .22 sig mosquito. i am a member of courtlough, naul gun club, the midlands national shooting centre and the garda clay pigeon club. i have competed in leinster leagues and the summer leagues in courtlough as well as garda competitions. all of which are clay pigeon not pistol.

dromey

meathshooter wrote: »

Good council should do it for you as its the supt devine "private policy",I wish you the best of luck, can your union do anything for you

unfortunately no, the gra are a useless shower of yes men that are afraid to unsettle the waters!!

Keith186

Judge John Brophy has a repytation of giving tough sentences so he might be picky .
Probably would have got it if it was a different judge to be honest.

dromey

fishdog wrote: »

My reply would have been yes, because it is.

I know sevral people that have 9mm Sigs. I can not understand why a judge will be happy that some people in the ROI have them, yet another person that seems to meet the requirements is refused.

the totally crazy thing is that Superintendent Devine has issued three 9mm licences, one .40, one .45 and a number of revolvers in the last two years. There has been a sudden change of heart and one would suspect that this change of heart will be seen in more and more garda districts in the coming months. the rumors within the job are that when Brian Lenihan signs the statutory implement next year giving power to the rest of the Criminal Justice Bill 2006 ALL handguns above a certain caliber are going to be confiscated. Basically the new law is going to give permanent legislation to replace the temporary order of the 1970's, or so i have been told by two different members of Garda Management in the last week, one of whom is a firearms officer within the job!!:mad:

fishdog

how's it going?
i have completed the handgun course in the Job, i have 3 shotguns, a .22 rifle and the super gave me a .308 the same day as he refused the 9mm. i have since got a licence for a .22 sig mosquito. i am a member of courtlough, naul gun club, the midlands national shooting centre and the garda clay pigeon club. i have competed in leinster leagues and the summer leagues in courtlough as well as garda competitions. all of which are clay pigeon not pistol.

Fair enough.

I think it is crazy that you were not given a licence. Are you going to let this go or take it further??

I think you will win in the end if you do not give up.

Best of luck!

dromey

Keith186 wrote: »

Judge John Brophy has a repytation of giving tough sentences so he might be picky .
Probably would have got it if it was a different judge to be honest.

i certainly think so! the first time my appeal was before Dunshaughlin District Court the Superintendent looked for a one month adjournment. when i tried to object Judge Brophy wouldnt listen to me and he warned me that " i better have a bloody good excuse to have a 9mm, and that he wasnt inclined to issue a 9mm licence in this day and age". that was before he listened to any evidence in the case. He done the same thing in Maynooth District Court on a previous occassion, except in this case he dissmissed the application without hearing any evidence at all. The case was taken to the High Court and his decision was over turned

Our man in Havana

I hope you appeal this. You have loads of support here and I am sure we can offer any assistance necessary.

I don't think this new district courts appeal system is going to help shooters as the judges will reject the appellants arguments anyways and you then have to go back to the high court to get a fair hearing.

dromey

when i first appealed the Superintendents refusal to the District Court the Criminal Justice Act 2006 had only been signed into law a couple of months previous. In the new Act it says nothing about what course of action is open to you if you loose your appeal in the District Court, so it was unclear what i could do if ( or rather when ) Judge Brophy refused my appeal. As a result of this, a decesion was made for me to go into court without representation and bring the appeal myself in the hope that Judge Brophy would error in law thus allowing me to enter Judicial review prooceedings through the High Court. In my opinion he did error by ignoring case law relevant to my case. However this is now irrelevant as a case was won in the High Court last week where the High Court Judge ruled that any decesion made in the District Court can be appealed to the Circuit Court as a matter of course. So hopefully you can see now why i went into the District without representation. It was not a half arsed attempt, but rather there was method in my madness and hopefully common sense will prevail in the Circuit Court.

bullets

Good Luck to you! Its a pleasant change to see a member of the Gardai
actually interested in shooting and making themselves known to the boards.

~B

martinr5232

Best of luck with that.
Everyone knows what john brophy is like if only he was so hard on criminals.

meathshooter

dromey wrote: »

the totally crazy thing is that Superintendent Devine has issued three 9mm licences, one .40, one .45 and a number of revolvers in the last two years. There has been a sudden change of heart and one would suspect that this change of heart will be seen in more and more garda districts in the coming months. the rumors within the job are that when Brian Lenihan signs the statutory implement next year giving power to the rest of the Criminal Justice Bill 2006 ALL handguns above a certain caliber are going to be confiscated. Basically the new law is going to give permanent legislation to replace the temporary order of the 1970's, or so i have been told by two different members of Garda Management in the last week, one of whom is a firearms officer within the job!!:mad:

I hope Brian lenihan realises there are 250000 licenced firearms in the country
thats a lot of votes,In a recent study in the UK concluded that the handgun ban had little or no effect on crime infact gun crime had increased

martinr5232

Iheard that a long time ago from a freind of mine in guarda hq involved with weapons.But really a pistol is a short range weapon what differance does it make if its nine mil .45 or .38 if you were that way inclined to be using it for unsociable activity.
Is it much easier to get a .22 pistol can anyone tell me.

meathshooter

martinr5232 wrote: »

Iheard that a long time ago from a freind of mine in guarda hq involved with weapons.But really a pistol is a short range weapon what differance does it make if its nine mil .45 or .38 if you were that way inclined to be using it for unsociable activity.
Is it much easier to get a .22 pistol can anyone tell me.

Im not surprized its been rumored a long time ,especially with the actions
of supt devine and others,as usual criminals will continue to obtain illegal firearms (fully automatic high powered machine guns as recent garda seizures
have found) And the ordinary law abideing citizen is used as a scapegoat

bunny shooter

Sounds like he's on a personal vendetta alright. Fair dues to you for putting up a fight. A lot of people would have given up by now.

bunny shooter

bullets wrote: »

Good Luck to you! Its a pleasant change to see a member of the Gardai
actually interested in shooting and making themselves known to the boards.

~B

I know two Gardai who I count as personal friends of mine that are into shooting. The fact they are gardai is irrevelant really.

fishdog

In a recent study in the UK concluded that the handgun ban had little or no effect on crime infact gun crime had increased

Gun crime has risen by 500% since the handgun ban.

kowloon

martinr5232 wrote: »

But really a pistol is a short range weapon what differance does it make if its nine mil .45 or .38 if you were that way inclined to be using it for unsociable activity.

I think the logic goes as follows:
.45 is twice as more than .22, only a nasty bad man that sells drugs would want to license anything biggerer than a .22. I know this from my edjumacation. I like cake.

revan23

and most nasty bad men are not stupid enough to use a legal, licenced in their own name firearms for crime.

i wonder what the statistics for legaly held guns involved in crime are (i mean by the owners, not stolen guns)

chem

meathshooter wrote: »

Im not surprized its been rumored a long time ,especially with the actions
of supt devine and others,as usual criminals will continue to obtain illegal firearms (fully automatic high powered machine guns as recent garda seizures
have found) And the ordinary law abideing citizen is used as a scapegoat

Lets face it, the supers are crying into the ministers ear that these "killing machines" should not be in the hands of licenced shooters. You can trow any amount of stats that show its not licenced shooters thats the problem, but this will all be steam rolled over. There mind is already made up and pistols will be taken back. The meetings with different shooting groups are only for show.

meathstevie

Ah jeezes lads, Brophy being the court jester instead of judge again, I don't believe you. The killing machine argument is bloody pathetic. If you apply this line of thought soon all guns can fall under a blanket ban if that sort of characters is left in charge of firearms licensing. As someone mentioned here above you have to consider the shooter not the firearm and the applicant's reason for obtaining a 9mm given his longstanding involvement with shooting sports puts his motivation quite clearly beyond doubt. For feck's sake, he wants to represent the policeforce he works for and the same people are refusing him the opportunity to do so:(. What's the district again ? Some unruly tribal area in Absurdistan ?

sidneyreilly

dromey wrote: »

It was not a half arsed attempt, but rather there was method in my madness and hopefully common sense will prevail in the Circuit Court.

I offer my apologies for my earlier comment so.

dromey

sidneyreilly wrote: »

I offer my apologies for my earlier comment so.

No worries! I havent read the article in the Meath Post yet, but from the quotes on the message board it looks like they didnt report exactly what went on in court. Big portions of evidence seem to have been left out. The case went on for over 20 minutes. One thing that i cant believe the papers didnt latch onto was one of Superintendent Devine's remarks. When he was cross examining me and trying to lead me into answering his questions his way, he proffessed that the Sig P226 was a weapon of offence used by Police forces world wide. he went on to say that the Garda ERU were issued with the sig and that they used it offensively. I corrected Superintendent Devine and told him that in my opinion no member of the force is allowed use any weapon offensively, all weapons issued to Gardai whether it be a baton or a firearm, are to be used defensively. Clearly the Super is not in touch with reality!! :eek: